1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

HDMI to DVI cable worth it?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by gear79, Jul 30, 2005.

  1. loyola

    loyola Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    hey,
    I'm new to the site and i figure this would be ,my last resort for my many question regarding high definition cables. I purchased a 50"
    panasonic lcd high def tv. Along with it i also bought monster cables
    to enhance my picture quality. Like you others I also like to play around with my home entertainment system trying to achieve the best quality of picture and sound as possible. Recently I decided to hook up the dvi cable that came with my tv. To my surprise the picture quality of this cable was both bad and good.The good thing about it is that I saw a better more crisp high def picture quality, However the bad part is that the picture is pale.The set up on my tv does not allow me to do much.i can only control the brightness,contrast, r level, b level, and g level. I'm a little confuse because I always thought that dvi would be a better cable than my component monster cables, with my component cables i can acces the picture quality i can change the color,saturation, and sharpness etc. I have the comcast motorla cable box with a dvi output. My component cables actually produces a more brighter color and just lights up the picture though the picture quality is not as great as the dvi. I called panasonic and they are no help at all. they sound like they have no clue about their product and offered no solution except that they said it might be the cable box that has the problem. If I buy a different dvi cable from a different brand do you guys think it can brighten the color more w/o compromising the sharpness of the picture,or should i just stick with my component cables? thanks for the help
    jonathan


     
  2. TooBokoo

    TooBokoo Guest

    Speaking of cables it's funny that we call Monster so overpriced. I was recently looking at a PC magazine where they tested about 6 different brand HDMI and Component cables against eachother and all performed virtually identical. Scary thing is, Monster was only the 3rd most expensive of what they tested. They had two sets of component cables that retailed for over 150.00 I don't know who in their right mind would buy them. They all tested almost the same as the 15 dollar cables.
     
  3. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    loyola,

    Never use free in-the-box cables! Yes the DVI connection is all digital and should yield a better picture. In some cases the component video inputs on the tv are so good that it is hard to tell a difference between component (analog) and DVI/HDMI (digital).

    It sounds like your DVI cable doesn't have enough bandwith to push all the high-def data to your hdtv. Buying a DVI cable, even a (high-quality) low-end DVI cable should rectify the problem. I recommend the AR Proformance Series. They have helped me alot.

    As a personal note, I have seen people bring back to my store components with HDMI connections because they didn't work! Cause: Free In-The-Box cables. The HDMI cable that came with the unit didn't have enough shielding to stop interference (FM/RFI and EMI) from ruining the signal. Solution: a new cable. We had a 4ft monster HDMI cable laying around that we where trying to get rid of so we tryed it out and it worked great. It ended up being his lucky day.

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2005
  4. loyola

    loyola Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    hey ced,

    thanks for the reply, anyway i purchased a new dvi cable i think
    it was dvi-d from cinemaquestn and again the picture was great. it was clean and crisp, however the picture is still suffering from the color department. i called panasonic and after waiting for an hour for service i still came out empty handed. the rep has no idea about their product and how it works. he gave me some lame excuse and I qoute "it might be the cable box that is the problem" I called comcast and ask if their box came with color adjustment set-up even though I knew it didn't, jsut to make sure. Just as i thought the only thing I could adjust from the cable box is the resolution i.e 720p-1080i. those cables costed me $178 but at least I can return them back. I should have automatically hooked up the dvi as soon as I got my tv, then I would have found out how bad the tv was model(pt-lc50) from panasonic. I just recently got into hight definition. I really did not pay too much attention until now. I'm still stuck with the same problem with no answer?

    jonathan
     
  5. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Well, I'm a firm believer in "You get what you pay for." The color problem shouldn't have anything to do with the cable box since the cable box is passing an all digital signal.

    I have found that the panasonic rear projection unit I sell has horrible component video inputs. I don't know about your projector as I have no experience with it, but the rear projection I'm referring to is a newer model.

