1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ethanol/Alcohol in gas, is it worth the price?

Discussion in 'Safety valve' started by ZippyDSM, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    I am keeping it simple so here we go!

    Ethanol destroys machines and makes food, gas and cars cost more, alcohol based alt energy needs to die, anyone care to debunk that?
     
  2. ddp

    ddp Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,009
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    128
    moved to correct forum.
     
  3. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Sorry I am too use to an all in one off topic setup ><
     
  4. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    your right to a point zippy.ethanol eats aluminum for breakfast.that having been said it has been proven to be a good fuel additive when used in moderation.keep in mind that most race cars except formula one run on alcohol.outside of the fact that it is corrosive to aluminum it has proven a viable additive.ive been a mechanic for almost forty years and see no end to this trend.
     
  5. ireland

    ireland Active member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ford and Toyota Blast EPA for Forcing Ethanol Blends on Public


    New proposal would allow up to 15 percent ethanol in fuel


    Corn ethanol is dead, long live corn ethanol. That's the message that the United States Environmental Protection Agency administrator Lisa Jackson seemingly sent when her agency proposed allowing blends of up to 15 percent ethanol at the pump. The proposal comes just weeks after Congress repealed the $5.6B USD federal subsidy for corn ethanol.

    I. E15: Killing Your Autos, One Engine at a Time
    Automakers are outraged at the proposal. Ford Motor Company (F) and Toyota Motor Company (TYO:7203) led the coalition of the unwilling.

    In letters to House Select Committee for Energy Independence and Global Warming's ranking Republican member, Rep. James Sensenbrenner (Milwaukee - Wisc.), the automakers rip the plan, which they say will likely void vehicle owners' warranties.
    http://www.dailytech.com/Ford+and+T...ing+Ethanol+Blends+on+Public/article22077.htm
     
  6. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Got anything showing how Brazilian cars deal with the ethanol?
     
  7. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    i think you will find they all deal with it about equally.from a mechanics point of view none of us like it.it is corrosive to aluminum,and it rots rubber fuel lines.looking back at my first post it looks like i am in favor of it.not so.from what ive been able to gather they implemented it to help struggling corn growers more than anything.that having been said,the car companies are quite capable of both building and tuning cars to run on ethanol fuel.not a great example i know but my buddies sprint car produced 500 hp on strait gasoline and 615hp on stait alcohol.the real drawback with this stuff is in small 2stroke engines.depending on how much ethanol is blended with the gas it can cause real engine damage.again though,i dont see an end to ethanol blended gas.not when you consider that at a 10% blend,on a million gallons you save 100,000 gallons by adding ethanol.and you can bet the oil companies bought into this heavy.lol.
     
  8. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Don't racing vehicles practically get rebuilt yearly?
     
  9. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    yep,or sooner,tho its not because of the fuel so much as the way they are driven.ive seen rail dragsters and funny cars get rebuilt between races.only reason i used the example was to show hp increase over gas.on the indy car circuit it was also considered safer than gasoline.ever see a formula one flaming crash as compared to an indy car crash?but i digress,as i usually do.something about old age.we definitely need better alternative fuel technology.
     
  10. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    I thought as much, I wonder if the power boost is worth the extra maintenance for them?
     
  11. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    not to my way of thinking.firstly the engine has to be designed to make the best use of the ethanol.secondly there is not enough ethanol in the fuel to make that kind of difference.i really dont see any performance advantage to ethanol blends and i certainly dont see a maintenance advantage.again it really looks like something the government cooked up under the guise of envioronmental responsibility so some hard up corn farmers can sell their crop.
     
  12. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    If we move to E85 there is, and even if you change out the rubber parts the spark plugs are still SOL....
     
  13. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    my bitch with this is that the older vehicles will take the brunt of the damage.if i was a conspiracy theorist i would think we are being pushed into consumerism.your older vehicle wont work well so buy a new one that can utilize the technology.soab,i think i could buy that theory.lol.
     
  14. xboxdvl2

    xboxdvl2 Regular member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    48
    i hate a chat with a m8 on fb about fuel.m8 works as a qualified panelbeater and does his own cars up.he said ethanol blend or high octane will give me more milage,he also said ethanol blend is safe to use.I personally havnt tryed the ethanol blend as im scared it will stuff my car up.I also noticed the standard high octane fuel at pumps are being replaced by ethanol blended and vortex.heard mixed reviews about vortex aswell.I currently drive a 1993 corolla and dont plan to upgrade to a new model car anytime soon.

    as for the government they say a lot of things are safe when it has been clearly shown they are not,doesnt matter if its fuel,food additives,medications or anything else.
     
  15. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Half the mechanics and car dealers I have talked to have said that the current blends reduce gas mileage in most vehicles. Now the newer higher mixes of 10+ might not but still it eats engines.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  16. aldan

    aldan Active member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    68
    well you know if the moonshiners were given a break maybe the corn farmers would have a new market for their corn and the government wouldnt be ramming ethanol blended fuel down our throats.ok,that was a joke.lol.
     
