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El Salvador pirates protest new copyright laws
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 17 January, 2006
For years the streets of San Salvador have been full of street vendors selling bootleg copies of CDs and DVDs for very low prices. Now, new tougher copyright laws have come into place since 1st January this year which include a mandatory jail sentence for selling pirated software movies or music. The new copyright laws were part of El Salvador's implementation of CAFTA. CAFTA provisions ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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McKeva
Newbie
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17. January 2006 @ 09:10 |
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damn straight- stick it to the man
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uwiloz2me
Junior Member
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17. January 2006 @ 09:30 |
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Poor Bastardos (Wanacos Pirateros)!
What they need is to get real jobs instead of selling someone else's work for less than nothing! I believe on making back ups for personal use, but not for resale and making a profit of someone else’s work! I hope that laws there get tougher on the Pirateros! Get them in jail, I bet most of then are bunch of Gurilleros FMLN or AREAN (Gorrilas). Que viva la rebulacion!
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Junior Member
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17. January 2006 @ 10:06 |
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And as if real DVDs are going to be sold for that price. This country is NOT the US, in case you didn't notice.
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AfterDawn Addict
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17. January 2006 @ 10:13 |
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Go El Salvador. F*** the retail prices which rob people of their money.
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Senior Member
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17. January 2006 @ 12:44 |
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If retail CD's and DVD's cost about half as much as they do now, I would buy a lot more of them. I just don't like spending two hours of work on an album that might not be any good, let alone four hours of work on a movie thats not any good. [I'm a student making minimum wage] I'm really indifferent about what happens in El Salvador, not to say I don't care about what happens outside the US but it isn't like bootlegging and whatnot doesn't happen here or anything. [Spend a day in New York City and you'll most likely be offered bootlegged material]
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MXGzX
Member
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17. January 2006 @ 14:21 |
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hehe I remember when I went to baltimore (for otakon lmao :D) and I was offered The Passion of the Christ....despite the fact it was still playing....
unfortunately I didn't tell her that I could get it myself ;p but I don't cause that's illegal....
support the MPAA!
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Junior Member
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18. January 2006 @ 04:20 |
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Maybe if people were not trying to profit from selling movies that they do not have the copy rights to, they wouldn't give us who back up copies such a hard time. But as long as there is crack........
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Member
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18. January 2006 @ 14:19 |
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I have a friend in Venezuela. He tells me that when you goes to a mall or any part you sees games, dvds and musics burned in a table and in the other table the original. He told me that is normal and nobody says nothing. He also told me that there already selling games burned of xbox 360.
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Senior Member
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18. January 2006 @ 15:42 |
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Seriously, who cares. These gluttons already make millions with their unquenchable thirst for greed.
They don't lose money with piracy, because the people who condone piracy in the first place ARE THOSE THAT HAD NO INTENTION IN BUYING ANYWAYS.
SO HA! Who gives a *uck twofolds.
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Junior Member
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19. January 2006 @ 04:39 |
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If every one in the world thought the way as some of the people who made comments in this thread, no one would be allowed to make any money. If no companies were making money they wouldn't be able to do any research to develope the technologies that the citizens of the world use every day. There would be no movies, musuic on record, tape or CD. There would be no internet, and no video games. No one would have employment at these hundreds maybe thousands of companies around the world. The economies would spin out of control and the world that we have come to love would be forever changed. Just because no one thinks that the movie, music, or video companies deserve to make money. If you owned the company I bet you would sing a different tune. No one is going to do it for free are they. Then there would be no music, movies or games to pirate. That would solve the whole problem. Be responsible for your self.
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Senior Member
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19. January 2006 @ 13:19 |
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Its important to consider, that these people had no intentions to buy.
They bask in millions of dollars, swim in green, and I doubt that poor countries circulating their stuff will make a difference.
Seriously, who cares.
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JaguarGod
Senior Member
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19. January 2006 @ 13:47 |
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@dysart147,
What you are saying makes a nice point, but in my opinion that only applies to economies that are strong like the US, European, etc...
In El Salvador, people make an average of $5000 a year. That is less than $100 a week!!! Also minumum wage is 60 cents an hour. Could you imagine paying $24 for a DVD making only that much money and also trying to support your family??? How would you feel about working 40 hours in horrible working conditions doing back breaking manual labor and in return (basically suffering for one week of your life) you get...... XXX: State of the Union!!!! At least highly developed economies it is about 1 to 3 hours per movie and the careers are more service oriented.
