CDR Burn Speed and Audio Quality

I've always assumed that reducing the burn speed of a CDR increased the quality - that also seems to be the advice offered on forums such as this.

When I've mastered Audio CDs to be sent to pressing plants, I've always written them single-speed etc etc.

I recently purchased some TDK d-view CD-Rs (details at the bottom of this post), and recorded them single-speed using CDR-Win and a Yamaha CRW6416S scsi drive.

The audio quality when played back on both domestic and car CD players was terrible - lots of crackle and distortion (worse on the car player than the home hi-fi).

So, as a test, I recorded one at a faster speed (6x).

Result: Sounds perfect both on the Hi Fi and in the Car.

Has anybody else observed this behaviour, or can comment on why this might be?

Regards

Richard Goodwin


CDR Details:

ATIP: 97m 24s 01f
Disc Manufacturer: Taiyo Yuden Company Ltd.
Reflective layer: Dye (Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 73f / LBA: 359848)

 

To tell you the truth, I have a hard time beleiving that write speed would be the cause. Are you able to re-produce the bad sound to another disc? Are you sure that the audio source is ok?

BUT, it has been reported (by Ritek actually) that very low write speed may cause pit smearing, and therefore reduce quality. But that the difference would be of this magnitude...hm..

Does anyone here have Tayos? Can anyone else get similar results.

 

The Audio is fine - I run a small recording studio, so I know that side of it is OK. All these tests were made with the same Audio files.

I burnt about 20 of the TDK's at single speed before I noticed, I didn't play every single one, I tried several, and they were all the same.

I've also got a spindle-pack of Durabrand CDRs (Details below), and they seem to exhibit the same behaviour.

I stopped using the Durabrands a while back because I'd noticed that they distorted the audio, and wouldn't play reliably in either my car, or on a CD Walkman, though they were OK on the home Hi Fi.

I've just tried recording one of them at 6-speed, and it sounds fine, so same behaviour.

Is there any software around that'll indicate the Bit Error Rate of a recorded CD?

A few years back I had a pressing plant refuse to press a disk because they said the Error Rate was too high, so they must have measured it somehow.

Ever since then I've always written pressing plant masters at single speed and used known good quality blanks, and never had any problems (that I know of!).

I've had the CDR/W Drive a while now (a couple of years, I think).

Is it possible that the drive has degraded in some way? Could the laser have got dust on it or something?

Is there a good way of cleaning it without dismantling the drive?

Richard.



Details of Durabrand CD-R

ATIP: 97m 26s 66f
Disc Manufacturer: CMC Magnetics Corp.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)

 

Ok, so this is an extreme case of pit smearing.

Pio,

You talk about Plextor, LiteOn and TDK. Early TDKs were Plextors, then they changed to Sanyo (that also makes parts for Plextor) and finally TDK has been rebadging LiteOns.

rgoodwin,

Perhaps Yamaha F1 could be something for you? It's audio master technilogy aims at minimizing the error rate by using 1) low write speeds 2) increasing the length of pits and gaps (by using a slightly higher rotation speed)

 

Oh, sorry Pio - my bad.

Well, they still reference the disk simply as "TDK". It could be: TDK Corp, T.Y., Ritek, CMC...

 

>>Perhaps Yamaha F1 could be something for you? It's audio master technilogy aims at minimizing the error rate by using 1) low write speeds 2) increasing the length of pits and gaps (by using a slightly higher rotation speed)

That sounds interesting. If I continue having problems, I'll certainly consider replacing the drive.

When you've put many hundreds of hours of your life into a CD, you can't risk sending the pressing plant a dud master.

Richard

 

I have a Yamaha 4416E, and it doesn't like 80 min CD-Rs... The write process finishes ok, but the quality leaves a lot to be desired, especially when using 1x speed. In fact, 2x speed seems to give me better sound quality and data readability (not 4x, though). It is my opinion that these old Yamaha drives were optimised for 2x recording, and thus function best at this speed. You should try burning the same CD at different speeds and comparing the results. Also note that these Yamahas have been known to start making some tracking errors, as they "age". My drive could never DAE properly anyway (this shows you how good it is in audio work...)
I got a Plextor 4012A to replace it, and its audio recordings sound much better that the Yamaha's, so if you use yours for audio mastering, i recommend you get a new burner

 

Wildstar,

Also, old Yamaha burners had a reputation for being extremely picky about media. I have no facts to back this up with, but that's what I remember being discussed years ago. My friend has a 4x Yamaha SCSI writer and it certainly was a picky device.

 

cd-rw.org,

you tell about the audio master technology of yamaha increase the length of pits and gaps. Does it mean that you will a 80 min CD-R won't be able to really have 80 min of music becasue de pits and gaps are longer ? I have seen a yamaha cd writer box today and I understand how it works but don't understand if you can still put 80 min of music on a 80 min CD-R.

