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Opening Windows 8: Rethinking the missing Start menu

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You may not realize that Microsoft has actually been a proponent of the tablet PC for more than a decade. In fact as early as 2002 they were releasing a tablet PC version of Windows. For numerous reasons previous generations of the Windows tablet PC simply didn't work for most people. The interface wasn't particularly tablet friendly, the operating system was too power hungry, and PC hardware ...

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This discussion thread has 52 messages.

#26
Originally posted by Bozobub:


It's cute that you have an opinion and all that. But clearly your opinion isn't well thought-out. Funny, how your rather condescending line also works so well for me, isn't it?
No, it didn't work for you. When you get out of middle school, someday you'll learn that clever lines in a conversation are only clever the first time. Repeating them after that just reinforces the fact that you can't come up with anything clever on your own so you have to be a parrot. Which is what your opinion is -- regurgitating the sloth that came from a few bloggers before Windows 8 was successfully released.

As for your claim that $15 is the cheapest introductory upgrade offer, your facts are just wrong. Historically, if you bought a new computer within a few months before Microsoft released a new version of Windows, you got a FREE UPGRADE to the next OS. The number of months in the pre-release window varied from 3 to 6 months, but you always got a free upgrade if you bought your computer some number of months before release. Windows 8 is the first time in several generations that Microsoft did not offer a free upgrade -- this time, even if you bought your PC a week before, the upgrade costs $15. (And if you didn't buy it recently, you pay $40.) The math may be hard for you, so I'll spell it out slowly: F R E E is less expensive than $15. Perhaps if you were older than 14, you would remember the history a little better. But the fact that you aren't old enough to remember what happened doesn't justify you in making the facts up as you go.

As for "hypocrisy," you should probably ask one of your teachers what it means, because you are little confused.

The rest of your points are such illogical nonsense that I won't waste my time detailing them. (You suggestion that CAD -- used by less than 1% of computer owners -- is relevant to a discussion about the direction the market is headed is simply laughable.)
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#27
4 million adoptees of win8 in 3 days after release! last weeks staples' flyer showed all their computers both laptop & desktop had win8 on them, not 1 win7 computer listed for sale.
#28
You can get as snarky as you like, SoTired. I can only point out that you are the one who decided to travel down that road, as everyone reading this thread can plainly see. Enjoy.

Furthermore, I know damn well what "hypocrisy" means, and you either used it incorrectly or were just being a condescending fool. Choose one, because stating a bald fact does not equal hypocrisy, no matter how you attempt to bend English. Either way, you fail.

As to your response to my example of CAD drawing with a touch panel, I can only laugh at your attempt to use the fact that I used an example to disprove my point. Need more? How about drawing in general, photography work, video editing, advertising copy, and so on (all tasks that I use PCs for, by the by)? Pretty big slice of the professional market, isn't it? And I can go on. You also still have not addressed the faulty ergonomics of reaching out and up constantly to a touch panel, nor will you be able to.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed your lack of response to most of the points I've brought up; now why would THAT be, I wonder?

And little snarklet, I'm 42. Yes, born in 1970. What's that I hear? Your self-importance deflating like a party balloon popped by the cigarette clutched in your abusive uncle's hairy paw? Aww.. Don't try to get all in a huff, when YOU have been the one insulting people - and not just me, I'll add - and YOU end up looking like a self-satisfied, hairy little troll.

Good day to you.
#29
Originally posted by Bozobub:
First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.
I completly agree !!
#30
@Bozobub: I agree with you, but remember, be gentle. It's clear from this and other threads that the person with whom you're debating is unable to cope with opinions that are not his. He may well be an unfortunate soul who has succumbed to the unyielding will of the Ballmer flock that I spoke of before. We should regard him as a victim and treat him with sympathy. Due to his condition, attempts at logical persuasion and objective discussion will ultimately prove fruitless. Several excerpts above reveal this plainly:

Quote:
For those who want to sit back and wait until Microsoft irons out the kinks, the good news is that Windows 7 remains an outstanding solution. But Windows 8 has clearly charted the path of the future, whether people choose to get on board now or prefer to wait for the next version.
In this statement, the victim uses a give-and-take technique to promote the object of his adoration. He first 'concedes' that the product he's touting may not be for everyone just yet (which any observer can already plainly see), but then uses that concession to elevate the brand to which he's ultimately loyal.

Quote:
Stepping back, I agree with the general principal that we have entered the era of the touch interface.
Here the victim starts his statement with wording that implies objectivity, but immediately proceeds to agree with a comment that has not been made in the discussion. He does so to enforce his perception that he's surrounded by supporters.

Quote:
Apparently you have been living in a cave the last several years. There's this new device called the "tablet" which uses -- gasp -- a touch interface. Complete with fingerprints on the monitor and whatever "inaccuracy" is inherent in the touch interface. None of that seems to bother people. Except you.
In this excerpt, the victim uses sarcasm to imply that his opponent is ignorant of the discussion's subject matter. He then uses that perceived ignorance to fallaciously dismiss any and all criticism his opponent has of the subject. In reality, the victim exposes his own ignorance of (or unwillingness to acknowledge) the subject's shortcomings.

