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The Official PC building thread - 4th Edition

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#5826
I tried 2 others that were free and ended up with Classic Shell that boots into the desktop.And as far as I can tell your absolutely right none are perfect or half way there so far
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#5827
So why get windows 8, if people want to dumb it down? I'll try to answer that.

Windows 8 code, handles state of the art processors better, correct? Essentially, all around optimized code. But can't/won't windows 7 get some or all of those refinements?



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
#5828
I perceive Windows 8 as an aesthetic upgrade really, it looks a lot nicer than W7 imo, and it boots a lot faster, but that's about all that wows me about it.
The double whammy for me was the opportunity to get a legitimate license for Windows on several machines for cheap.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
#5829
Price was what sold me to try it out but it was an upgrade that took out the Win 7 pro that was legal.Big L on my forehead like when i got married.
#5830
That hasn't happened to me, but then I deliberately used the "clean install" method.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
#5831
Originally posted by ZoSoIV:
WindowsXP is going to lose support in the near future May of 2014 ,i think so it wouldn't make sense to upgrade my machine and still use XP..i see no other choice other than Windows7 I've worked with it some and like it so far...i milked this machine way to long and need an update bad..the DDR2 ram and small HDDs are almost stone age lol...BTW I'm going with two 1TB HDDs which brands are leading the pack?...I'm sticking with a updated Asus MB and Intel QuadCore and a updated Videocard and DDR3 ram...the ODDs(other than maybe getting a Blu-Ray drive) power supply and case are fine..should be a pretty simply upgrade actually..this big Antec 1200 case is easy to work with, plenty of room

ZoSoIV,

I bought two WD 1TB Black Edition drives. They had been on sale for $79.00 during the black Friday sales. I suspect if you keep looking, the price will go down again before Christmas. I bought them for storage, but I wanted more speed when I transfer files, so I settled for The WD black, since its already a fast drive. A 5 year warranty doesn't hurt either!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


#5832
cool Russ thanks just what I'm looking for..want a quality/fast HDD and they fit the bill..just bought an external Toshiba 1TB for 69.00 to backup what i have now to get ready for the new build..seems to be a great HDD so far

ok looking at this core ok guys?

Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501

and need a Asus MB also? not really gaming anymore but encoding DVDs etc so def need a high quailty MB

thanks for the input guys
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Nov 2012 @ 17:15




Antec 1200 Full-Tower Case/Thermaltake 750-Watt PS/ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Mobo/Western Digital Black WD5003AZEX 500GB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" HDD/NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card/CORSAIR DOMINATOR PLATINUM 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 /Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics/CORSAIR Hydro Series H80 (CWCH80) High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler/3-Plextor PX-810SA Sata Drives/Asus IPS 27"PB278Q Monitor 2560 x 1440 resolution,5ms respone time/OS Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
#5833
I should've explained better. When i upgraded to Win8 from Win7 activation code was taken for 7 so I can't go back to 7 with the old code except to buy it again or borrow a code.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Nov 2012 @ 19:28
#5834
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Ripper. I use DVD rebuilder frequently on Windows 7 X64. Not one problem, not one tweak. But then, I don't use the UAC. It's the first thing I disable. Silliest thing I've ever seen in a windows OS!
Yeah I think it was merely a UAC issue, which should be disabled for any half competent PC user anyway.


#5835
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Russ, isn't it possible, that you simply bought a mouse that slipped through the cracks? And I say again... My positive experience with windows 7 has been FAR GREATER than that of XP. NO exaggeration here :p

Oman7,
I don't think so! If I did, I bought two of them that didn't work properly. The point being that I bought M$ so I wouldn't have compatibility problems. It says right on the box that they are Win 7 compatible! It sometimes slows the computer to a crawl, literally so slow that the mouse pointer appears not to move at all. The HDD light goes on solid, and it appears it's locked up, but it isn't, it's just in super slow motion. I mean come on, who's kidding who here? I/O problems with something as simple as a wireless mouse, in the 21st century? ROFLMSOAO!! It did it with the 10909t, the PIIx4-965, and the FX-8320! The advantage of having two of everything, except the CPU, and testing everything, I concluded it's the Mouse or a problem with it's software.