I believe that the pirating in El Savador is for society's benefit. Items like DVDs, CDs, the internet, TV, automobiles, etc... are luxuries and scarcely available to low income economies and emerging markets. What the pirates are doing is taking some of the luxury goods and making them readily available to the average consumer in El Salvador.
If Piracy were to stop, would DVDs cost $3 each or be offered at a reasonable price to those markets?? I highly doubt that.
Now, in places like the US, Germany, UK, France, etc..., I am totally against piracy because people in those countries can afford luxory goods wihtout any adverse affects.
Also, I highly doubt that the electronics sold in the El Salvador market and those sold in stronger markets are the same. Their DVD players are probably no name brands or knock offs, so why should their DVDs be from Sony or Universal??? I would imagine geniune consumer products like Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasaonic, etc..., would cost about double what they cost in Europe, US, and some parts of Asia.
I think that it is the governments responsibility to decide which laws are for the benefit of the society and which are for the benefit of the corporations. A decision on enforcing copyright laws should not only be based on a company claiming that they are losing profit. There should be more taken into consideration, like how the copyight laws would benefit their economy, how it will benefit society as a whole, etc...
As for the companies, if they think they are losing money in El Salvador, they should completely pull out of that economy. If I were in charge, I would just ban foreign DVDs and CDs, but not make laws against people watching them or woning them, only laws against companies selling them in my country unless if they can do so in a manner that will benefit society.
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JaguarGod
Senior Member
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19. January 2006 @ 14:06 |
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Here are some more stats on El Salvador taken from the national labor commitee (all numbers rounded to make things look prettier):
The average worker will make roughly $450 a month
Epenses based on an average family size of 4.3 are:
Food: $180 a month
Housing: $80
Energy Costs: $24
Transportation: $30
Education: $7
Healthcare: $24
Hygiene: $33
Clothing: $30
Add everything up: savings of $42 a month or about $9.80 a week
Based on this number, there is no room for luxury items. Those are for the average sutainable wage worker, not for minumum wage worker. Minimum wage workers only make about $143 a month (or $286 for minimum wage workers), so they would have to live in extreme conditions just to survive.
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Junior Member
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20. January 2006 @ 04:32 |
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I can see you point of view JaguarGod, But that is like saying that everyone should have a porsche, and that it is all right to go and steal one if you don't make enough money to buy it. If I can't afford some thing, I don't go out and steal it. The big issue is that people are selling the stolen material. They are making money from stealing. That is what I am talking about. Stealing is stealing no matter how much you make. If the people in El Savador want to download the movie for themselves to watch and not sell it, well that would be understandable. It would be no different than some one video taping a movie from HBO or any other chanel. But once you start selling those tapes, that is a different story. That takes it to a different place. Then you are taking money away from the people who spent all of the money to make that movie. If you are going to download it yourself and watch it and would never have bought it, that is your own choice and the company never would have made any money from you any way. But once it is for sale on the street, then people who might be able to afford it will be buying it at the low cost. These may be people who would have gone and paid for it at the store. And who pay's $24 for a DVD? Go to Walmart or target or some place like that. I don't think I have ever bought a full price movie for my collection. I by the deals and only the deals. That way I can get more for my money. Some one must have some money to be able to do the stealing. Even that cost money. And how could some one make any money selling a DVD at $1? A blank DVD cost more almost that much, even the cheap media. What my point is if it is for your own collection, I don't see a huge problem. If you are making a profit from other poeples hard work and they do not get anything from it, well......How would you feel if it was all of your hard work that was stolen?
dysart147 out!
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kingtut2
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20. January 2006 @ 07:08 |
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I believe that there are 2 separate issues here. One is the IPO (intellectual property rights) of the person who wrote the book/software or in DVD cases, who produced the film/movie and on the other hand - the right to make some money in a 3rd world country.
As clearly indicated by another member - when you make $50-60,000/year - one can certainly afford to buy the "retail" version of books and software and DVD movies. But when youre in a country that (average wage earner) barely makes $1000 per year-then one cannot even THINK of watching - let alone buy a movie. Priorities are different when one is on the verge of basic survival.
However, let me ask this? YEars ago when everyone had a turntable and played records (long playing -vinyl) and then selected songs and "wrote/re-recorded" them on casette tapes - was there such a clamor on IPR? Everyone just made/taped them. No one complained. So why the difference now? I think greed is the answer - Profiteers not from street vendors - but from the producers of the movies who could actually sell them much cheaper!
Jsut my 2 euros worth....have a good weekend everyone.
