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Possible to record 24/96 with a PC DVD burner?

Discussion in 'High resolution audio' started by The_Mule, Oct 17, 2003.

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  1. The_Mule

    The_Mule Member

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    24/96 LPCM audio is a supported DVD-Video format. No, I'm not confusing this with DVD-A. :) Chesky records put these type of discs out as Digital Audio Discs (DADs).

    My goal is to record analog lps to a 24/96 digital (DVD) format.

    Another goal is multiple hours of 16/44.1 std CD (wav) audio on a recordable DVD. (I'm still learning about all the formats.) I assume most burners should be able to do this. ??

    Thanks!
     
    The_Mule, Oct 17, 2003
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  2. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Mule. Those are awfully good questions. Only just recently I've learned that 2-channel stereo 24/96 IS a standard DVD [bold]video[/bold] format as WELL as DVD audio, which sure as heck raises the question, "Why can't I put 24/96 audio on a standard dvd video?", which apparently you can, but how?

    I don't _think_ you can back-up such discs (as Chesky's) using the freely-available backup software you see everywhere (dvd-decrypter, etc.)

    I'd love to see somebody try though. I believe one gent in here suggested that present backup software _could_ be easily modified to accept 24/96 audio for inclusion on standard dvd video discs if some programmer wanted to include it, but I guess the public demand to do so is minimal enough that no one seems to care.

    One still needs to use 'proper' (and damned expensive) DVD-A authoring software to put 24/96 audio on dvd-a discs. On dvd-v discs, I dunno..... (yet). But I think transferring high-quality vinyl to DVD A [bold]or[/bold] DVD V is a _very_ worthwhile idea.

    I too wondered about transferring music cds to dvd as well. (See http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/40902 ) As far as putting redbook 44.1/16 on a video-disc, well, I <sorta> got the impression that no one has attempted it. Although it's a crying shame, because you could fit 6-3/4 hours of music cds on a single $2 blank dvd. That would offer a [bold]lot[/bold] of convenience, and keep storage requirements down to an absolute minimim, without losing a whit of cd fidelity.

    (Sorry I couldn't be of help). We're working on all these ideas all the time. And we'll never get any help from the record labels or the hardware manufacturers who cringe in fear beneath their shadow, because they have a vested interest in seeing that we never accomplish any of the above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2003
    A_Klingon, Oct 17, 2003
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  3. The_Mule

    The_Mule Member

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    AK- Thank you. You are the 1st person who has actually understood my question(s).

    Cool. I am not the only one thinking about this stuff! I'll have to stop back here now and then to see if a solution does present itself.

    I bet some enterprising young shareware hacker comes up with a solution sometime. ;-)

    And since you do understand this stuff, essentially what I am looking for, is a replacement for DAT.


    ( Sony PS-X600 direct drive turntable, Shure V-15 Type V-MR !! )
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2003
    The_Mule, Oct 18, 2003
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  4. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh! You lucky bugger !

    [​IMG]

    I owned the Shure V-15 V cartridge years ago too (and it's type III and IV predecessors) - a simply magnificent cartridge that could easily put cd-music-fidelity to shame. I carefully installed it into my Denon DP-790 DD manual turntable.

    All that is past history though <sigh>, but I'm still having a bit o' [bold]low[/bold]-fidelity fun with the cheapest turntable on earth - a radio shack model which I think you can still buy for .08c or something. Comes with an ultra-cheap Audio-Technica cartridge & built-in preamp. It's made of cheap plastic throughout. If you breathe on the turntable it will resonate right through the pickup.

    I had to play around with the turntable's innards to whip up the speed to 78-rpm. (It's only calibrated to do 33-1/3 & 45). A screwdriver, a twist of the speed-regulator and a bit of electrical tape did the trick. I even got my watch out and carefully timed the table's rotation down to 79 rpm's (which you would never notice). The cartridge was never intended for old, wide, mono 78 record-grooves, but frankly, I was ready to turf the table out in next week's trash anyway.

    Yep, I've been transferring some [bold]old 78 shellac records[/bold] I found in a closet, to standard CD.

    (The scratches come through in lovely stereo.) <gg> I'm listening to one right now. :)

    What a weird experience!

    So nice to be able to put one 78rpm side to a single track accessible with just the remote. Gotta be _fast_ with the 'record' key though. Don't much care for editing waves.

    I only did it to be able to say I did it. :) The music itself sucks. (Sounds better with a few beers in you).