Another more serious problem, is disabling Older software claiming that your computer might be at risk so it's been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. Sometimes you get a fix in a day or two, or it could be months. I use XP Office. I've used it since I originally bought XP. It was the first productivity App I bought for it! I can write an entire book, with illustrations and pictures, in any language in the world, and provide the printer the "plates", either electronic or real! to print it with! I have CS6, CS9 and Enterprise (CS10 I think) as well. My preference is to use XP-Office, that I paid close to $400 for originally! It's also not limited to one computer! I don't appreciate it when it doesn't work!

The GUI is the biggest joke I've even seen. Do you realize that you can get so lost in the hopelessly endless, "if this doesn't work try this" trap", that you can use up most of your resources before you ever find what you are looking for.

Windows media player, is another total piece of crap! Half the time, Sub Titles don't work, or only partly work, with no cue for starting the movie again, where it was previously stopped. It offers literally no video controls, half assed scaling, so the picture doesn't always play full screen side to side, when you want it to.

What we got with Win 7, is low wage, just out of school programers, who sacrificed performance and function for bling! Here's a list of things that are missing from various parts of Win 7!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fe...ed_in_Windows_7

I'll warn you ahead of time, what M$ has done. It's not just that things are missing, but some are only partly missing, and function only within certain parts of the GUI, but not all of it. In effect, they are blocking some components of the GUI system, so they can be used by the parts of it that do work!

It also affects third party software, like AVG, where you can't access the virus vault, because of the work arounds in the GUI. What will really drive people nuts is that the real oddity is that some programs will run perfect from the desktop, but not from the program list, and vice versa! That should be fun!

The bottom line is that Win 7 is not a complete OS, it's a work in progress that contains many kludges. It's been 3 years since Win 7 was released, isn't it about time for some progress? I think that's a fair question!

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


#5836
Originally posted by Russ:
It's been 3 years since Win 7 was released, isn't it about time for some progress? I think that's a fair question!

Yeah, the progress is called windows 8. With its own set of problems.

You know what - XP is a pretty good OS, lol.

Originally posted by Sam:
I perceive Windows 8 as an aesthetic upgrade really, it looks a lot nicer than W7 imo, and it boots a lot faster, but that's about all that wows me about it.
The double whammy for me was the opportunity to get a legitimate license for Windows on several machines for cheap.

Sam, what do you mean, "looks a lot nicer." How can something look nicer? - the type of see-through borders on the windows - what? I'm serious and not being a bit sarcastic - I do like the glassy borders as started with vista - I forget what you call it - and I see that effect continued with Win 7 - so what happens with 8 that makes it look a lot nicer? (Sorry - I haven't googled it or seen any youtubes.)

Support or no support, I run XP on all my stuff, and will continue to do so for many years to come, way after support has ended, because I know how to fix it when it breaks.

Eventually hardware will come out that will no longer run under XP - and THEN I'll have some tough decisions to make - but XP is the first widespread NT-based OS after Windows 98, and all of the rest are also NT-based OS's, so I would think most things that come out will continue to run on XP - state of the art games not included which I run on windows 7.

Also, I do not run XP on any rig with more than 4 gigs memory, which means the 8 gig phenom with 1/2 gig 3650 graphic card which is used as an HTPC running under Vista, and the 8 gig 9450 with 3 gig X 2 crossfire 7950 gaming rig running under Windows 7 (and XP on the other drive - booting to XP through bios as Sam had once recommended.)

Having become familiar with Vista on the HTPC, and seen glitches here and there and everywhere, even something as simple as getting it to register the type of screen saver you want - and not change that setting back on the next login (it will not lock it in on one user account - seriously) - I don't really see what you mean, Shaff, about Vista being so good - BUT - I will say this in its favor, Vista has the all-time BEST screensavers. Yes, it's true. LOL

Originally posted by Ripper:
Yeah I think it was merely a UAC issue, which should be disabled for any half competent PC user anyway.

Yeah, I took the UAC off of my windows 7, (mostly because the Sleeping Dogs life cheat ... er I meant - trainer - said to do that) and it's so nice to be able to load Trixx or whatever, without the screen dimming and all that BS - BUT - isn't the real issue if a virus attempts to get control - isn't all the checking supposed to increase security?

