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BRAND: No-Name (Generic)

Discussion in 'CD-R(W) Media' started by A_Klingon, Mar 20, 2002.

  1. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi OC.

    I often wonder about those 'bargain' discs even in this age of ultra-low CDR prices. I wonder when (if?) the price will ever bottom-out or even when the cost of shipping them will aproach the actual value of the discs themselves.

    Case in point:

    A local computer store here in Halifax (Canada) sells bulk, 100-unit, no-name 'generic' 80-min cdrs, for $48 Can. + local taxes = $0.55c per disc.

    Their ATIP: 97m 27s 28f
    Disc Manufacturer: Princo Co.
    Recording layer: Dye (Short strategy: eg. Phthalocyanine)
    Media Type: CD-Recordable
    Nominal Capacity: 702.83 MB (79m 59s 74f/LBA: 359849

    In comparison, a local WalMart Dept. Store sells what sure looks like an identical disc in 10-pak units (slim jewel-cases) for $8.97 + taxes = $1.03 per disc.

    Almost twice as much. Are these the same discs, just repackaged?

    Much less information is given on them.

    Their ATIP: 97m 27s 00f
    Disc Manufacturer: Disc ID not allowed
    Recording Layer: Dye (Disc ID not allowed; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.)
    Media Type: CD-Recordable
    Nominal Capacity: 702.83 MB (79m 59s 74f/LBA: 359849

    I wonder why the manufacturer chooses to block his identity?

    Both 80-min discs look identical. Plain, unmarked silver tops, recording side is a very pale greenish hue.

    Although I expect both discs to be very fragile/delicate (no upper-label buff protection as with, say, Kodak's 'Info-Guard'), still, I have found them (both types) to be very reliable. Believe it or not, in over 250 burns I think I had only 2 (two) rejects.

    (I wouldn't back my hard drive up on them though).

    Inner (clear) label of 100-pak discs say, "Princo P0921085470301". Inner (embossed) label (recording side) says "R8-11FF". (Oh my god, where's my magnifying lens? - ***squint***)

    Inner (clear) label of 10-Pak WalMart discs say "2ABIA/1/1 06072118-30". Inner (embossed) label (recording side) says (something! but I can't make it out - Oh my god, where's my *microscope*!)

    Needless to say, I'll expect a full report on my desk first thing in the morning.

    (Just Kidding!!) :)

    Actually, what do you think of these generic no-namers in general? (Any no-namers). Even if I use them for burning standard vcds (with the vcd-format's inferior error correction compared with data cds), they seem to work awfully well in my Sanyo dvd player. I know they're not very durable and require careful handling, but they get the job done. I wouldn't trust them for any critical application though.

    Welcome to after dawn, OC.

    -- KlingonAgent --


     
  2. OC-Freak

    OC-Freak Member

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    Well, noname is like day and night. Some may be just as good as other top quality discs and some may be so bad that no writers will write them correctly at any speed.

    The princos should be quite good stuff, maybe not the best in the world but generally no big problems.

    The others may be from some cheap company using MMM&M(MultiMedia masters & machinery) machinery, since I've seen quite a lot of those nonames that before was identified as MMM&M now being detected as CD-R id not allowed. But I'm not sure. These discs do probably have a bit lower quality than the princos.
     
  3. cd-rw.org

    cd-rw.org Active member

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    Yes, Multi Media Masters & Machinery (4M) ( http://www.4m-inc.ch/ ) makes CD-R production plants. Companies using their plants get 4M ATIP information. Typically they are quite allright. I have used quite a bit of them from the old 2x days and had no disappointments yet.
     
  4. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok, thanks, guys.

    I'll keep using them then, for vcds until my supply runs out (still have about 40+ to go). Maybe that's the key: I use 2x to burn the Princos for vcd use, not 4x or 8x.

    -- K.A. --
     
  5. cd-rw.org

    cd-rw.org Active member

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    It is not recommended to burn high speed media at very low speeds.