    I don't think Pioneer ever visualized my DVDA 192kHz/24-bit hi-res player ever playing back old 78-rpm mono RCA-Camdon shellacs! [​IMG]

    (But damn, it's fun!) A true merging of old technology with the new. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2003
    A_Klingon, Oct 19, 2003
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  5. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Thats nice to see someone taking the time to do it themselves. Too many people these days are far too lazy and just get someone to do it for them. Good on you A_Klingon. I told you he would know what ur talkinga bout The_Mule :-D
     
    Oriphus, Oct 19, 2003
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  6. The_Mule

    The_Mule Member

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    Hee, hee. :)
     
    The_Mule, Oct 19, 2003
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  7. Commisar

    Commisar Member

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    Hey! Someone else that want to use the DVD format as a cd! :)

    I have been looking for someone to help me with this to, but so far without luck.

    I Tried a trial version of Adobe Premier. There I got to make a DVD without the video track, just the audio track.

    It worked, but there were three problems:

    1. It came out as one big audio track on my DVD player. (I'm sure I'll find a way to fix this though.

    2. The program used a long time, aprox one hour. ( on a dual athlon 1700). Apparently it didn't just write the PCM files to the disc, but converted them into 48khz. Why this should take so much time, I'm not sure. It wasn't very practical either. :(

    3. It's a trial versjon of the program, and to expensive to buy.

    Please let me know if you are more successful than I. :)
     
    Commisar, Oct 23, 2003
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  8. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    -> 2. DVD-V doesn't support 44.1kHz sampling rate, because of that you can't avoid resampling (well you could, changing wav header from 44.1kHz to 48kHz, but this would cause your files to be played back at 8.8% increased speed and ~3/4 tone higher pitched ;) ). For resampling you could use SSRC (or foobar2000's diskwriter which is based on SSRC). The result will be high quality and probably faster.


    I'm sure there's free software that can do what you want if you don't need higher audio resolution than 48/16/stereo. As this is not exactly high resolution audio you could ask the same in one of the DVD-R forums or try to find some information over at doom9.
     
    tigre, Oct 23, 2003
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  9. E.LeRouge

    E.LeRouge Member

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    Hello

    Just a quick note on authoring 24/96 music DVDs (DVD-V).

    This is my first post here, and I hope I can help some people by sharing some experience. I went through this quest late last year, and finding the solution to this problem has beeen a recurring topic on the various forums here and there, and most notably on the DVD-Audiobahn.

    AFAICT, there's only three solutions to author 24/96 on a DVD-V:

    - Sonic Scenarist: it works, but it's an extremely complex piece of software, and the price makes it an option for professionals only. From the little I have seen, however, there is a steep learning curve in the initial stage, when you create your first structure, but then you can re-use that structure with other titles.

    - Roxio - As many of you know, many authoring programs will allow 24/96, but will eventually resample to 16/48 at the burning stage (DVD Architect, for example). Someone on the Chesky forum posted that the latest version of Roxio allows you to burn 24/96 LPCM, but I have never been able to test it myself (because I use DVD-A software for higher resolution).

    - Finally, there is a not-so-obvious option for Macintosh users. Apparently, Apple DVD Studio Pro can handle 24/96 LPCM on DVDs.

    Appart from that, there's DVD-Audio authoring software, with a very low starting point (DiscWelder Steel), but you need a compatible DVD-Audio player.

    I hope this helps

    Best


     
    E.LeRouge, Nov 25, 2003
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  10. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    If you use DVDA authoring software, such as discWelder Chrome, you can use 16/44.1 right the way up to 24/192 in Stereo PCM, or 24/96 in Surround.
    I suggest using Chrome because this version allows the use of MLP files which can gain you an extra 50% playing time. It's a lossless repacking algo that uses the space more efficiently and is actually mandatory on 24/88.2 & 96 surround recordings, or you exceed the maximum available bitrate of 9.6MBPS.

    Still, it could be worse, and when trying to do DVD-Video "music only" discs, it is worse.
    Firstly, you need to use a sample rate of 48KHz. 96K is in the DVD spec, but almost no players actually implement it, as it's not mandatory but optional. Those that don't support it truncate your audio down to 48K. The only way around this is to use analogue outputs from the DVD player. It will never run at 96K digitally, as this violates one of the copy protection protocols.
    Next problem is you MUST have video accompanying the audio, even if it's only videoblack or a load of stills. This is unavoidable, or you are in violation of spec.

    Just 'cos something is supported in the spec does not mean it got implemented in the hardware, unless it's part of the compulsory spec. DTS audio is another good example, as although it is part of the spec for DVDV, it is NOT compulsory. All that is is PCM, and Dolby Digital. Not even MPEG Audio is compulsory everywhere.
    Then how to burn?
    Personally I'd avoid stuff like Nero like I would a dose of flu - but that's cos I am lucky enough to have some extremely serious Authoring stuff. Anyway, the point is for DVD you really should use a dedicated app for authoring, and avoid these "all-in-one" packages. The forums at Sonic & Adobe are full of people having conflicts with Nero in one way or another. It's great for CD, but DVD is another story altogether.