Rich
#5837
Originally posted by theonejrs:
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Russ, isn't it possible, that you simply bought a mouse that slipped through the cracks? And I say again... My positive experience with windows 7 has been FAR GREATER than that of XP. NO exaggeration here :p

Oman7,
I don't think so! If I did, I bought two of them that didn't work properly. The point being that I bought M$ so I wouldn't have compatibility problems. It says right on the box that they are Win 7 compatible! It sometimes slows the computer to a crawl, literally so slow that the mouse pointer appears not to move at all. The HDD light goes on solid, and it appears it's locked up, but it isn't, it's just in super slow motion. I mean come on, who's kidding who here? I/O problems with something as simple as a wireless mouse, in the 21st century? ROFLMSOAO!! It did it with the 10909t, the PIIx4-965, and the FX-8320! The advantage of having two of everything, except the CPU, and testing everything, I concluded it's the Mouse or a problem with it's software.

Another more serious problem, is disabling Older software claiming that your computer might be at risk so it's been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. Sometimes you get a fix in a day or two, or it could be months. I use XP Office. I've used it since I originally bought XP. It was the first productivity App I bought for it! I can write an entire book, with illustrations and pictures, in any language in the world, and provide the printer the "plates", either electronic or real! to print it with! I have CS6, CS9 and Enterprise (CS10 I think) as well. My preference is to use XP-Office, that I paid close to $400 for originally! It's also not limited to one computer! I don't appreciate it when it doesn't work!

The GUI is the biggest joke I've even seen. Do you realize that you can get so lost in the hopelessly endless, "if this doesn't work try this" trap", that you can use up most of your resources before you ever find what you are looking for.

Windows media player, is another total piece of crap! Half the time, Sub Titles don't work, or only partly work, with no cue for starting the movie again, where it was previously stopped. It offers literally no video controls, half assed scaling, so the picture doesn't always play full screen side to side, when you want it to.

What we got with Win 7, is low wage, just out of school programers, who sacrificed performance and function for bling! Here's a list of things that are missing from various parts of Win 7!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fe...ed_in_Windows_7

I'll warn you ahead of time, what M$ has done. It's not just that things are missing, but some are only partly missing, and function only within certain parts of the GUI, but not all of it. In effect, they are blocking some components of the GUI system, so they can be used by the parts of it that do work!

It also affects third party software, like AVG, where you can't access the virus vault, because of the work arounds in the GUI. What will really drive people nuts is that the real oddity is that some programs will run perfect from the desktop, but not from the program list, and vice versa! That should be fun!
I.
The bottom line is that Win 7 is not a complete OS, it's a work in progress that contains many kludges. It's been 3 years since Win 7 was released, isn't it about time for some progress? I think that's a fair question!

Best Regards,
Russ

You complain about incomplete OS? Your beloved XP will have had updates and hotfixes every month for the last 10years up till the end when they just arbitrarily say "we wont support it anymore". 10 years of fixes, isn't it time for progress?

#5838
Windows Vista and newer have a different version of the NT kernel compared to XP. Software compatibility is sometimes hurt by this and other things and that will only get worse as time goes on. This is largely because of the 64 bit initiative, but also true for a lot of 32 bit software as well due to newer compilers that aren't well-supported by XP sometimes being used to optimize for more modern machines better.

Also, for those of us who remember all the way back to before XP, XP wasn't really great from launch to its second service pack. Compared to Windows 2000, it was like Vista compared to XP SP3. Horribly bloated, inferior performance on machines of the time, a lot more driver instability, etc. It took XP way too many years before I could call it great for me to mock newer versions of Windows yet.