Quote:
But clearly your opinion is not in line with the rest of the world that has decided touch interfaces are just fine, notwithstanding the problems your describe.
Here the victim concludes a post by asserting that "the rest of the world" shares his viewpoint. In reality, the numbers that the victim himself vaunts (whose nature is still in question) only account for about half of one tenth of one percent of "the rest of the world". This is another attempt to enforce his perception of being surrounded by supporters, and is also an attempt to dishearten or shame his opponent into relenting.

Quote:
When you get out of middle school, someday you'll learn that clever lines in a conversation are only clever the first time. Repeating them after that just reinforces the fact that you can't come up with anything clever on your own so you have to be a parrot.
In the above quote, the victim uses a classic "I'm older than you so I know more" attack to try and downplay his opponent's objections. Since the victim actually does not know the age of his opponent, it is clearly not an attempt at objective reasoning, but rather a ruse to trick more naive observers into believing that he actually is more knowledgeable and objective than his opponent. The statement doubles as a childish attempt to goad his opponent down to his level of illogic. (The old adage comes to mind: "Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.")

He then ignores (or pretends not to notice) his opponent's imitative sarcasm, instead claiming that his own [subjective] remarks are too true and insightful to be shared by someone of an opposing viewpoint.

Quote:
The rest of your points are such illogical nonsense that I won't waste my time detailing them.
Here, the victim dismisses all objections for which he has no witty retort, excusing himself by asserting that those objections are nonsensical. In reality, his own bias blinds him to the logic in the statements he's dismissing.


(Of course, he might just be a troll, but I'm trying to be more optimistic about people's intolerance of others' differing opinions.)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Nov 2012 @ 1:37

#31
Oh, dear... Well gutted.

*hands nonoitall a beer*
#32
Originally posted by Bozobub:


*hands nonoitall a beer*

You've clearly had your share of beers, judging from the drunken garble you've spewed in this thread.

As for your age, you are old enough to know that your statement about $15 being "cheap" compared to prior upgrades is utter nonsense, and completely dishonest. You were there, you know it was free until Win 8, and yet you claimed otherwise. You were, simply, being dishonest because you know the facts are against you.

Since you have proven that you have no interest in the truth, there's not much point in discussing it with you further.

Enjoy your cave.
#33
Originally posted by nonoitall[quote:
But clearly your opinion is not in line with the rest of the world that has decided touch interfaces are just fine, notwithstanding the problems your describe.
Here the victim concludes a post by asserting that "the rest of the world" shares his viewpoint. In reality, the numbers that the victim himself vaunts (whose nature is still in question) only account for about half of one tenth of one percent of "the rest of the world". )
You believe tablets account for only one half of one percent of the market?

Wow, you are even more delusional than the rest of your post would suggest.

Do they have pink unicorns where you live too?
#34
No, but we certainly have trolls just like you =) .
#35
Originally posted by Bozobub:
No, but we certainly have trolls just like you =) .
OK, that was funny.

Cheers.
#36
Originally posted by ronhondo:
Originally posted by Bozobub:
First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.
I completly agree !!
Although we have disagreed & ranted, oh so many times, in the past on even the most insignificant issues I must humbly agree with you on this particular case.

I'm not going to race out & invest in another monitor so that I can get the gist of another OS so as to fix my percentage of the 4 million laptops that everyone put Windows 8 on because they don't have 1. have a touch screen on & 2. don't want to take the time to learn it on their own as well.

I.e., forcing me as their surrogate 'Windows 8 for Idiots' in less than 10 minutes as I'm trying to replace another guys lcd screen.

While So Tired has a right to his opinion, it seems to me that he hasn't lived through timeless over & over inceptions of OS' being laid upon the masses from DOS 3.2 to the GUI of the here & now & all the midnight calls and blatherings of self proclaimed lunatic experts telling the real ones everything they know.

I mean, what is this release? 11? 12th OS in the whole scheme of things?

#37
12. windows 1, 2, 3, windows 95, 98, me, nt, 2000, xp, vista, 7 & now 8. never mind all the different variants of those windows.
#38
Originally posted by ddp:
12. windows 1, 2, 3, windows 95, 98, me, nt, 2000, xp, vista, 7 & now 8. never mind all the different variants of those windows.
What about Windows 98SE, I think I would consider that another notch in MS OS belt.
#39
that is why i said "different variants of those windows".
#40
There is something terribly wrong with Windows 8 for the desktop PC. I just can't put my finger on it.



--pcdtv--
#41
Originally posted by rking_ad:
There is something terribly wrong with Windows 8 for the desktop PC. I just can't put my finger on it.


*rimshot*
#42
anyone wanting to use the old GUI should just download and install ClassicShell.

The new start window is still available with the use of the windows key or putting the cursor into the top right corner and selecting it; press escape to return to ClassicShell.

No muss, no fuss, and you still get the speed improvements of the new OS.