  17. ireland

    ireland Active member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    68
    EPA Mandates Four-Gallon Minimum at E15 Gas Pumps

    For a textbook lesson on the absurdity of the regulatory rabbit hole the Obama administration has created, look no further than the EPA. Of course, that’s an obvious statement, but when the likes of Mother Jones are even second-guessing their latest shenanigans, it’s reached a new level.

    The newest bit of red tape comes in the form of requiring a four-gallon minimum purchase from consumers already feeling pain at the pump. While it would be easy to put the blame solely on the EPA’s shoulders, diving into the weeds shows that there's plenty to go around.

    The mandate itself only applies to gas stations that sell so-called E15 fuel to consumers. Such fuel is “a blend of 85% gasoline and 15% ethanol,” hence the 'E15' moniker. Traditionally, consumers have used E10 fuel, which is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol.

    The rise of E15 usage has been perpetuated by the ethanol lobby and given credence by the ever-flawed Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) measure passed 5 years ago. Requiring greater use of ethanol is a continuation of government kowtowing to ethanol supporters at the taxpayers’ expense. This time it’s coming through pain at the pump instead of a check to Uncle Sam. And the flaws are apparent.

    For starters, the fuel only works in cars manufactured after 2001. That presents enough problems in and of itself for many Americans, but it gets worse. Not only does it relegate decades’ worth of automobiles to the garage, E15 is also not compatible with many non-automobiles like boats and lawnmowers.

    The problem is further exacerbated for retailers selling the fuel. Most gas station owners have no desire to install new E15-only pumps and have instead opted for 'blender pumps,' which mix the gasoline and ethanol based on the purchaser's selection.

    These blender pumps are full of residue, to the tune of 1/3 a gallon for every gallon pumped. So if John Doe comes along next with a lawnmower needing a single gallon of E10 and the customer before him pumped E15, he could be in for more fireworks than usual while cutting grass.

    Instead of solving the problem at its root by doing away with the Renewable Fuel Standards and letting market forces dictate what fuel is available, the merry band of bureaucrats at the EPA issued a mandate that any consumer buying gas at an E15 vendor, regardless of their individual need, must purchase four gallons or more. The idea here is that those purchases to the tune of four gallons and upwards renders the residual fuel amount too small to do damage.

    Putting aside the fact that many of the devices not compatible with E15, such as lawnmowers and chainsaws, require nowhere near four gallons of gasoline, a mandate designed to prop up increased usage of ethanol comes at the expense of Americans’ wallets and the very environment EPA claims to protect.

    Multiple studies have documented that ethanol’s negative impact on the environment far outpaces that of gasoline. The policy is a no-win scenario, and government’s backing of ethanol is an issue that both sides of the political spectrum can come to a consensus on.

    Environmental and fiscal factors considered, it is clear that the Renewable Fuel Standards must be amended to take a rational, common-sense approach to encouraging use of renewables without negatively impacting the economy. Rather than issue mandates that cost taxpayers and subsidize an industry that cannot stand on its own two feet, the EPA should consider actually using its platform to advocate the 'all of the above' approach Obama claims to support.

    After all, when left-wingers are starting to poke holes in an Obama administration policy, it’s clear that something has to give.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...ate-Exposes-Flaws-in-Renewable-Fuel-Standards
     
  18. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    I'd kill both oil and ethanol subsidies and force 4$ a gal price point on non ethanol and 2$(taxes included) on 10% or greater ethanol and desial for commercial use.

    Lets see how long ethanol lasts then. /lulz
     
  19. ps355528

    ps355528 Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    28
    There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late.

    The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank

    again.. what about Brazil where the main vehicle in use was (and still is) the air cooled aluminium engined Volkswagon Beetle run exclusively on 95% and higher ethanol for decades!! .. seriously guys you need to break your addiction to fossil fuels and your slavish reliance on big oil
     
  20. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Regular member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    I know but flex flue systems negate most of it. So its great if you have a vehicle made for it.

    Also the way we get ethanol is insane, we should have never focused on corn.


    The best way I can see to fix things is remove all fuel/oil subsidies, and I mean all of them.

    Then pay them 30% of the price(set by world averages) of each barrel refined in the US.

    Then enforce strict price control.You fusk up transportation the whole economy suffers, so no more of this price shifting based on speculation BS.

    Open up normal forms of oil production that ensure minimal damage to the environment.(you want to run a pipe or do ocean drilling then you focus on making sure shit dose not fail or spill,if it dose not only do you have to clean it up but are fined a billion a day). Fraking is a lost cause, get over it unless you can remove the chemicals and not damage water tables..

    Finally I would offer 100 billion or 50% of the unit cost up to 5 years to whoever can build a vehicle, offers basic crash protection, trunk space and a minimum 4 person capacity that dose 70MPG or greater in city driving.


    Its a shame gov is to busy giving all their money to out dated technology and business models...
     

Share This Page