Besides, I don't really have any trouble with Vista through 8 right now. Driver compatibility with modern hardware is fairly great (it might be annoying for some of my 90s to early 2000s stuff to not have proper drivers, but over ten years old, that starts to become understandable and it's not MS's fault anyway), performance on modern hardware is fairly great, and so on. Honestly, I also like Windows 8 more than 7. Some things are a lot faster and I've never had the slowness issues that I sometimes read about. I find that these issues are usually caused by having the wrong USB drivers, just a suggestion to look into. I've seen them at Tom's forums a few times and managed to get the issue fixed every time or someone else did by posting links to the right driver(s) to use.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2012 @ 4:06
#5839
Very well put Blazorthon! ;)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
#5840
XP was never bloated but it did have problems with compatibility/driver issues at first and wasn't stable until SP1 when it became a good OS at that point. Vista is still bloatware crap that can't run older programs, but Windows 7 is pretty good and unlike Vista I can run old programs and games that I can't run with Vista 32 or 64 versions. XP had problems because they made a big jump from their gaming OS and business OS's, which were separate prior, and they merged them together, ME didn't help in the conversion either.

I use AVG and it runs fine on Windows 7. I've installed it on many PC's and never had one problem attributed to the OS or in AVG's operation. This is with both free versions and full suite packages too.
#5841
Originally posted by Mr-Movies:
XP was never bloated but it did have problems with compatibility/driver issues at first and wasn't stable until SP1 when it became a good OS at that point. Vista is still bloatware crap that can't run older programs, but Windows 7 is pretty good and unlike Vista I can run old programs and games that I can't run with Vista 32 or 64 versions. XP had problems because they made a big jump from their gaming OS and business OS's, which were separate prior, and they merged them together, ME didn't help in the conversion either.

I use AVG and it runs fine on Windows 7. I've installed it on many PC's and never had one problem attributed to the OS or in AVG's operation. This is with both free versions and full suite packages too.

Compared to Windows 2000, Windows XP was very bloated. I didn't consider it good until SP2, but I suppose that is a more subjective and per-situation sort of thing. However, the simple fact is at least in every situation that I'm aware of, XP needed much more system performance and capacity than Windows 2000 needed to run similarly well. I booted up two old 2000 and ME machines a year or two back and they ran better with 128MB and 192MB of SDRAM-100 with a weak P3 each better than XP ran on a system with 512MB of DDR2-533 and a decent for the time P4 630 (3GHz, 2MB L2 cache, and Hyper-Threading) until I threw in another 2GB of RAM for the XP system. XP had very bad resource management.

I don't know of any programs that can't run on Vista that do run on 7 unless you count XP mode. What programs are you talking about?

You may be right about XP's issues being contributed to by MS merging professiona and home use into a single system, but that was not nearly the only issue. It shared a lot of issues with Vista. Like Vista, XP was a LOT more bloated than its predecessor. Lot Vista, it had a lot of driver issues up to even a few years after its launch. It had its good qualities eve nearly on, but the same can be said for even Vista and 8. For example, Vista brought in a much more complete 64 bit experience than XP managed to do and had some innovative changes (and some very bad losses, but still).
#5842
Originally posted by Deadrum33:
Originally posted by theonejrs:
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Russ, isn't it possible, that you simply bought a mouse that slipped through the cracks? And I say again... My positive experience with windows 7 has been FAR GREATER than that of XP. NO exaggeration here :p

Oman7,
I don't think so! If I did, I bought two of them that didn't work properly. The point being that I bought M$ so I wouldn't have compatibility problems. It says right on the box that they are Win 7 compatible! It sometimes slows the computer to a crawl, literally so slow that the mouse pointer appears not to move at all. The HDD light goes on solid, and it appears it's locked up, but it isn't, it's just in super slow motion. I mean come on, who's kidding who here? I/O problems with something as simple as a wireless mouse, in the 21st century? ROFLMSOAO!! It did it with the 10909t, the PIIx4-965, and the FX-8320! The advantage of having two of everything, except the CPU, and testing everything, I concluded it's the Mouse or a problem with it's software.

Another more serious problem, is disabling Older software claiming that your computer might be at risk so it's been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. Sometimes you get a fix in a day or two, or it could be months. I use XP Office. I've used it since I originally bought XP. It was the first productivity App I bought for it! I can write an entire book, with illustrations and pictures, in any language in the world, and provide the printer the "plates", either electronic or real! to print it with! I have CS6, CS9 and Enterprise (CS10 I think) as well. My preference is to use XP-Office, that I paid close to $400 for originally! It's also not limited to one computer! I don't appreciate it when it doesn't work!

The GUI is the biggest joke I've even seen. Do you realize that you can get so lost in the hopelessly endless, "if this doesn't work try this" trap", that you can use up most of your resources before you ever find what you are looking for.