    Ced
     
  6. DamonEB

    DamonEB Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    I am a technician and service Sony, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, and other HDTV units.

    The REAL DEAL about HDMI/DVI inputs versus the Component inputs is this:
    HDMI/DVI inputs transfer information DIGITALLY to your TV thus you get no distortion of the signal from any source or from your TV. IT's designed to go to the FINAL video processor that drive the output circuits...but component video has a couple more stages of processing which DOES INTRODUCE minor distortion...which is soooo minor normal human beings wouldn't notice....BUT a VIDEOPHILE would.

    Is HDMI/DVI cables worth IT? Maybe not, but if you have even a cheap $30 HDMI cable it is WORTHWHILE...because I have seen the DVI cables go for $100 last year....that is NOT worth it. So be happy you got those cables for $30. And if you're wondering, digital information tranfers don't require flat-topped "ones and zeroes" like Monster would like you to believe...their cabling would be an asset if the DVD/Satellite unit was located 100 feet away from the display (in cable length).

    So keep the cables, you invested $30 into...
     
  7. DamonEB

    DamonEB Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Gear 59,
    Subwoofer Hum is caused by open ground loops. Which means, if you have an RCA cable with a broken shield wire it will Hum, swap it with another one for testing. Also, if your amp OR Subwoofer has a 3 prong power cord and the other doesn't....break off the 3rd prong (for testing just get one of those 3prong to 2prong adaptors at Lowe's).
    Third, if you turn off your amp and the subwoofer is still powered up, that long RCA cable WILL act as an antenna and pick up hum from the house wiring. Power down the subwoofer...or get him a CLAPPER for Christmas.

    LOYOLA,
    Panasonic DVI/HDMI signals are DIGITAL..that means that the original settings that the Movie producers set up is what you see...it is a VIRGIN signal..Sure it looks paler. That's their setup.
    BUT you can make SOME adjustments, and here is how to step through the SETTINGS...

    Do your Brightness FIRST, it sets up the Black level of the signal,
    Find a person wearing dark clothing, adjust the Black Level to the point where there is no Detail in the Black Clothing. Then bring it up enough to see detail in the Black Clothing...Lapels, pockets, pinstripes, you want to see those.
    Then its the Contrast, Contrast sets the Amplification Level of the Signal, turning it up to maximum makes whites whiter, and midtones more intense.
    Lastly, set your color, even if you have to MAX them out.

    The broadcaster's NTSC settings are normally Brightness set to 1/2 (50%) the contrast is 3/4 to all the way up (75% to 100%) and color is normally 1/2 (50%)

    LASTLY, if you ARE WILLING to PAY...
    You can contact a PANASONIC AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER in your area to research and verify that there are internal adjustments for COLOR INTENSITY dedicated to the DVI inputs. Those adjustments are to Panasonic's ATSC specifications and most Service Centers do not want to change those specs...and they would be a pain to change, so expect about $150 to $250 labor if you find someone willing to adjust it the way you want it to be.

    PS I'm Panasonic authorized.....and I've seen the paler picture that you are talking about on other panasonic units...that's just the way the movie was recorded.

    Damon Brunger
    Fort Wayne, IND.
     
  8. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    So are you saying that the Panasonics are special or should this behavior reproduce itself on other tv sets while using a digital connection?

    I'm unshure what you mean by this statment:
    Do you mean that the digital signal doesn't have to be that strong in order to maintain a high level of quality?

    Ced
     
  9. DamonEB

    DamonEB Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Depends on what the designers want from their brand.

    Signal strength is only required to TRANSMIT...all other qualities are inherent to Digital. The TV only needs to distinguish a 1 or a 0 to process.
     
  10. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    Everyone: DVI vs HDMI and High Quality Cables:

    DVI/HDMI is always superior to analog componant if both the display and DVD player or STB (set top box) have properly implemented DVI or HDMI inputs/outputs, which is NOT always the case! PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED is the key.