It's also FREE.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 9:44
#43
I just bit the bullet yesterday and did an in-place upgrade to Windows 8 and just to cover my a$$ did two complete images of my current Windows 7 partition. As soon as the upgrade was finished I installed Stardock's Start 8, a $4.99 program that restores the start menu functionality and a freebie called Metro Controller, which removes the Metro interface. Now, after I log in I'm taken to my old familiar desktop with the start menu intact. Now, if I could only get rid of that awful Seattle skyline pre-login wallpaper I'd be satisfied.

IT Consultant
Pedal Steel Guitarist
#44
Windows 8 avoids the very reason Windows was a success in the beginning. To get to where you wish to be, you have to close down too many unnecessary features. I just reinstalled Win 7 to get back. Oh, I am using Vista now because of the age of the Laptop. I have WIndows 7 on my desktop and did have it on the laptop. At any rate, both are more user friendly than WIndows 8. Who needs any those new features anyway.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 8:37
#45
Originally posted by Nosredneh:
Windows 8 avoids the very reason Windows was a success in the beginning. To get to where you wish to be, you have to close down too many unnecessary features. I just reinstalled Win 7 to get back. Oh, I am using Vista now because of the age of the Laptop. I have WIndows 7 on my desktop and did have it on the laptop. At any rate, both are more user friendly than WIndows 8. Who needs any those new features anyway.
I agree, but I was having some issues with Win 7 that an in-place repair upgrade didn't completely solve, coupled with the fact that MS isn't going to be issuing any additional service packs for Win 7; rather they will be sending out individual patches. I suspect that they want to end it's "life cycle" as soon as they can.

IT Consultant
Pedal Steel Guitarist
#46
The reason I use the mouse is that I am too lazy to use my fingers. Now the whole thing is being reversed in WIdows 8. I spent a few years with Commodore products that required command line entries and was happy to switch to a truly mouse system with WIndows 95. Don't get me wrong. In many ways, the Commodore machines were superior to PC's in simplicity and power but were limited in computer resources and required a little knowledge to opererate.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 13:50
#47
Originally posted by SoTired:
Originally posted by ronhondo:
Originally posted by SoTired:
You must work for Microsoft !
Either that, or he's one of the over 4 million consumers who downloaded Windows 8.

Funny how so many self-proclaimed IT experts struggle so much with Windows 8, but ordinary consumers like myself have had no problems with it and been happy with what we consider an upgrade. (Me and the other 4 million people, that is. Of course, it's probably way over 4 million by now -- 4 million was just the first weekend.)
Enjoy It. I hate it !
I'm not sure why that made me laugh, but it did. (I don't mean that in a bad way.)

Stepping back, I agree with the general principal that we have entered the era of the touch interface. We use touch screens at the grocery store, gas station, ATM, and even on our phone. The only place we don't systematically use them is the one place you would expect to use them -- your desktop/laptop computer. It is baffling that it has taken this long to have an OS that moves desktops/laptops into the touch era. The mouse era is coming to an end.

As with any major change, there will be growing pains. The desktop in particular presents ergonomic challenges -- even if my desktop screen had touch capacity, my screen is too far back to comfortably use that way. And moving it closer would bug out my eyes. But all evolution presents challenges, and hardware manufacturers will solve them.

For those who want to sit back and wait until Microsoft irons out the kinks, the good news is that Windows 7 remains an outstanding solution. But Windows 8 has clearly charted the path of the future, whether people choose to get on board now or prefer to wait for the next version.
The era of the mouse is dead????

Try designing a new product or working in 3D animation or creating an STL file for computer controlled machining. Unless you work in a 'Gumby world', a mouse or a tablet is needed.....
#48
^Pretty much this. I have no problems with the actual improvements WIn8 brings to the table, but until/unless I acquire a touch panel, there's no particular reason to go through the trouble to "upgrade", especially when I'd have to go through a customization process to make the damn thing usable for me.
#49
Windows 8 is not difficult just too much a retired home user just does not need. So when necessary I will make the jump but for now I will wait.
#50
As a professional artist/designer/developer, I would have to consider these two simple questions.

1) Can a simplified interface, that is about as precise as poking the eyes of mice out, with the thick end of a baseball bat, replace the precision of a mouse, keyboard and Wacom Intuos tablet?

2) If the core of my work requires precision, what place is there in my workflow, for a finger based OS?

The answers, are 1) No and 2) None. Which begs the question, given the large number of "professionals" in the world, is this the first ever specifically consumer oriented OS from Microsoft? If I wanted a touch based device for my creativity, I'd already have a Wacom Cintiq. If the sole task of my PC was productivity, why on earth would I want to have a screen full of tiles, that do nothing but show irrelevant distractions?

I can't help but feel, that Microsoft should have gone in two directions with Windows 8. Consumer oriented Metro interface, and professional oriented dektop interface. They've been doing Pro/Consumer versions for years, this would have been the time to really define the line between the two. But that's just the opinion of someone that does more with their PC, than prod glass, and watch pretty pictures go by.

And I would just add, that I am planning on getting a Surface tablet, as a "consumption" device, that will also run my own, personally developed software. That old saying comes to mind... "right tool for the job".
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