Windows media player, is another total piece of crap! Half the time, Sub Titles don't work, or only partly work, with no cue for starting the movie again, where it was previously stopped. It offers literally no video controls, half assed scaling, so the picture doesn't always play full screen side to side, when you want it to.

What we got with Win 7, is low wage, just out of school programers, who sacrificed performance and function for bling! Here's a list of things that are missing from various parts of Win 7!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fe...ed_in_Windows_7

I'll warn you ahead of time, what M$ has done. It's not just that things are missing, but some are only partly missing, and function only within certain parts of the GUI, but not all of it. In effect, they are blocking some components of the GUI system, so they can be used by the parts of it that do work!

It also affects third party software, like AVG, where you can't access the virus vault, because of the work arounds in the GUI. What will really drive people nuts is that the real oddity is that some programs will run perfect from the desktop, but not from the program list, and vice versa! That should be fun!
I.
The bottom line is that Win 7 is not a complete OS, it's a work in progress that contains many kludges. It's been 3 years since Win 7 was released, isn't it about time for some progress? I think that's a fair question!

Best Regards,
Russ

You complain about incomplete OS? Your beloved XP will have had updates and hotfixes every month for the last 10years up till the end when they just arbitrarily say "we wont support it anymore". 10 years of fixes, isn't it time for progress?

Deadrum33,

It's not that XP is "beloved", it simply works every time! Win 7 left me stranded for over 6 weeks, when it would no longer start! Fortunately I had it installed in Dual Boot with XP (tricky), so I was still able to work. For 47 days, Win 7 wouldn't work! It just gave me a bsod every time I tried to start it! A 47 day delay with the main OS out of commission, is not acceptable! At least not to me! Sure I could have wiped the drive and started over, it's only a couple of weeks of work, to get it all installed again

Another thing about Win 7 that drives me nuts is they are constantly removing programs that I use all the time! Here's a partial list to give you an idea of what they removed.
7Zip, Win.rar, convertXtoDVD, Registry crawler 4, Hardware Monitor Pro, Sandra, TuneUp Utilities 2012 (permanently crippled), 1 click Fixer (permanently crippled), CleanMyPc, and Dragon Speaking. When I say crippled, I meant permanently! You can't use it on any computer! That's outrageous! My bought and paid for, legit software! And don't even get me started on this 1 copy of the OS per computer, at outrageous prices. Vista was Micro$oft's problem. It was M$ that wasted all that money on trying to fix Vista. They need to stop making us pay for it! Rant over!

BTW, some here were looking for info about setting up dual boot with XP. Here's the best guide I could find.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/80...ndows-7-xp.html

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


#5843
Originally posted by Blazorthon:
Originally posted by Mr-Movies:
XP was never bloated but it did have problems with compatibility/driver issues at first and wasn't stable until SP1 when it became a good OS at that point. Vista is still bloatware crap that can't run older programs, but Windows 7 is pretty good and unlike Vista I can run old programs and games that I can't run with Vista 32 or 64 versions. XP had problems because they made a big jump from their gaming OS and business OS's, which were separate prior, and they merged them together, ME didn't help in the conversion either.

I use AVG and it runs fine on Windows 7. I've installed it on many PC's and never had one problem attributed to the OS or in AVG's operation. This is with both free versions and full suite packages too.

Compared to Windows 2000, Windows XP was very bloated. I didn't consider it good until SP2, but I suppose that is a more subjective and per-situation sort of thing. However, the simple fact is at least in every situation that I'm aware of, XP needed much more system performance and capacity than Windows 2000 needed to run similarly well. I booted up two old 2000 and ME machines a year or two back and they ran better with 128MB and 192MB of SDRAM-100 with a weak P3 each better than XP ran on a system with 512MB of DDR2-533 and a decent for the time P4 630 (3GHz, 2MB L2 cache, and Hyper-Threading) until I threw in another 2GB of RAM for the XP system. XP had very bad resource management.

I don't know of any programs that can't run on Vista that do run on 7 unless you count XP mode. What programs are you talking about?