    As far as expensive cables go, I feel it is pretty simple. If you can hear or see a difference, then buy the best that you can afford, if not, don't waste your money!

    Also, the $100.00 or so Monster Cable products that are being mentioned as expensive, are the LOW END of their line. Top Monster Cable Audio/Video cables are $1000.00, $2000.00 and more for a one (1) meter audio pair or video cable and over $3500.00 for speaker cables!

    Over the years,I have been very lucky to have been able to purchase (at dealer cost) and/or win (sales contests) an over the top collection of Audio/Video/Power cables worth over $150,000.00 at retail! They include models from StraightWire, Monster Cable, XLO, Nordost, Vampwire, Wireworld, Tributaries, Kimber Cable, Madrigal, Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Camelot Tech. and many others.

    Many people would say that the $15,000.00 (thats not a typo, $15,000.00) cost of an eight (8) foot pair of Kimber Cable BLACK PEARL speaker cables is just plain stupid... However, I can tell you that I use my pair with B&W Siver Seven ($9000.00) monitor speakers, powered by Mark Levinson 20.6 ($12,000) monoblock power amps, driven by a Mark Levinson No. 32 ($15,995) reference preamp, connected to a Mark Levinson 30.6/31.5 ($26,000) DA converter/CD transport setup using over $30,000 worth of interconnects! If I was to substitute, cheap $500.00 speaker cables in this setup, just about all of you would hear a big difference! (So my speaker cables cost $6,000 more than the speakers they connect!)So it is relative...

    They most important thing is, have fun. Try new things. Put your credit card down and take a $500.00 or $1000.00 video cable home and try it out. (Most independent stores will allow a 10 or 14 day trial period.) That way you will have a frame of reference regarding cheap cables and good cables in your system. Then when you are able to afford it, go back to the store and buy the best you can afford that makes a difference in your system.

    Good Luck BOB
     
  11. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    The thing is those $100 monster cables don't cost nearly $100. I don't think the high-end cables are massproduced are they?

    BIGBOB22, do you have any advice for how much someone should spend on cables for thier system on average? I have found that quality cable is important and that most of the time equipment will preform better when connected with quality hook-ups, nomatter if the equipment is cheap or expensive.

    Do you have a best cable manufacture and/or line of cables that you think is the best?

    Ced
     
  12. gear79

    gear79 Guest

    i'd personally say, unless you have high end equipment, then decent priced cables will not heed much difference. now what Bigbob22 has spent on his stuff is just flat out ridiculous (my system alone is not worth as much as them speaker wires he claims) but it sounds just as good to me as it did in the store where i bought them from. that being said, where i bought my receiver from, its a yammy rx-v1500 (retails for about 850, but i got it for 600 even) even they did not run top of the line cables, and they are the highest retailer here where i live. i never imagined (originating this thread) that it would be more of an off topic, but similiar topic, then what i expected. none the less, i do agree what bigbob says, buy what you can afford.

     
  13. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    Diobolos:

    A number long quoted as a rough rule of thumb is 10-15% for cables relative to the cost of the system. So if you have $5000.00 invested in your AV System, 500.00 - 750.00 would be a good starting point.

    I would by no means limit myself to this arbitrary number. If you try a $250.00 video cable or $500.00 interconnect and see or hear a worthwhile improvement, by all means purchase them!

    I feel that most high quality DVI/HDMI cables are about the same in short lengths. If you are trying use long runs to a projector, I would go with the best I could afford.

    I have been to Monster Cable in SF twice and it is a very impressive operation. Things have changed quite a bit in the last 5-7 years. As late as 1998, the cables where still made to order, that is, when a dealer placed an order for x number of I-400 2 Meter interconnects, an order sheet went to the floor, the bulk wire was cut and placed in bundles and then into bins delivered to a worker at a terminating work station (I stood and watched as a women grabbed a bundle of 12 wires, terminated them on one side with RCA's, turned the bundle around, repeated same in just a few minutes...very skilled with a solder gun), the cables were finished, sent to a packing area, bubble packed, boxed, and shipped out UPS. It was that basic. Later they built a building so they could begin to stock each model and ship from inventory. So in a sense, none of their cables are mass produced, if you mean by mass produced, bulit on a giant automated line of some type.