 

Pio2001 Said:

>>Note that in theory, the numbers show a perfect quality at any speed and any media, because an error rate of 0.3 instead of 1.5 when 50 is considered good, and 150 bad, is negligible.

Is there a way that I can measure the error rate that I'm getting from various different burn speeds?

Richard

 

aqua,

"When the CRW-F1 series is in Audio Master mode, longer pits and lands compared to normal audio mode are written at speeds of up to 8x resulting in the following storage capacities of CD blanks: 650 MB - 63 mins., 700 MB - 68 mins. and 870 MB - 79 mins."
-from the Yamaha site:
http://www.yamaha-online.de/products.php?lang=e&idcat1=4&idcat2=22&idcat3=22&idprod=560#

 

Many thanks for the pointer to the writing quality article.

I've downloaded it, and will read it with interest.

Richard

 

Hi,

I also do Audio Mastering, with a Yamaha 8424S SCSI burner, and now an LG 8400B 40Xburner.

With the Yamaha, I found that any burn speed above 1x would really kill the audio quality. I am not talking about distortion, just the way the sound changed(for the negative) at the higher burn speeds. I always burned at 1x with the Yamaha, with near perfect results. Mind u, it was a newer drive then the one u listed, so might have incorporated some fixes for CD-R compatibility.

My LG 8400B does not change the sound quality much at all. Seems to make 'almost' perfect copies from the original at just about any speed. This burner's lowest speed is 8x and I get great masters. I can still hear a slight difference between the original and burn, but its so small, I have a hard time figuring out if its a bad thing.

I think newer drives are just better at getting the pits and lands correct. Even at high speeds. I can only speak about the LG burner, but i am thinking any drive designed to burn at 40x will have to have a much more accurate laser tracking system, thus giving u better burns at most speeds.


TOM...

 

Mr lemon,

You do realise that if the sound quality would differ, that would mean that bits are changed in the process? Or alternatively, the used player is unable to read from the CD-R's and applies error correction schemes.

Have you made bit-by-bit comparisons of burned sound files? (note that CD-R drive offsets cause differencesin results), or performed reliable blind listening tests?

 

Hi,

I have not done a bit for bit comparison of the data on the disc. Maybe the data is bit-for-bit identical, but the burned disc might have problems reading on Audio CD players. Whatever the reason, the different burn speeds on my Yamaha 8424S where clearly audibly.

Thinks like missing bass end and exagerated treble content can't be missed between 1x and 8x on my Yamaha. Not much difference on the LG 8400B even at 24x.

I have a feeling the Yamaha just made it difficult to SEE/READ the audio CD's on regular cd players. The CD player most likely was error correcting overtime which leads to the sound change.

As for blind listening tests, not official results, but the difference was so obvious. I have been an Audiophile for 14years, and have spent most of that time also doing Recording and Mixing in a home studio. Maybe i just hear more problems then most people would, or maybe my stero system is much more resolving of the differences.

Anyways, the difference with my Yamaha, was unexceptable to me, but might be resonable results for most people, but i doubt if someone cared about sound quality, that they would not hear the difference between 1x and 8x on my Yamaha 8424S.

Oh and it did sound better with Black discs too, but again that might be an error correcting issue on playback, related to laser light scatter/noise perhaps??


TOM....

 

Black disc are normal phthalocyanine discs. The wavelenght of the laser is different form visible light. Therefore the 'blackness' of the disc is apparent for our eyes only, and trasparent to a laser beam.

With all the respect, I have heard this kind of stament more times that I can remember. They very seldom are proved in any way. Therefore I am sceptic towards these results of yours, unless they are backed by undeniable results or a good theory.

The theory of CD player constantly error correcting is one possibility. On the other hand, it sound illogical what you say about bass and treble, regarding that it would be due to error correction.

Old school audiophile here too, been for 10 years or so. Running Genelec studio monitors here at home.

 

Yello,

I had heard somewhere that the laser gets scattered and reflected back into the pick up lense a lot more in clear disks, then black discs. I have not really read any proof on this speculation, but it sounded good at the time.

Well all the proof i need for my results are my ears. The only way you could hear these differences would be for me to send u some discs.

I am not very interested in getting into audiophile debates about subjective or objective listening. I am more then convinced blind testing does not tell anything about sound. I am also convinced things like wire,capacitors, and power supplies DO make a difference in sound quality for listening or recording.

I don't know why my burner sounded worse at higer speeds, and i dont know why at the same burn speed (1x), black discs sounded better then clear discs, from the same CD-R media manufacturer even.

What I do know is, these (high speed) burned discs did not sound like the original recording or the 1x burned disc.

Jitter? Media compatibility? Bad Burns? Bad Media? What explains it?


TOM...

Im using Mission 731's for monitors in my studio and computer, and B&W CDM1's for the stereo system.