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JaguarGod
Senior Member
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20. January 2006 @ 10:48 |
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@dysart147,
You are correct again, but you are actaully describing the conditions before the ban on piracy. Before there was the Porsche (authentic DVDs) and the Kia (Bootlegs), but now there will only be Porsche.
What if wherever you are from, they only sold Porsche 911 and they were sold at a slightly higher price than in Stuttgart. There would barely be demand for these and only the richest and most powerful would own a car.
Now, imagine if in the same scenario, there is a small shop that builds bootleg Porsche 911's. However, these will not have a Porcshe engine, Michelin tires, or obviously the German engineering. These "Porsches" are being sold at $25,000 though. What would happen is that the rich would still buy the authentic Porsche, but now there is a new market for the bootleg Porsche. These are people that could not afford the Carrera 911, but now have the opportunity to own a car, and one that is almost the same.
You are also correct about Walmart having deals on DVDs, like XXX being $12 and then there are those bargain bins for $5.50 per DVD, but these are prices for the US. Prices overseas are always more than in the US. $24 would probably be the price for a new release and I am thinking they would not drop below $15. I say this because there would be such a low demand for authentic DVDs that it would drive up the prices in those markets.
I would still think that in markets where bootlegging/pirating is out of hand, it is because the consumer cannot afford the authentic product and either the corporation has to figure out a way to meet the needs of the market, or pull out of it completely.
I am sure that the companies can figure out a way to produce movies that will be cheaper than a normal DVD. They can maybe use an open source audio and video format, not include menus or special features, etc... Then, they can maybe even fit a movie on a CD rather than a DVD.
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ellegrand
Account closed as per user's own request
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21. January 2006 @ 08:25 |
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Look, you can´t talk about millions of dollars in countries like El Salvador.
And not all kind of piracy is illegal.
Yes, they are poor people.
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AIM2Shame
Junior Member
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21. January 2006 @ 18:11 |
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Cars and dvds are totally different things.
I know if my mate bought a brand new Porsche and I could go around to his house and copy it for free I dam bloody would.
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raziel_71
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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21. January 2006 @ 19:37 |
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Now everybody here seems to be judging left and right about if it is wrong or right and some just dont give a F*** about it.Most of you are doing it sitting comfortably in a nice chair in a nice room and with a brand new computer. But the point here is that maybe in your comfort and your "busy " lifestyle that allow you to have so much time to be in front a computer comfortably judging others you are just missing the point that not everybody have this great benefit of yours.In a country like El Salvador ,Venezuela ,Colombia(and I been there), the priorities of people are very diferent. The most important thing is not always playing with your computer or"backing up"your latest"bought" dvd or cd,because when your wage barely allows you to buy food you are not thinking "Oh that poor billionare company that these guys are stealing from".Your priorities are totally changed ,and if someone selling this dvd's can make a living or maybe put a little of amusement for some hours in a miserable way of life,its worth more to them than the fact if they are stealing or not. Yes, stealing is wrong, but there's more than one here that would steal to give their family food if it were the only way or even the easy way.Its easy to talk when you have had everything pretty easy. You dont know what is hunger and real poverty, and when you dont know where are you going to eat or sleep tomorrow, you think and act differently.And stop daydreaming about comparing porshes and others cars. In this countries a car ,even the cheapest one in the US is banned from the common people. Few can buy a car or even a bicycle.So why keep judging and fighting over a situation that you dont really know or have lived? What is wrong or right is diferent according where you live and your priorities.Have you notice that in every neighborhood there's someone who sells drugs? That is highly illegal and also kills people and make puppets and thieves of the ones who use them,it damages more the economy of the entire society in the robberies,money from the goverment that come out of your tax pocket to help the drug addicts,etc,but I dont see people organizing and going to your local ganster and taking him out for damaging your neighborhood or even your sons???? Our priorities as Americans have gone too low when we worry more from the loss of some multimillion company that already gained what they had budgeted they will earn in first place for the movie/music cd/etc than for the very lives and health of our sons ,neighbors and even our neightbors from other country.America was not born yesterday and came into being with all we have. We once where a "third world country" too. And thru the help of many, and the abuse that we commited against others is that you and me can sit back and relax with that wonderful dvd that you just burned.
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lachilaca
Junior Member
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21. January 2006 @ 19:57 |
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you got that right raziel,
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duckNrun
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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21. January 2006 @ 23:58 |
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Most people who pirate WOULD NOT or COULD NOT buy the origional in the first place so no money is really lost. Does that make it alright? No. The incentive to spend the money is directly tied to the priviledge of ownership or viewership.