    All High End Cables are built and tested by hand by very skilled workers. Some top firms (Kimber Cable, StraightWire, and others) manufacture the cable itself to very demanding specs, spool it, and then assemble the product, all in house! Some will even custom imprint your frims name on the jacket of the wire along with foot markers.

    It is very dfficult to pick one cable brand because it depends on the equipment. The better the quipment, the more sensitive it is to different types of cables. A $7500.00 set of Nordost speaker cables my work great with a set of Audio Research Reference 610 ($40,000 per pair)monoblock tube power amps driving a pair of Genesis 201 speakers ($40,000), but change to a set of Mark Levinson No. 33H solid state amps ($20,000) and they could sound very poor, even though all the equipment mentioned is absolutly state of the art. (Just an example)

    With that said,for normal price levels of equipment, I would look at StraightWire (Level II or III), Monster Cable (M 500 or 1000 for Video), Kimber Cable (PBJ), and XLO to name a few.

    You are on the money when you say that equipment in general, regardless of cost, will benefit from higher quality wires. No doubt about it. Anyone can prove this to themselves, providing they have good hearing and/or vision in order to make the evaluation.

    I have sold many systems where the customer was ready to spend $100,000 plus, but thought that $15,000 for cables was stupid. I simply tell the customer the following, "It will be a complete waste of your money to buy state of the art gear and then wreak the perfomance by using cheap cables, I recommend that you buy a system in the $10,000 range and use cheap cables because you will get the same basic performance as the $100,000 system with cheap cables for $90,000 less." Most of them get the point, and since they know I sell on commission, why would I say that if it was not true and make so much less money on the sale!

    Like I said before, if you can't tell the difference, don't waste your money.

    BOB
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2005
  14. gear79

    gear79 Guest

    so let me ask you this BIGBOB22............
    how long have you been selling high end a/v equipment?
    how long did it take you to build your system?
    what kind of money do you make? (sounds odd, to read what you paid for your equipment, yet your here on ad)
    i've read multiple forums before, have seen guys like you in there, prompting that you know all, and it really gets old. i mean no disrespect, if you say what you say you have, then thats great for you. i can only take your word for it, as well as the rest that read this thread. unfortunately........... i am willing to bet money, that no member reading this thread will just run out and drop down (at the very least)......... 500 bucks on some audio/video cables. i know i would not. i'd say my system is in the $2,000 - $2,500 range, not including my tv, just sound and cables........ sure, i dont have the low end crap (junk that comes supplied with a/v equip. or wal mart cables) but i did buy name brand cables from best buy and circuit city. sure, my system is not the greatest in the world, but it works for me. i am happy with it, and all who have viewed and heard my system, they give me compliments........ it sounds better then the movies, felt like i was in the movie, the picture is more clear then the movies............ and so on, you get my point.
    i'd say i'd be crazy to have to spend all that money for stuff like you say you have, and even if i did spend money like that, i'd be divorced i am sure. unless you have an unlimited income or beyond donal trump.......... then go for it, but me, i will stick to my home theater set up.

    just what you say you have......... it must be 500 times better then a movie theater........ i bet you replace windows often then !!! ???

    this is just my 2 cents......... not a flame war, or even a knock against you......
     
  15. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

  16. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    gear79/everyone:

    The purpose of listing one of my systems (I listed prices as I assumed most people would not know the Brands/Models) as an example in the debate "Are expensive cables worth it, etc?" was to simply show that I have the state of the art equipment necessary to be in a position to evaluate and comment on any cables available from $.99 to $15,000.00 or more, something that most people can not do. The intent was not to brag, or be a "know it all" (I learn something new everyday, thats why I look at forums).

