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This is gonna KILL SACD.

Discussion in 'High resolution audio' started by wilkes, Jan 24, 2004.

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  1. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Announcing BRONZE - The $99 DVD-Audio Tool

    For the first time, consumers can easily write their own high-resolution DVD-A’s for under $100.

    Minnetonka Audio Software is proud to announce the release of discWelder™ BRONZE, a basic DVD-Audio authoring program that allows consumers and prosumers to deliver surround and high-resolution audio on DVD-Recordable media, at the unprecedented price of $99. With discWelder BRONZE, the user can import all Linear PCM formats supported in the DVD-Audio specification, including surround (up to 6 channels of 24-bit, 48kHz audio) and high-resolution stereo (two channels of 24-bit, 192kHz audio). Surround and stereo tracks may be used on the same disc, in WAV or AIFF file format, and discWelder-burned media will play on any DVD-A player that supports DVD±R/W. The Windows-based program is brilliantly simple to use, and can burn DVD-Audio discs utilizing inexpensive DVD±R/W drives.

    Minnetonka’s discWelder BRONZE offers hi-res DVD-Audio disc writing at a category-defining price, and will be shipping in March 2004.

    discWelder BRONZE Features:
    · Supports Linear PCM formats: 16- and 24-bit depth; 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz sample rates (Stereo); 44.1, 48kHz (5.1 Surround); WAV or AIFF files
    · Supports Intermixed Surround and Stereo (PCM only) Tracks
    · Multiple DVD±R/W Burner Support
    · 1 Group with up to 99 Tracks
    · Drag-and Drop or Double-Click Soundfile Placement
    · Downmix Properties Preset to Industry Standards
    System Requirements – Windows 98/2000/NT/XP with 10 GB free hard disc space and supported DVD±R/W drive.




    What more is there to add?
    Okay - it is not full spec DVD-Audio, not by a long way. You only get a single group as opposed to 9.
    There is no MLP support.
    BUT - you do get surround at up to 24/48, and stereo right up to 24/192 and everywhere inbetween, and all for $99.
    SACD is looking more and more like an "also ran" as this will bring a form of DVD-Audio authoring within reach of every PC user at a price everyone can afford.
    And that, my friends, is what will make DVDA the long term good bet, as once home users experience it there will be no turning back.
     
    wilkes, Jan 24, 2004
    #1
  2. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Definately a step in the right direction, YES !

    (But you know.....), ever the pessimist, I simply wonder if Minnetonka didn't come to the realization that if they hadn't brought the price down to realistic consumer levels, someone else would have?

    Still, $100 is awesome at this stage. Most consumers don't author independent live music, they copy or 'backup' that which they already have, or can find elsewhere. And with current Hi-Res DRM measures present on just about every Hi-Res recording (and playback machine) made today, it's going to be difficult to find hi-res and/or surround material to author.

    High quality audiophile recordings (on vinyl) will be a notable exception. In fact, just about *any* vinyl recording will benefit from hi-bit-rate encoding! Backing up irreplaceable analogue vinyl recordings to (say) 192/24 will be an wonderful achievement.

    Minnetonka has taken the first step to provide quality, affordable authoring software -- now we need the other "Big Two" things:

    (a) In the still-as-yet absence of very many widespread commercial (uncrippled) hi-res music discs, an uncrippled commercial source for same, and ...

    (b) Quality, analogue-encoding software to allow our vinyl recordings to sound better than they ever have since our audiophile-grade turntables, and in the interim, give us something TO author with Minnetonka's Bronze, while we wait for the Big Labels to unlock their vaults.

    Put those three critical elements together, and oh yeah, SACD will be in deep s---. :)
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 24, 2004
    #2
  3. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Any recording done at high res will benefit from the increased bit depth & sample rate. The processing will be done at the higher rates, so shifting any errors (probably) into the ultrasonic bands, so even if you then drop down to 24/48 the quality will be superior to 16/44.1 or even the original vinyl. Remember that vinyl wears out, so using the DVDA restoration will ensure the survival of the record. Personally, I've been haunting local record fairs ever since I got DVDA purely to replace a lot of old material that will never be re released, especially in the DVDA format.
    A large home user uptake will ensure the dominance of DVDA, as more people will be able to create their own content, rather than waiting around for the record companies.
    As for not being able to extract surround, DVD-Audio ripper does a fine job of turning AC3 into WAV direct from the DVD. It is badly named though - it really should be called "Audio on DVD-Video ripper" as it only rips from DVDV and not DVDA.
    The only thing about Bronze is it is seriously hobbled, but that will be good for me, as more people will begin to understand the format and I can still do things the $100 customers will never be able to do, such as CPPM flags for the labels, and MLP encoding too.
    Remember also that DVDA has not, so far, been cracked either. You cannot digitally extract an AOB back to it's components, and if the track is in MLP form then even if you could you'd not be able to do anything with it as no wave editors understand MLP either!
    Factor in CPPM which is also uncracked to date, and we have a format that Home users can create their own content with, and record labels can use in safety.