    This may result a side effect known as pit smearing. This means that the surface of the CD-R gets overheated and the markers (pits) burned on the disc will smear from the edges, so that their shape is less accurate.
     
  6. dRD

    dRD I hate titles Staff Member

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    cd-rw: The problem is that for some frigging reason VCDs _have_ to be burned with 4x or slower, because many, many DVD players have serious issues reading VCDs burned with anything faster than 4x.

    This is probably due VCD/SVCD specs, which basically limits the bitrate to ~2300kbps for SVCDs which is around 2x reading speed, so manufacturers don't bother implementing anything faster than 4x CD reading to their devices and then CDs burned with faster speeds cause problems.
     
  7. fallen_br

    fallen_br Member

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    A_Klingon: If you use Nero, you could try putting one of those Disc ID not Allowed CD's on the drive and going to Recorder - > Medium Info, hold the Shift key and click refresh (Without releasing shift).
    Generally the manufacturer info that was before hidden should appear (Below UPC/ISRC code field), followed by the Dye Type... The field format is like...
    "Manufacturer : Dye Type Number"
    So in this way you can recover the manufacturer info from the Not Allowed discs in most of the cases.
     
  8. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi guys, thanks for the input!

    cd-rw.org : It seems one is 'damned-if-they-do, or damned-if-they-don't when it comes to burning speeds. I wasn't aware of the pit-smearing problem occuring should a disc become overheated while burning. (My Panasonic burner runs very cool - *much* cooler, say, than when ripping a DVD in my Pioneer DVD-Rom). After burning a Princo to vcd at 2x, the disc is barely warm.

    And dRD is right. Unless a standalone DVD player has two, separate laser assemblies - one optimized for each media type - then that single laser has to do "double-duty", and you can be sure it will be optimized for dvd-reading, not vcd. Standalone dvd players, especially low-ish end ones like my Sanyo, just *don't* have an easy time reading vcds burned at 8x.

    And those bulk no-namers? Well, since they come in unmarked plastic spindle-packs, I have no way to determine what their rated speed is. But I suspect - at $0.55c per disc, it isn't very high. It doesn't seem to matter though - I have burned the fast 24x Maxell discs <Taiyo Yuden Company Ltd., long strategy eg, Cyanine, Azo> at 2x speed (for the three 'Godfather' movies for example), and they play back just fine! (Wanna copy?) :)

    (Just kidding, dRD, I'm aware of copyrights....)

    fallen-br : I have issues with Nero, at least the demo version. I'm not saying it isn't a fine program, but for me it creates vcds that make the letters "PBC" (Playback Control) show up on my Sanyo's lcd display. I have found that a 'PBCed'-controlled vcd is 'controlled' indeed - I am severely limited in what I can do with it. SO - I use Sony's 'CD-Extreme' burning software, which *consistently* gives me cracker-jack vcds. Note - I am making ver 1.1 vcds, ("linear play") not 2.0 with menus, stills, etc.

    But based on your suggestion, I substituted CDExtreme for Nero in order to determine the manufacturer, and guess what?

    Sony reports the manufacturer as "Ricoh Company Limited (OSJ 972700)" (!!) Holy-Moly- Sony identified what CD-I could not! (go figure) <gg>

    OC-Freak : Any experience(s) with Ricoh discs?

    Whether Princo or Ricoh, these no-namers, at 2x recording, pump out a rather enjoyable vcd !

    Much obliged.

    -- KlingonAgent --
     
  9. cd-rw.org

    cd-rw.org Active member

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    Generally lowering the write speed should/can lead to "stronger" markers on the disc. I haven't tried, but I have heard that the DVD/VCD players are very picky on this and would prefer to pressed media.

    Pit smearing MAY occur. It's a risk, but not a necessity. It comes from laser overheating the disc surface, not the unit heating up. I read about the pit smearing from RITEK press announcement. Naturally it depends on the drive and the media: How well does the drive adjust power, how resistant the media is, etc.

    So I didn't mean to say that one should never go for the low speeds.