    To answer your questions; I have been involved with High End Audio/Video equipment for over 30 years. I have attended 38 CES Shows, 8 Stereophile Shows, 7 CEDIA Shows (CEDIA Memeber), and had numerious factory tranings(Mark Levinson, Proceed, Monster Cable to name a few). It has taken me these 30 years to build the systems I now enjoy.

    I never pay retail, most often purchase at "rep or display price" which is approximately 20-25% off of dealer cost. So if a product costs $2000.00, dealer might be $1100.00 or so, less 25% for a total cost to me of may $750 or $800.00 with no tax or shipping. I also receive a number of products at "no charge" to evaluate (alot of cables and power products), purchase products on the last day of the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) in Las Vegas saving the company the cost of packing and shipping display models back to the factory sometimes at pennies on the dollar and also win approximately $25,000-$40,000 per year in sales contests.

    I now operate my own business, but to give you an idea of sales/income at the last retailer I worked for (an independant speciality retailer), In the month of December, the store, with five (5) salesman sold $693,000.00 total for the month. Of that amount, I sold $441,000 on just two (2) major sales (one of which was a houseboat system that totaled over $242,000.00, the other, a home theater that ran $140,000 equipment/install only), and whatever I happened to ring up off the sales floor. My total commission for the month was $20,995.00 and NHT (Now Hear This) had a sales contest and I won over $10,000 in product from just that one company.

    My purpose in these forums is learn and help others learn. I have strong opinions, based on first hand experience. BOB
     
  17. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    gear79/everyone:

    The purpose of listing one of my systems (I listed prices as I assumed most people would not know the Brands/Models) as an example in the debate "Are expensive cables worth it, etc?" was to simply show that I have the state of the art equipment necessary to be in a position to evaluate and comment on any cables available from $.99 to $15,000.00 or more, something that most people can not do. The intent was not to brag, or be a "know it all" (I learn something new everyday, thats why I look at forums).

    To answer your questions; I have been involved with High End Audio/Video equipment for over 30 years. I have attended 38 CES Shows, 8 Stereophile Shows, 7 CEDIA Shows (CEDIA Memeber), and had numerious factory tranings(Mark Levinson, Proceed, Monster Cable to name a few). It has taken me these 30 years to build the systems I now enjoy.

    I never pay retail, most often purchase at "rep or display price" which is approximately 20-25% off of dealer cost. So if a product costs $2000.00, dealer might be $1100.00 or so, less 25% for a total cost to me of may $750 or $800.00 with no tax or shipping. I also receive a number of products at "no charge" to evaluate (alot of cables and power products), purchase products on the last day of the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) in Las Vegas saving the company the cost of packing and shipping display models back to the factory sometimes at pennies on the dollar and also win approximately $25,000-$40,000 per year in sales contests.

    I now operate my own business, but to give you an idea of sales/income at the last retailer I worked for (an independant speciality retailer), In the month of December, the store, with five (5) salesman sold $693,000.00 total for the month. Of that amount, I sold $441,000 on just two (2) major sales (one of which was a houseboat system that totaled over $242,000.00, the other, a home theater that ran $140,000 equipment/install only), and whatever I happened to ring up off the sales floor. My total commission for the month was $20,995.00 and NHT (Now Hear This) had a sales contest and I won over $10,000 in product from just that one company.

    My purpose in these forums is learn and help others learn. I have strong opinions, based on first hand experience. BOB
     
  18. gear79

    gear79 Guest

    see, now it makes sense... you operate a store, and can get products for less, plus it was accumulated over time. i frequent a/v forums alot and see plenty of guys bragging on what they have and then i ask a few questions and things dont jive, so its always fishy to me. anyway, like i mentionesd in my previous post, its not to knock you, i was just wanting more info on how you acquired it all and time frame.
    i also read tons on cables and hook ups too, and see the reviews and tests..... some times i see the best is not what its cracked up to be. i am at work now, i have a link bookmarked at home that shows a few tests on said cables...anyway ,when i get home,i will post it.
    but as far as that goes, i am an avid reader of all kinds of forums, so i never stop learning either.