You may be right about XP's issues being contributed to by MS merging professiona and home use into a single system, but that was not nearly the only issue. It shared a lot of issues with Vista. Like Vista, XP was a LOT more bloated than its predecessor. Lot Vista, it had a lot of driver issues up to even a few years after its launch. It had its good qualities eve nearly on, but the same can be said for even Vista and 8. For example, Vista brought in a much more complete 64 bit experience than XP managed to do and had some innovative changes (and some very bad losses, but still).

Blazorthon, re:"some very bad losses, but still".

Visa was Micro$oft's mistake, not ours. Why are we being made to pay for it?

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


#5844
Originally posted by Blazorthon:
Originally posted by Mr-Movies:
XP was never bloated but it did have problems with compatibility/driver issues at first and wasn't stable until SP1 when it became a good OS at that point. Vista is still bloatware crap that can't run older programs, but Windows 7 is pretty good and unlike Vista I can run old programs and games that I can't run with Vista 32 or 64 versions. XP had problems because they made a big jump from their gaming OS and business OS's, which were separate prior, and they merged them together, ME didn't help in the conversion either.

I use AVG and it runs fine on Windows 7. I've installed it on many PC's and never had one problem attributed to the OS or in AVG's operation. This is with both free versions and full suite packages too.

Compared to Windows 2000, Windows XP was very bloated. I didn't consider it good until SP2, but I suppose that is a more subjective and per-situation sort of thing. However, the simple fact is at least in every situation that I'm aware of, XP needed much more system performance and capacity than Windows 2000 needed to run similarly well. I booted up two old 2000 and ME machines a year or two back and they ran better with 128MB and 192MB of SDRAM-100 with a weak P3 each better than XP ran on a system with 512MB of DDR2-533 and a decent for the time P4 630 (3GHz, 2MB L2 cache, and Hyper-Threading) until I threw in another 2GB of RAM for the XP system. XP had very bad resource management.

I don't know of any programs that can't run on Vista that do run on 7 unless you count XP mode. What programs are you talking about?

You may be right about XP's issues being contributed to by MS merging professiona and home use into a single system, but that was not nearly the only issue. It shared a lot of issues with Vista. Like Vista, XP was a LOT more bloated than its predecessor. Lot Vista, it had a lot of driver issues up to even a few years after its launch. It had its good qualities eve nearly on, but the same can be said for even Vista and 8. For example, Vista brought in a much more complete 64 bit experience than XP managed to do and had some innovative changes (and some very bad losses, but still).
There are tons of programs that won't install or run on Vista that do operate fine on XP and Seven, tons.... I play with a lot of games and business programs so I see more then the average Joe I guess.

NT/2000 was only good for business and ME was a gaming platform and poor one at that. XP was the blending of the two and because of that it did have more overhead but I wouldn't call that bloat. Also XP was built for a stronger base then 2K/ME so it should be that 2K or ME will run better on older gear, that is almost always true. ME and Vista bloat with time and Vista is a major resource hog, Seven is not and actually Windows 8 actually even performs better resource wise then 7. Vista is pretty and I think that is what people like, functionality doesn't seem to be important to Vista lovers. Unlike Russ I don't mind change as long as it is good unfortunately too often change is bad i.e, Metro....
#5845
Originally posted by Mr-Movies:

There are tons of programs that won't install or run on Vista that do operate fine on XP and Seven, tons.... I play with a lot of games and business programs so I see more then the average Joe I guess.

NT/2000 was only good for business and ME was a gaming platform and poor one at that. XP was the blending of the two and because of that it did have more overhead but I wouldn't call that bloat. Also XP was built for a stronger base then 2K/ME so it should be that 2K or ME will run better on older gear, that is almost always true. ME and Vista bloat with time and Vista is a major resource hog, Seven is not and actually Windows 8 actually even performs better resource wise then 7. Vista is pretty and I think that is what people like, functionality doesn't seem to be important to Vista lovers. Unlike Russ I don't mind change as long as it is good unfortunately too often change is bad i.e, Metro....
On XP and not Vista, yes, but I don't know any programs that do run on 7 and not on Vista. Can you give any examples?