    Try Adobe's Encore DVD if you really want to burn music to DVD-V. I'm not sure about 96K support, but it does do 16-24 at 48K PCM uncompressed and is so easy to use. Just bung in a few stills & voila!

    If you are at all serious about putting your music on DVD, go the DVDA route. There is a cheaper version of discWelder, called Steel - it's just been upgraded too. Well worth the effort.
    www.discwelder.com
     
    wilkes, Nov 25, 2003
    #10
  11. The_Mule

    The_Mule Member

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    Cool, thanks for the info. I have to think about the DVD-A ap. (I do have a player, but I'm not sure what the deal is with passing 24/96 digitally.)

    I actually came across an Alesis pro CD burner that can do 24/96 audio in a proprietary format. So I wonder if the professional world will ever lock on to something like this.
     
    The_Mule, Nov 25, 2003
    #11
  12. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    24/96 can be passed digitally from DVDA with no problem at all as long as the material is in Stereo. Basically, the good old TOSlink lines we all know & hate can carry 8 channels at 24/44.1&48, 4 channels at 24/88.2&96, and 2 channels at 24/176.4&192.
    All DVDA players will have 6 analogue outputs. Get a model that can either do this, and preferably will output in digital at 24/96 without truncating down to 48KHz. Most DVDA players will do this.
    From personal experience, I can recommend the Limit DVD9900SE. It covers everything, including reading DVD-R & R/W, photoCD, JPEG, all CD types & MP3 too. The video outputs are also very comprehensive. It's only downside is the remote needs to be pointing directly at the unit. It has built-in DTS as well as the compulsory DD and can be tweaked to play any region discs via a quick handset key entry. PAL/NTSC is automatically detected.
    I'd recommend beginning with discWelder. Check out the versions at www.discWelder.com
    HTH
     
    wilkes, Nov 26, 2003
    #12
  13. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? Where did you get that information from? Have you tested it with a DVD-A player? Everything I've read about this so far says that there's no way to get digital out from DVD-A players with higher resolution than 16/48.
     
    tigre, Nov 26, 2003
    #13
  14. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    My DVDA player has 96KHz digital output. You get the option to truncate to 48KHz.
    Bitrate, if using the lightpipe, is up to 24 bit.
    You cannot get surround out digitally at 24/96, you need to use the analogue outputs.
    The 48KHz limit is in DVDV players, AFAIK.
    I'll write to the manufacturers and make sure, but I've definitely had digital out at 24/96 stereo in DVDA.
    I can be certain, as I have both Digital & 6 channel analogue outputs wired to the amp, and unless I defeat the amp's default Optical setting for DVD by pressing the 6 channel button to activate analogue input, all the signals go down the lightpipe. I burned a test DVDA with just 1 track, 4 different mixes, at 24/96 stereo and set the digital output to 96K as the dowmsampling option is switchable. I got sound via the lightpipe.
    I'm SURE the 48K limit is down to DVDV and copy protection. I THINK it has to do with either CSS or Macrovision, but I'm not absolutely certain.
    I'll do my homework and post back with more details as soon as possible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
    wilkes, Nov 26, 2003
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  15. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    Wilkes, if I understand correctly, you haven't tried something like capturing your DVD-A players digital out at (hopefully) 24/96 stereo with a soundcard's digital in, have you? This (and checking the results with a wave editor) would be an easy way to remove all doubts.

    I guess this means "DVD-V and copy protected DVD-A". So there's no way to extract a bought (= copy protected) DVD-A digitally at high resolution, correct?

    BTW: A thread containing interesting information about KiSS DP-500 DVD/DivX/Ogg Vorbis player:
    http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=7705&
    The main topic was about the company producing this unit being attacked by some anti-piracy group.
    I asked if S/PDIF out @ 96kHz worked only for DVD-V or also for (copy protected) DVD-A, but haven't got a reply so far. IMO it smells fishy that they limit digital out resolution with a firmware upgrade *after* getting problems with some anti-piracy organisation ...
     
    tigre, Nov 26, 2003
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  16. E.LeRouge

    E.LeRouge Member

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    Wilkes,

    Your player may output 24/96, because
    some players do, but most don't. I made the
    experiment with someone to use the digital
    output of a Technics DVD-A player (LPCM
    out) at 24/96, and the settings on the player
    was set NOT to downsample. His DAC
    measured a 24/48 incoming stream. Etc..
    there are many examples of this. I have 3
    DVD-A players and none of them allows
    high resolution digital out.

    All I know so far is that you cannot trust the
    player's specs and even the menus on
    those players (e.g. the bass management
    may be "on", it doesn't work in DVD-A mode).
    Some protection is also included in the
    discs themselves to prevent hi-rez digital
    output.