    Oh, did you notice that DVDA/CD is about to become a reality, probably within 30 days? Roll on the blanks for that one too.
    Must dash, finally coming to the end of that big DVD project.
    AND - I now know how to author the hybrids - DVDA & DVDV on the same disc. It's only taken a year, and believe me nobody will tell how it is done. We had to work it out for ourselves!
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]www.opusproductions.com
    Digital Audio Specialists[/small]
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2004
    wilkes, Jan 25, 2004
    #3
  4. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    "We had to work it out for ourselves."

    <heh-heh> Of course. The big Labels are paranoid Wilkes, and won't tell you (or anyone) squat. There's a fortune at stake. They still own all the publishing rights to the musician's music they stole from years ago.

    For me, on a consumer level, my greatest, most preferred use of the wonderful DVDA system would, at this stage, not be to cobble together yet another massive, expensive music library of expensive new remasters (Doobie Brothers; Alice Cooper; Pink Floyd... @ $40-a-pop), but rather, to be able to transcribe priceless vinyl recording to the new format.

    Right now there are something like 250 - 300 LPs stacked in my living room, kindly loaned to me from a friend. Many of these are screaming for the high res treatment.

    I've been putting off transcription tho, as now, I am seriously considering (once again) the acquistion of a decent, quality turntable that will do them justice. Much of this vinyl will never see the light of day again as commecial releases. I don't blame you for haunting the local used-record shops - we have one here in Halifax (TAZ Records) that would make you drool. :)

    On another note, I'm rather disappointed that the venerable Mobile Fidelity Sounds Labs empire - traditionally a force to be reckoned with - have chosen to walk the perilous SACD path. What a Sin !!!

    I have often been *floored* by the sheer care that has been taken by these people in providing vastly superior recordings of major-label releases that the Big Labels themselves never took with their own in-house processing. Whether they were gold-cds, half-speed mastered LPs, or whatever, it was obvious to me that MFSL *knew* exactly what they were doing.

    But since having been bought-out by (whatever interest it was that has bought them out), we're now looking at a crippled company. I don't know if audiophiles will ever be able to hold MFSL up to quite the same light as they did before. It's a tragedy! They have been diluted. To me, they are now just a name "that used to be". Damn.

    I notice too, that the local Canadian audio magazine "Ultra-High Fidelity" still rigourously promotes SACD in the "Audiophile Store" section of their Website. DVDA titles are occassionaly offered, but only as a sort-of "afterthought" it seems. (Remember, these are the same people whose publisher confidently proclaimed that the 'war' was over, and that DVDA was the Betamax of the audio world now, and SACD was the new VHS). I have NO idea of what forces are at work there.

    For sure, my curiosity regarding the new hybrid DVDA/CD releases is piqued !! :) It's about time! I will splurge on a title or two (especially since I can play both layers) if and when I see something interesting in the local stores.

    Thank you kindly for the updates, Wilkes. -- Klingy --
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2004
    A_Klingon, Jan 25, 2004
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  5. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    I have never picked up a copy of Ultra-High Fidelity here in Toronto. But I am curious now to count the number of Sony ads, there just might be a correlation. Funny that Sony was Betamax and now it is SACD (the new VHS).
    To be honest I don't know if this software will be the final blow. Not that many people make there own music, sure lots of home movies going around, but music is not every ones game. IF you really want to sell this to the average American, you do what wilkes just fiqured out. Tell everyone that they can create Surround professional sound effects for there home movies and productions with a software package. Be able to get grandma's 90 b-Day in full surround, with crystal clear DVD quality. Then you may have a wide spread DV market.
     
    Prisoner, Jan 25, 2004
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  6. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Prisoner.