However, one can view piracy as the 'black sheep' of the 'free market' economic family. If more people are stealing an item instead of buying it, or buying a reduced cost stolen/copied item instead of a legal one at retail, then obviously the retail price IS NOT the price that would be determined in a true supply and demand market.
Now, it may be that the owner of the product does not wish to sell the item at the 'true' market value. Normally this would result in a competitor coming to market offering a like item at a reduced price which would then force the previous owner to reduce his price as well. Maybe even to reduce it more than the new competitor is selling the alternative item at.
However, we have allowed a concept of Copyright and Intellectual Property to actually PERVERT the free market society that so many in the Western world endorse! As such the idea of competition when it comes to media is totally lost.
Drug Company 'A' brings spends money and innovation to bring a new drug to market. We TEMPORARILY reward them by granting a TEMPORARY monopoly and they sell it for whatever they can with no competition. But after a set amount of time the monopoly on THAT item ends and others can step in and make AN EXACT COPY of the same drug. They don't get to label it with the same name but the essential components of drug are the same (per U.S law) we call them generics.
But we do not let this happen with media and in fact it can't happen in the same fashion as other products because of the very nature of it's components. Those being the actors, or the singers, the director or composer etc etc. So for media the only way to equal the playing field if you will IS piracy of the origional content.
Also the time to recoup losses for media content is not anywhere near as long as for drug companies or other manufactures. Granted some media doesn't sell as well as the providers planned and so they may take longer to recoup.. but that is not the 'markets' fault but only their own poor judgement of their product.
Nowadays Hollywood doesn't look to the theaters as their profit but only as part of their marketing stragety. They plan on the worldwide DVD sales to really turn a buck. And in reality this makes perfect sense. Even a bad movie can be profitable on DVD due to the fact that while the movie may only last 3 weeks in the theater it will be available on the store shelfs as a DVD for a long time to come.
Like 'The Producers' Hollywood has discovered that you REALLY CAN make more money on a 'flop' than a hit but when the hit does come IT EXPLODES... all because of DVD sales (and rental royalties).
Sidenote: When Hollywood talks about how much money they are loosing and how many less tickets are being sold they NEVER MENTION the bottom line. That bottom line is how much more they are making because of the DVD's. And then they blame the 'pirates' for this lost money and empty seats at the theater instead of the future release of the DVD as the culprit. Why do I not go to the theater but maybe a few times a year? Because for most movies I look at the commercials and day to myself "instead of paying a lot of money to see it now (and in an often uncomfortable environment with overpriced concessions!) I'll wait until it comes out on video, save some money and probably enjoy it just as much if not more! When I just can't wait for the DVD I break down and go to the theater. If I KNEW that the only time in the near and not so near future that I could see these movies was at the cinema then I probably would go more... and also I would probably get pissed of more because I wasted a ton of money on a bad movie!
But anyways, as I was saying, the price (or very near to it) that the pirates are selling 'their' products for is quite probably very near to the TRUE MARKET PRICE of the item the only thing stopping the AUTHENTIC item from being sold at that price is the fact that the content provider has a perpetual monopoly on that content no matter how much profit it has returned. If the Content Providers actually participated in the free market where they do business then their prices would drop accordingly until equilbrium was reached (and the pirates market share which would always exist would however greatly be reduced and impaired).
But the Content Providers prefer to ignore the basic principles of capitalism and the free markets; instead choosing to embrace a perverted and twisted form where the market only consist of THEIR 'authorized' product and it is certainly no where near free!
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johnodd4
Suspended permanently
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22. January 2006 @ 08:17 |
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this is what happens when you live in a crappy country with a crappy goverment it is called if you cannot afford the dvd or game for real then don't rip off the companys and don't own a dvd player or a computer then
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msnevbill
Newbie
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22. January 2006 @ 10:25 |
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I read all of your comments and I really proud of all of you for thinking about the little guy (el Salvadorians) however who buys these pirated DVD's if the locals can't afford the technology? US meaning foreigners that do business in El Salvador. Maybe there are a few well off individuals there that can buy players and that kind of technology but I doubt there would be enough of them to keep the pirateers in business.
I have a family member that has $$$ and travels all around the world doing busines (the lucky stiff) and he buys these DVD's from all over including Japan at about $3. each. He bringings them home and his family enjoys them.
I wonder if we would feel that it is OK for anyone to pirate our work and undersell us on our own market. I know the prices of DVD's are outragous and they are making money hand over fist.
But what if you we the guy making the original DVD's would you feel the same?