XP wasn't just geared for newer, somewhat more modern systems, it was very bloated for its time. None of my computers from that time today nor back then performed as well for standard usage as my ME systems that worked and my 2000 systems that both had inferior hardware, not just similar hardware. XP needed several times more RAM capacity/performance and CPU performance just to run comparably well.

ME didn't bloat even as badly over time as some of my XP systems, so I'll have to disagree with you on that too. ME was simply a much less stable system in my experience even to this day.

I know that 8 performs better than 7 and 7 better than Vista, but I think that you are over-exaggerating the differences overall. I have systems with nearly identical setups except for the OS (specifically for testing stuff between OSs with as few variables as reasonably possible) and my experience has not been quite similar to the performance differences you describe with Vista. I never liked Vista and I still don't, but still. 7 is a major resource hog compared to even XP and isn't a huge improvement from Vista, although it is a big improvement in managing what it does use in my experience.

Basically 7 doesn't seem to use more than around 15-25% less memory and such than Vista, but it can run much better at low memory and CPU capacity/performance systems. For example, 7 seems to run much better than Vista for me on low end systems (say P4/HT with 1GB of DDR2 memory), but the difference really pans off at say 4GB with a much more modern CPU such as even an Athlon II at around or over 3GHz and DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 or better for the RAM and going further up into the high end makes the difference almost unnoticeable.

Windows 8 seemed to continue that trend, but had many advantages even for higher end systems (such as web browsing performance according to Tom's latest WBGP, granted that's usually not an issue anyway). However, even going for the server version, Windows Server 2012 and comparing a five years old Vista 32 bit installation to a fresh Server 2012 x64 installation is not a huge performance advantage in any of my tests. It is noticeably better, but even five years of near constant use didn't let the Vista system bloat up so much that performance was too greatly affected and that's with a nearly full hard drive and not a whole lot of maintenance either.
#5846
Originally posted by theonejrs:


Visa was Micro$oft's mistake, not ours. Why are we being made to pay for it?

Best Regards,
Russ
What do you mean by that? I never said nor even meant to imply that the customers were at fault for Vista's *fiasco*.
#5847
Originally posted by theonejrs:

Another thing about Win 7 that drives me nuts is they are constantly removing programs that I use all the time! Here's a partial list to give you an idea of what they removed.
7Zip, Win.rar, convertXtoDVD, Registry crawler 4, Hardware Monitor Pro, Sandra, TuneUp Utilities 2012 (permanently crippled), 1 click Fixer (permanently crippled), CleanMyPc, and Dragon Speaking. When I say crippled, I meant permanently! You can't use it on any computer! That's outrageous! My bought and paid for, legit software!
What do you mean by this? With the exception of RegistryCrawler, I've used every one of those programs on Windows 7 and never had any problems with any of them except for Everest (which is a flaw in Everest, not in windows).

As far as it goes for me:

Windows Me - very low resource usage, but also very unstable, even compared with 98. Most programs (and I do mean most) crashed daily if not more often - it was so bad I had no option but to rollback to 98.
Windows XP - much higher resource usage than 98/Me, but for the first time, proper stability with protected code. If an application crashed, it didn't take the system down with it. A computer finally felt like a stable environment, if it was slow, you took your time, but you got there, rather than with 98/Me, if the PC was slow, you had a far higher risk of losing your work through crashes.
Windows Vista - Good from the sense that it forced companies to start making 64-bit drivers (XP 64-bit was bit of a write-off because of poor driver support), but the resource hog was quite excessive. 2GB of RAM was borderline adequate for basic office use, whereas 1GB would have been perfectly sufficient before. The layout of some of the menus was bewildering, but the visual style was nonetheless improved.
Windows 7 - a bit like Windows Vista done properly. Although the menu systems were actually made worse than Vista, performance was improved, although it still wasn't quite enough to allow 1GB systems to perform properly even for basic tasks. Things were also a lot less buggy, the network stack didn't randomly fail causing you to need to reformat as with Vista, programs crashed less, and there were fewer inexplicable changes in behaviour (random delays in logins, odd permissions errors and so on) - effectively, Vista was the beta, and windows 7 was the finished product.
Windows 8 - if you ignore IFKAM, Win8 is basically like a further polished Win7, minus the start menu. The interface is better all round in the desktop environment, and boot times are much improved. General performance may also be slightly better, but not enormously so. Unfortunately Win8 does not address the long-standing delay bug in the installer, but apart from that performance is good.
One negative is the shutdown script. People are misled into thinking that Win8 shuts down quickly as the display goes blank 2-3 seconds after shutting down. In actual fact, however, this is because turning the display off is the second part of the shutdown process, before all the service shutdowns etc. occur, so your system can remain on for another 10-20+ seconds on occasions after the monitor has gone blank - which could be problematic for mobile PCs that are unplugged, people believing them to have shut down (assuming of course, no obvious power LED).
The other problem with the shutdown script is the desktop is hidden during the 'these programs are preventing windows from shutting down' so it's more effort to find what they are and close them before shutdown.