    LPCM 24/96 may be allowed on digital
    output on some players (e.g. Meridian of
    course), but 24/96 PPCM requires MLP and
    you are very unlikely to see a 24/96 digital
    signal decoded from the MLP section. For
    security reasons, most major labels locate
    the hi-resolution section in the PPCM (MLP)
    section of the disc, not in the "open" LPCM
    section, and prevent digital output of the high
    resolution section by limiting at 48kHz.

    Having said that, the new digital connections
    will probably allow 24/96 (or higher) digital
    out, I don't know, so this isssue may be
    History soon.

    :)

    Best

    Eric

    PS: how come my post has line wrap? is
    this because I'm using a Mac?_X_X_X_X_X_[small]Eric[/small]
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
    E.LeRouge, Nov 26, 2003
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  17. The_Mule

    The_Mule Member

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    I know that DVD-V can do 24/96 (stereo). Chesky has put out DAD (digital audio discs) that use this format. But I also was under the impression that the copyright police had limited the digital outs of DVD-A players to 48 kHz. ?? If you have actually done this, and confirmed it with a pre/pro or receiver that gives you the word length and freq of the input, I believe you, but 24/48 was what I had heard that DVD-A was being limited to...
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
    The_Mule, Nov 26, 2003
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  18. E.LeRouge

    E.LeRouge Member

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    The_Mule

    Regarding your post: this is exactly what I tried to explain, maybe I wasn't clear.

    You are unlikely to be able to output 24/96 PCM digital from your DVD-As, or it will be a lot of work, and in any event it will be easier with the LPCM section (just like on a DAD).

    You can rip 24/96 LPCM from your Chesky DADs (or from Classic Records..) using vStip and LPCM24, and then re-author them on a DVD-V (using an authoring solution and Roxio for burning or using Scenarist, or an Apple-based solution).

    You can do exactly the same thing with your vinyl, using an Alesis or any other solution, it will be much easier in fact.

    Of course you can author a DVD-A using DiscWelder Steel and that will save you a lot of time, but that's another issue ..

    I'm not sure this is what you are looking for, but I hope it helps.

    Best

    Eric

    PS: Someone posted just yesterday on DVD-Audiobahn news from the latest DVD Forum meeting that announced that DVD-Audio recorders (DVD-AR) will be introduced in Q3 2004... That may be then end of all those technical problems ;)

     
    E.LeRouge, Nov 27, 2003
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  19. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Okay - I will measure the stereo outputs from both self authored and bought discs, in both PCM and MLP encoded PCM streams to find out once & for all exactly what the issue is.
    This will give 4 sources to test.
    The whole MLP issue is to do 2 things - increase playback time and get 24/96 surround within the required bitrate, as 6 channel 24/96 is over 13MBPS which is outside spec. AFAIK it is not used for copy protection. I don't see how it can be either. I author MLP on an almost daily basis with no CP issues.
    There is DEFINITELY a 48K limit in the VTS subset, but this does not exist in the ATS. Any restrictions must therefore be in hardware/firmware, and would put the player in violation of DVDA specification.
    Take a quick look at these FAQ sheets
    http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6
    and read carefully, as it interchanges between DVDV and DVDA quite regularly.
    http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.11
    talks about the copy protection issues, and does not seem to mention sample rate reduction.
    Any sample rate reduction therefore MUST be introduced not by the player, but the amp it is hooked up to.
    I'm emailing Jim Taylor for confirmation of this, as well as the AES.
    I'll be posting the replies I get here.
     
    wilkes, Nov 27, 2003
    #19
  20. maxg

    maxg Member

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    My God - this is exactly what I am looking to do - and this is my first visit to this site.

    I have a fairly high end viny rig with a Shelter 901 cartridge and am looking for a means to copy the records to digital.

    I have not been very happy with Cd copies and am thinking of recording to 96KHz/24 bit onto DVD video disks as I too noticed that they are supposed to support LPCM at this depth.

    I am very happy to have this output only on the analogue outputs - and from what I understand from my DVD player's manual it is supported without downmixing to 48 KHz.

    So far I have managed to rip the vinyl to 24 bit 96 KHz WAV files on my hard disk - and they sound really good (even with the Soundblaster Audigy USB sound device).

    How I get these from the hard disk to the DVD (my computer has a DVD+R/+RW writer) is proving beyond me.

    I know this is possible! We just have to find a DVD authoring program that supports writing LPCM soundtracks @96/24.

    BTW - the soundblaster came with a host of software including a DVD audio player (on my standard DVD writer) at 96/24. Does this mean it will play any DVD-a disk?
     
    maxg, Dec 16, 2003
    #20
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