Or how about if some poor illegal alien needed a job and they gave him yours because he would work for less money? I am a college student too. I am living on my student loans and no grants. The point of college is to get the better jobs that pay the bigger bucks right? So what if Joe or Jose or Sami comes to this country illegally or legally (it really doesn't matter) but because his need is greater he will work for half of what you get, complain less, and work longer and harder than you do. How would you feel?
Wrong is wrong, the end never justify the means. Stealing is stealilng. It's just that cut and dry. I am very sympathatic to people in other countries that are poor, but I am more sympathetic to people in this country that are poor and go to bed hungry. If your going to feel sorry for people how about a little sympathy for our own. How about we let them pirate movies and make a few bucks. Which movies would you buy then? We all know how good the technology is for copying movies. You can't tell the difference between the good and the pirated. So tell me true, would you pay $19.99 or would you buy the copy for $5 or $3. I'll be honest, I'll buy the copy. But are all of you as honest with yourselves? You can't say it's alright to do something in one place and not in another. Morality doesn't have borders or does it?
Thanks for your ear
msnevbill
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JaguarGod
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22. January 2006 @ 13:46 |
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@msnevbill,
You make a good point as well. To answer your question about pirated copy vs original, I for one would rather own the original for a DVD that is worth owning. For bad movies, I would only buy an original or copy for $1 or less. Obviously the copy will not be available at $1, so that means I will have to find the original at a flea market or something.
Now, if your family member is going around buying these sort of things elsewhere, he is doing something wrong, but how many people do you know of that will spend $500 to travel to El Salvador to buy a bootleg movie for $3?? Sure if they are already there they will do so, but these are people that are thinking along the lines of..."This is the same garbage that costs $15 at Walmart or $6 to rent at Blockbuster. I might as well just spend $3 since I am here and take this home and watch it with my family or on the flight home." This may be wrong, but these are people that at the most would have only rented the movie, but not purchased it.
As for the technology to play the DVDs, El Salvador and lots of other places have bootleg players as well. These will cost about $10 to $20 and be good enough to play a DVD. Given that DVDs will cost $3 each to them, $10 to $20 is not too much for someone that wants to make their family happy.
Also, like I have been saying, if they think piracy is a bad thing, then they should just completely pull out of the market in these high piracy countries. They will not do this however, because they still do make profit and that is all that matters, but they want to suck every bit of profit they can out of an economy, even if they do this by harming consumers.
My general mission statement was/is to offer the highest quality products at reasonable prices and in a way that benefits society as a whole. This included the company and the consumer.
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duckNrun
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. January 2006 @ 13:56 |
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What I referred to is happening in whatever country people live in. And just because companies/people CAN do something doesn't mean that it is right to do it. I was addressing the bigger conversation on what protections should be provided for content providers. Very few industries receive as much protection as copyright and IP laws provide media moguls. And again, yes, some of these differences cannot be reproduced because of the fact that the content consists of performers and listening to John Lennon sing 'Imagine' is quite different than listening to ME sing it. Watching ME star in a movie is quite different than watching Johnny Depp...
It is this very nature of origionality that effectivly creates a monopoly. Why? Because when you want to see Titanic you WANT TO SEE the award winning performances and sets etc of the origional... not Me and Julio down by the schoolyard performing it. And so, in effect, each individual movie, song etc is an effectual monopoly. Now it is true that at a certain point others can sing that song, and others could make a new version of titanic and those versions may do just as well if not better...
And as is the case with all monopolies they are regulated to incorporate the benefits and needs of society as a whole. This is also what copyright and patents do. Balance the monopoly created by these protections with the needs/benefits of society asd awhole.
However, lately we have been moving away from the consumer/society protections and interest instead focusing on the interests and protections of the few people involved in the business.
Am I saying that piracy is the answer? NO. I am saying that something needs to be done. And I am saying that these companies because of the nature of their product are able to disregard market forces because they have no competition on a title by title basis.
Choices are better for an economy than no choices. And regardless of right and wrong we also have to look at the economies of 'black market goods' and how they interact with the regular visible economy.
If for example media sales were 11% of an 'economy' and 1% is produced 'legally' the removal of that other 10% can have devastating impacts on the broader economy. While I am sure that media doesnt make up 11% of El Salvador's GDP the point is valid. As these sellers and producers of the illegal content would no longer have the ability to buy other items which causes other businesses to lay people off since sales are down, which makes more people not have money to spend which further reduces sales more layoff etc etc
And no.. I am not validating piracy or encouraging it. Only stating the broader picture. And the fact that individual interest MUST be weighed against societal interests.
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