Generally speaking though, as long as you can retrofit the start menu, Windows 8 is a perfectly reasonable OS. It's just one you have to modify through third-party software before you can actually use it. (I do not consider IFKAM usable).

Oh I forgot, although Windows 8 has a 2-day grace period for installing windows updates versus the 4 hours of 7, notifications are not published to the desktop, only to IFKAM, so unless you lock your workstation, you'll never know they're coming, then wonder why your PC suddenly reboots itself halfway through doing work/playing a game.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2012 @ 10:43



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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updated 10-Dec-13
#5848
Your way off base Blaz, ME was the King of bloating, the KING hands down and I just disagree with you on XP being bloated, it was not. It is a fact that games and programs that run on XP and 7 won't run on Vista. That is why 7 was so revamped from Vista and is truly just an extension of it. It is also why businesses wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. So if I wanted to waste my time I could dig through my list and provide you many examples but I'm not going to waste my time so believe it or not if you choose, it doesn't matter to me.
#5849
Originally posted by Mr-Movies:
Your way off base Blaz, ME was the King of bloating, the KING hands down and I just disagree with you on XP being bloated, it was not. It is a fact that games and programs that run on XP and 7 won't run on Vista. That is why 7 was so revamped from Vista and is truly just an extension of it. It is also why businesses wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. So if I wanted to waste my time I could dig through my list and provide you many examples but I'm not going to waste my time so believe it or not if you choose, it doesn't matter to me.

Why does it seem like I've offended you or something? All I asked for was examples because this is the first that I've heard of software running on 7, yet not on Vista these days. I'm not asking for a huge list, just give me say three or four examples and I'll go from there. I've never known any such examples, hence I asked. I wasn't trying to put you in any spot light and say you're wrong, just asking for some examples since you say you have a lot of examples.

I'm simply telling you my experience with my numerous machines running these operating systems. What I believe is irrelevant as is what you believe, I'm just saying what I've seen with my own eyes and that of what I've read about as well.I don't have some of my oldest machines anymore thanks to some of their very old PSUs finally failing over the last few years (it's cost more to replace some of those old PSUs than the whole systems are worth these days, so I didn't bother fixing them up), but that's not the point.

Businesses didn't touch Vista because of the stability problems, huge expense of needles upgrades, potential software and driver incompatibility, and other such reasons. Any bloating over time issues had little to nothing to do with it. Even now, we're only seeing upgrades to 7 because it's in a much more stable time with much better software support and XP is running out of support time. The far lower costs than in the past with Vista for the time are probably also related.

EDIT: Well, this last paragraph is more like my opinion of the situation than a definitive guarantee, I'll admit that much.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2012 @ 10:53
#5850
Originally posted by sammorris:
Originally posted by theonejrs:

Another thing about Win 7 that drives me nuts is they are constantly removing programs that I use all the time! Here's a partial list to give you an idea of what they removed.
7Zip, Win.rar, convertXtoDVD, Registry crawler 4, Hardware Monitor Pro, Sandra, TuneUp Utilities 2012 (permanently crippled), 1 click Fixer (permanently crippled), CleanMyPc, and Dragon Speaking. When I say crippled, I meant permanently! You can't use it on any computer! That's outrageous! My bought and paid for, legit software!
What do you mean by this? With the exception of RegistryCrawler, I've used every one of those programs on Windows 7 and never had any problems with any of them except for Everest (which is a flaw in Everest, not in windows).
I'll second that in spades! Seems to be a broken record somewhere?

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