     
  19. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    gear79

    I started with this business/hobby when I was 12 years old cleaning the store and parking lot of an old national chain called Olsen Electronics. Earned my first receiver and speakers from them.

    By the time I was in college I had the following system, most of which I still own: Audio Research SP-3a-1 PreAmp, Audio Research D-76a Power Amp (Mid/High), Audio Research X-Over, Phase Linear 400 Power Amp (one of the first high power amps, 201 watts per channel RMS @ 8 ohms) (Bass), Luxman PD-121 Turntable with Infinity "Black Widow" Carbon Fiber Tonearm (Very Rare), Advent 300 receiver for a Tuner and a set of Cerwin Vega 320B (18" Earthquake woofers) for Bass and Kustom Accustics (Now called Kinetic Audio) Monolith Speakers (Full range)with (4) 12" woofers, (2) 5" middrange, (2) super tweeters in each cabinet. It flat out rocked! It was good for about 122 db but still could reproduce delicate string quartets.

    Also, when you buy things at rep price, you can sell them after the model year is up, so some things I keep, others I sell and get my money back. But I gain hands on experience with the products over a period of time, in a system that I know the capibilities of and exactly how it should perform. I also receive alot of long term loaner products for evaulation as well.

    Hopefully my posts will be helpfull. BOB
     
  20. BIGBOB22

    BIGBOB22 Guest

    diabolos/everyone:

    diabolos dont take this personally, I think the links you post are very helpfull, but the one from "The HDTV Expert" is a perfect example of articles and companies that everyone should run not walk away from.

    It makes very little difference how a cable measures (other than 75 ohm coax should measure 75 ohms and should be terminated with 75 ohm connectors, etc.)What makes a difference is, HOW DOES IT PERFORM?"

    The "HDTV Expert" and others like him are of the school of thought that is a cable measures the same, than it is the same. What a joke! This being the case, how do all the top cable companies stay in business if they are all the same? If it is true, we would only need one company. Using this logic, the "free in the box" cables that measure 75 ohms tip to tip are just as good as a Kimber Cable D60 reference Digital cable that costs $1000.00! Clearly. most everyone at AD knows this to be untrue! I can hear the difference between a Monster Cable Z200d digital cable ($80.00) "a damn good cable" and the Kimber Cable D60 ($1000.00)"one of/if not the best in the world" in a heartbeat on my system, and a would guess a fair number of AD members could too, given the chance. That being the case, how hard would it be to hear a difference between the "Free in the box" 75 ohm cable and the Monster Z200d? Same thing, only more so, it is a slam dunk. The difference between the "FIB" cable and the Z200d is far greater than the difference between the Z200d and the D60. It is the law of diminishing returns.

    Now, if you want to talk video performance, also 75 ohm cables and termination, even more people at AD would see the difference! I am sure from your own experiences with your systems has shown you this. If not, you have very poor hearing and/or vision. I reccomend a hearing test, and/or vision test with the appropriate hearing aids/ glasses as your very next A/V purchase! If not, it is a total waste of your money buying quality A/V gear. Very frank comments, yes. Very true, also yes.

    The key is to take home different levels of cables and try them in your system! Buy the one that offers the best performance for the money that you can afford! Most of all, have fun with it.

    I love a 14 gauge speaker wire from HOME DEPOT, thats right, HOME DEPOT (total cost for 40' was $20.00) that I read about in Stereophile Mag. I am currently using it with NHT VT-2 Speakers in my office. The cost is not the thing, it's the performance that counts!

    BOB
     

Share This Page