    RICOH is a reputable CD-R manufacturer which delivers very good quality. Used by Hewlett-Packard, for example. I think you got yourself a good one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2002
  10. fallen_br

    fallen_br Member

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    Yeah, Ricoh discs are generally very high-quality, and generally considered "archival-grade". Much better than the Princos in my personal opinion, should last for years without degradation.

    A_Klingon: Most discs manufactured nowadays, even if absolutely unmarked, are generally at least 16x-rated, and should burn fine in some recorders even at 24x or higher, so, if you're ever burning non-vcd disks, you can use your recorder's max speed on those.

    Plus, if the disks playback fine, without artifacts, this means that a good-quality burn has been achieved, since the low error-correction in VCDs leads to artifacts when there is a high error-rate. Some 24x media might lead to errors, and, thus, artifacts, when burned at low speeds.

    Are they silver-tops as in without lacquer covering? If so, they're really more fragile, especially to "bending", but they should still last real long if well treated.

    Also, CDExtreme and Nero should coexist finely, with no conflicts, I believe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2002
  11. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh yes, Nero & CDExtreme coexist on my system without conflicts. And Adaptec's Direct CD as well. That's not the problem -Nero Burning Rom is the problem.

    If you ever find yourself in the unfortunate position of owning a vcd that makes the letters 'PBC' show up on your standalone dvd player, you'll know whay I mean, faller_br.

    Symptoms of PBC:

    Usually can't play the disc.
    When I can, I cannot fast scan in forward or reverse.
    Timing info doesn't show up. (MM-SS), Just those nasty letters, 'PBC'.
    If multiple files burned on vcd, cannot advance to next one, or return to previous one using the hand-held remote.
    (Etc. etc. etc.)

    CD-Extreme neatly sidesteps all these problems. I have taken Nero off.

    Oh yes, when creating data discs, I always use the max speed I have (only 8x), whether with Sony or Direct CD.

    Yes, unmarked discs - silver - no laquer - no protective buff coating - I store them in soft sleeves (60 to a storage box made by Laser Line.)

    And yes, I too firmly believe that (perhaps) the single most limiting factor in vcd playback on dvd standalones, is how well the player can handle cd-r media in general.

    -- K.A. --
     
  12. fallen_br

    fallen_br Member

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    Your problems with PBC should be only partial support of your standalone to the VCD 2.0 standard, of which PBC is part of. I never had those problems with PBC in my standalone, it works just as fine. So, unless there is a way to make Nero write VCD 1.1 discs, you really should stick with CDExtreme.

    Soft sleeves should work just fine for those discs, but remember to keep them dust-free or else you risk some nasty scratch while putting the disc in/taking it out of the sleeve.

    Also, I would recommend next time buying lacquer-coated discs, even if noname, for those are quite more scratch-resistant and should cost less than $0.05 more per disc, I believe.

    Yeah, the player's ability to handle CD-R media is the leading factor in vcd playback, but media quality is also important.
    I've once had real blocky/skippy VCDs on some bad media (for me) I tried once (Digital Storage Technology-produced...) on both my standalones.
     
  13. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    (finally!) - someone who knows something about 'PBC' (yay!).

    This is not really cdr-brand related so I hope no one will mind if I 'sneak' this quick one in here.

    Why in heaven's name did Nero (or anyone else) come up with this awful PBC thing? No one needs it as far as I can see. Yes, I make ver 1.1 vcds, and CDEx makes superb discs *every* time. I don't need or want menus, because when I can afford it, I hope to get a 3-or-5 disc tray-load dvd changer which will automatically load and play 2 or more vcds in sequence. (How I hate swapping vcds in the middle of a movie - brings back haunting memories of my earlier laser-disc days). Menus might bugger up the changer's ability to play one vcd immediately after the other.

    Honestly fallen_br, the only 'playback' control I need or want is the playback control afforded by my remote control. Make sense?

    Perhaps 'playback control' should be renamed 'playback restricted'. Sounds like something Hollywood or the MPAA would do.

    (What the heck is it for anyway?)

    You guys have been quite helpful.

    (Mike) -- KlingonAgent --
     

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