    I doubt very much if Mr. Average Joe music lover cares a hoot about creating their own surround-sound mixes for GrandMum's 90th birthday, or the kid's Christmas Party, or the family's trip to the beach, or ..... In fact, I doubt they would bother to create separate sound tracks, mix them, author them, or would even know HOW to, or for that matter, even have 5.1 surround systems in their homes.

    When most people are creating home movies, stereo (or even clear monaural) is usually ultra-sufficient. Just making a crisp, clear video of the event is 98% of the battle. This function (surround sound home movies) will, IMO, be the _least_ used one with the 'new' DVDA crowd. Unless they're dubbing in music and/or sound effects afterwards, how many people are going to have multiple microphones for capturing multi-channel sound at the local, fast-paced racing-car event, or bumping shoulder-to-shoulder with people at the local circus? (And who among the average public would have the necessary equipment or expertise, or *ability* (or desire) to create such soundtracks ???) It's all most folks can do to _hold_ a camcorder steadily and get a useable picture in the viewfinder.

    No.......surround-sound's clear domain is in music.
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 25, 2004
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  7. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    As an aside, it is amusing to hear DVDA referred to as "the new betamax". I assume it is meant to be a comment on the fact that betamax "lost" it's battle.
    A shot in the foot, methinks, for SACD people to use this comparison, as everyone knows that despite losing the consumer battle, Betamax was far better quality wise.
     
    wilkes, Jan 26, 2004
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  8. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    To cloud the already-murky waters even more, I believe that much of the technology that went [bold]into[/bold] VHS originated from Sony. (Don't try to figure it out; I can't). [​IMG]

    We'll know we've "arrived" when Sony starts releasing major-artist back-catalogue titles on DVDA.

    (Will it happen in _this_ lifetime?)
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 26, 2004
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  9. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    I never said the aveage person will make surround sound videos of Grandma. I was saying that if you tell them they can and this model is only X more but you can do 10 more extra things. I fliping around on tv and saw the shoping network selling a pocket size digital camera and the selling feature was that it was a Webcam, camcorder, camera, and record your voice. I bet a lot of people bought this and will never use any of the features as the quality for sure will suck, and none of them will know how to conect it to a computer. But if you market it that way, then people will buy. And all you really need in the market place is sales, who really cares if anyone uses it.
     
    Prisoner, Jan 26, 2004
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  10. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, since I already have a DVDAudio player, if (and only IF) a _new_ DVD-A player will shine my shoes; make donuts with a special attachment; slice & dice tomatoes; perk my coffee and pull-in 5 extra cable channels, will I consider purchasing it. [​IMG]

    [bold](I'm just *pulli' yer leg*, Prisoner !!) :)[/bold]

    (In truth)..... the prices of DVDA players has already come down to *most* satisfying levels - we just need to see a lot more genuine, major DVDA titles (at realistic price levels) to get the ball rolling. If, as Wilkes suggests, we could be seeing hybrid CD/DVDA discs in the stores within, say, a month's time (oh, ye are a brave, optimistic one, Wilkes), that's going to make a HUGE difference in the perception of both value and format-acceptance!!

    Despite the fact that many (most?) SACDs are already hybrids, the format hasn't taken over the world yet, suggesting either: (a)the SACD propaganda machine is not working as well as the promoters of SACD would like; (b) people aren't as dumb as the promoters would like; (c) people aren't overly thrilled with the sound reproduction promises that the promoters have made; or some combination thereof.

    At least Warner Brothers is attempting to garner some needed public feedback through returnable, postage-paid, card-insert questionaires included with their DVDA titles. The questions are interesting and all contain checkboxes for you to select:

    * How did you learn about DVD-Audio?
    * How many DVD-Audio discs have you purchased?
    * How many other DVD-Audio discs are you likely to purchase in the next six months?
    * What kind of audio hardware do you have on your primary system used to play DVD-Audio?
    * Is the system hooked up to a television to view the visual content included on the DVD-Audio?

    [bold]* How satisfied are you with each of the following aspects of this DVD-Audio?:[/bold]

    >> Music Sound Quality
    >> Ease Of Use
    >> Picture/photo Gallery
    >> Video
    >> Lyrics
    >> Discography/Commentary
    >> Features Listed On Package
    >> Value For The Price
    >> Overall Satisfaction

    * Are you male or female?
    * What is your age?

    (These were only some of the questions). So it would appear, at least, that Warner Brothers is interested in feedback from it's potential customers and will (presumably) listen to their requests. No such questionnaire came with the SACD I purchased.

    DVDA titles _still_ cost about $40 each here in Halifax, for albums that were originally well under 45 minutes in length. Still [bold]too expensive[/bold] for me to consider replacing an entire Record Library with. (Many of my favourite album titles will never make it DVDA *anyway*), but IF I can find a DVDA player that will also steam-press my trousers; pop my popcorn & include a plug-in hose to vacuum up the crumbs afterwards.......

    I'm just *joking* Prisoner !!! [​IMG]
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 26, 2004
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  11. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    To be honest, I can`t see either SACD or DVD-A making a killing on the market. Sure audiophiles will eventually settle on one, but the mass public now is thrilled about Mp3 and downloading music. I know more people now considering buying Mp3 players and iPod`s that don`t even listen to that much music. but they are willing to sign up for cheap songs ordering over the internet. To buy only the one good song off an Iron madien album, rather than buying the whole disc, is the direction that they are heading. So now with the mp3 machine in motion, I can`t see people willing to go back to the old day`s of more than $20 a disc. IF and only if the protection thing is fiqured out or just ignored, and internet sales of SACD or DVD-A is allowable. Then you will get the mass back with buying software to burn the DVD, the player to play them off a hard disc or disc ete ete.

    I would love a DVD multi player that could vacum up crumbs, good idea. HeeHee :p
     
    Prisoner, Jan 26, 2004
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  12. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Software players are already here. WinDVD5 has a DVD-Audio addon, and cheap authoring is coming too. discWelder Bronze for $99.
    There are a lot of DVDA/SACD online too - it's the only place I can get them, as the local record shop thinks DVD-Audio means the DVD-Video music discs!!!
     
    wilkes, Jan 26, 2004
    #12
  13. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Prisoner ... you are right. The mass Joe Publics have never been "Audiophiles", and for many, MP3 IS the way to go. But I betya, that if they had an opportunity to hear a truly decent audio system (even 2-channel stereo), they would not be able to help notice the profound difference it can make in the reproduction of music, especially when sourced with DVDA or a decent turntable.

    The audiophile market has always, traditionally, been extremely small compared to everything else that's out there. I'm just happy that the (relative) few of us who are left, are still discussing these matters and pushing for the best.
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 27, 2004
    #13
  14. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    Wilkes, that was my exact comment why I don't think DVD-A will make it big. Too many people think it a DVD (regardless of whats after that title) equals Video. I did find it funny that the local Sunrise here buts DVD-A directly after DVD-V but SACD, have there own section or are sumtimes intermixed with the audio CD's. But with that said I went to HMV on Younge and Dundas, a Store clerk didn't know what a SACD was. Even though the did sell them! So I think it is still very early in this technology. I don't think I can call a winner yet in this war.
    A_Klingon, I do agree that the sound is much better. And some will most likely switch to the good quality of either SACD or DVD-A. However with MP3s taking over the minds and advertising space of the general world, it will take a lot of time to get through.
    Funny I was talki to someone about SACD/DVD-A and they wanted to know how to convert it to Mp3 to play on there portable player. They lost the point.
     
    Prisoner, Jan 28, 2004
    #14
  15. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    As an offnote, there *is* a valid place for mp3 files - from whatever source, even hi-res - namely, walkmans. (Or should I call them "Jogmans"?) [​IMG]

    I'm an old fart now, so I'm not much into the 'jogging' thing, nor do I take a lot of busses (public transport), but what the hell? If I'm going to have to spend $40 each for a dvda or sacd, (which is what they currently cost around here), I may as well try to get the best value out of it on the road or whatever.

    But no - I'm under no illusions - mp3 and dvda are different animals from different planets.
     
    A_Klingon, Jan 28, 2004
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  16. robmill

    robmill Member

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    Hummm,

    I find this thread rather interesting, I am an audiophile, and have both SACD and DVD-A. I do have a high end home theater, which I listen to all of my music in.

    There seems to be a lot of SACD bashing going on, I really can't tell that much of a difference, and to be honest with you I find some of the digital re-authoring of "albums" into surround formats rather poorly done (this is a statement about the recording engineers ability more than anything).

    Now with that said heres my review of the format:

    Pros:

    SACD
    Hybrid Discs
    In my area they are at least 3 to 5 dollars cheaper
    than DVD-As i.e. same as a normal CD.
    Hi Def transfers of original Masters in Stereo
    Hi Def re-engineering into Surround (also CON)
    Ability to play without the use of a monitor (big one
    for me)
    Sony Megachangers now support SACD
    Sounds Great
    CDDB Compatible because of Hybrids

    DVD-A
    Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
    Sounds Great
    Video Content (also CON)

    CONS:

    SACD
    Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
    No Video Content (I listed this, but I really don't
    care about it, and knew someone would comment on
    it)

    DVD Audio
    Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
    Mostly requires monitor to just play the music.
    Cost more than SACDs

    I'm not passing judgement on either format, if a title is not in SACD and in DVD-A I buy the DVD-A format and visa versa. Its more of a "Content" issue for me, except for one DVD-Audio issue I have.

    That being the need to play a DVD-A disc almost always requires a monitor to play it. What a pain.

    My main complaint about the industry is the in-ability to make a standard. And once they issue dueling formats they turn around and start issuing Duel Disc Players,,,,,,"they went thataway"

    Again, I'm not bad mouthing either format, they both have there merits and their problems. I do think SACD has a small edge in operabilty and ease of use. But I am a techno nurd, so.

    Robert
     
    robmill, Jan 28, 2004
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  17. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Not sure where you get the idea that DVDA needs a monitor to play it. One of the principal points when the format specs were written was the need for navigation to be easy to use, as well as considering the use of Audio-only players, such as found in cars etc.
    It is by no means necessary to use a monitor to play these discs - you are actually talking about DVD-Audio, not Audio on DVD-Video, right?
    If you are, then I apologise but it seems to me there is confusion here.
    I author DVDA for a living, and always author in an autoplay function.
    Also, on my player, SACD is in 3 layers:Stereo, surround & CD. your player needs to be able to navigate these sections with ease, and it is no more complex or easy than real DVDA.
    As far as the "SACD bashing" goes, my problems with the format are well known, but to summarize - have you ever seen the problems in the ultrasonic range??
    Also, Sony seem to want to put people like me out of business, as it is just not possible to author these ion a medium size studio, plus all SACD discs started life as PCM format, as you cannot mix a record in DSD.
    So given that, where is the so called advantage in using DSD? Also, most universal SACD players convert back to PCM for playback. Again, this kills the alleged advantage in DSD. I could go on, but this is not the thread for that. Do a web search on this. you will find a lot of people with some very serious objections to SACD/DSD.
     
    wilkes, Jan 29, 2004
    #17
  18. robmill

    robmill Member

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    I see your points and agree with them to a point. I retested my DVD-A after I received this update, and apparently it must be the function of the player more than the medium.

    I appoligize for the comments on that, but with that said,,,,,,

    With that said, I feel that both formats will probably stay in the relm of the audiophile, at least until mass market units are released, but then that hurts the sound quality of both.

    Robert
     
    robmill, Jan 29, 2004
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  19. robmill

    robmill Member

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    One more comment.

    After my post, I also note that your a vendor specializing in many audio formats, one being DVD-A.

    And therefore, I see even more where you are coming from, and the Sony Statements in your replys are that of a Competitor in a similar market, and in my opinion has a biased position.

    Sorry,,,,I like both and will use the one that wins the format war which probably not even happen because of the audiophile aspects of the formats.

    Robert
     
    robmill, Jan 29, 2004
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  20. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Naturally you should go with the format you prefer - I was only giving my opinion.
    BTW - I am definitely not a vendor, much less a competitor to Sony!
    I am part of a mixing/Mastering studio, and we have been working in DVD-A for 12 months with absolutely no problems.
    My main problems with SACD is the noise component in the Ultrasonic range, and the simple, undeniable fact that around 90-95% of SACD/DSD is a conversion from PCM. To my mind, converting from PCM sort of defeats the alleged benefits of SACD. It is not a "pure DSD" signal path. It starts life as PCM, is mixed as PCM, and is converted to DSD after mastering. Why is this? because editing & mixing in DSD is primitive, to put it mildly. You cannot mix DSD, you can do very basic EQ, and it is not available to anyone except those who want to farm their masters out without being able to check the work. SACD/DSD cannot be authored at all outside of the replicators.
     
    wilkes, Jan 29, 2004
    #20
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