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Mpeg 2 in Premier Pro

Discussion in 'Other video questions' started by trugmolly, Aug 20, 2004.

  1. trugmolly

    trugmolly Guest

    I did try to find a more appropriate forum. This is the closest I can find for my question.

    I am just puzzled. If I try and import a .vob into Premier I get the error msg as expected that the file could not be imported due to not having the filters.

    If I take the same .vob and trim it in Flask and when it is exported from flask I still have an mpeg 2 file.

    I have checked the ouput file in g spot and all the settings in Flask are correct.. mpeg 2 etc.

    It is just that when I do this then the resulting file opens in premier.

    Just wondering if anyone knows how or why this is so ?

    Thanks in advance
    Trug
     
  2. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    It is not the Mpeg2 file that is Causeing the Problem in the Vob file it is the Dolby Digital AC3 audio in Vob files that is not supported By Premier Pro or any NLE Editing program accept for Maybe Ulead Media Studio Pro 7 and that is only with the Right combination of Decoders installed....

    If you want to load this File into Premier to edit it you are Going to have to Demux the Vob file into a seperate M2v video file and an Dolby AC3 audio file and then you are going to have to decode the Dolby AC3 file to Wav/LPCM format, and then Load the M2V file into premier and Place it on the Time line as the Video and Load the Wav/Lpcm file in as the Audio and Place it on the Time line and do your editing....

    You would be better off useing a Video editor that supports Mpeg2 files with Dolby AC3 audio and one that is a Native Mpeg editor because Premier will Re-encode the Mpeg file to render it which will lower the Quality , That is unless you have the Mpeg editing Plugin for Premier Pro but even then it still doesn"t support Dolby AC3 audio....

    Check out a program called "Womble Mpeg Video Wizard 2003" It is a Native Mpeg1/2 editor that Supports Dolby AC3 and also can add Transitions and effects to the File and will only re-encode the Parts that have Transitions and effects so it takes only minutes to render compared to hours with premier....


    Cheers
     
  3. trugmolly

    trugmolly Guest

    Thanks
    That is a good concise answer to my question.
    Ist strange cuz probably like a lot of people I worry more about picture quality and kind of leave the sound to take care of itself somewhat. I had arrived at that answer after fidddling around for hours. I put the ac3 through Sony Vegas and make a .wav for import into premier.

    The think is that After effects does not like the m2v file.

    I do a lot of compositing and so mostly dealing with just a matter of seconds footage at any given time.
    I kinda like to make a sequence of bimtmaps of png's for this and use those then render.

    My background is 16mm film editing and so the wholel notion of compression and choices of codecs is rather new to me. I am getting a broad understanding slowly though...

    But this.
    I can appreciate that on a home system one could never achieve the same results as a studio with dedicated equipement and dual layer burning and proffesionals.

    still one wants to achieve the best results.
    My final delivery is for dvd disc and so I gather that mpeg 2 or divx if used correctly can give good results.

    I guess a good .wav then make an .ac3 in the final render and and mpeg two for dvd and poss the divx for cd rom and pc only usage.

    If I start a project with ac3 and m2v I know the 'garbage in garbage out' can I convert the m2v to something that After effects would import.. But still maintain the same quaility ?

    I know it is a long question but its not a simple subject by any means.

    Cheers again

    Trug

     
  4. shiroh

    shiroh Guest

    does that mean that you convert the ac3 to wav then back to ac3 for dvd usage ?
    if you do this is not a good idea. if you're encoding to a different format like aac, thats another matter, but back to ac3 is a waste, as you'll lose quality.

    i would suggest you to demux the audio like Minion said, dvd2avi can do this too. leave it alone. and only edit the video, you can use the wav to check sych, all that. but do use the original ac3 and remux them.

    answering the last question, yes you can convert from m2v to something else and without losing quality. it is called lossless encoding. codec like huffyuv, mjpeg and lots more. or you can use uncompressed.
    another way is to frameserve it, preferably using avisynth.

     
  5. trugmolly

    trugmolly Guest

    Thanks for that I will look at Womble and also look into
    Premier plug ins..

    As for the ac3 sound and demuxing that is the method that I will most likely use... Although I guess I would need some kind of system for cutting the Ac3 to match the
    edited .wav or mp3

    I forsee many happy hours ahead ..
    Thanks for your help and congrats to those concerned for a most excellent and helpfull forum

    Trug
     
  6. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    You don"t have to Do anything special to match up the AC3 audio...When you demux the Vob into M2V and AC3 and then Decode the AC3 to wav and Put the Wav and M2V on the Time line they will allready be Matched up..
    You will just have to encode the Wav back to AC3 after rendering the Project, or you don"t even have to do that as you can use Mpeg1 Layer 2 audio when Premier will render the audio to if you render to Mpeg2 or you can simply use the wav as the audio on the DVD but the problem with that is the Wav audio takes up a Lot of Space....

    If you use "Womble Mpeg video Wizard" then you will not have to decode the audio as it will load the Vob file and edit it without haveing to decode the audio....

    Also if you use "Ulead Media Studio Pro 7" to edit it will Load the Vob without haveing to decode or demux the audio and it"s encoder will also render your Project to Mpeg2 with AC3 audio....

    So anyways you don"t have to have to Sync up the audio cuz if you put Both audio and Video files on the Time line they will allready be Synced up...

    Cheers
     
  7. trugmolly

    trugmolly Guest

    Thanks again. It is actualy mosty helpfull.
    I will for sure have to take a look at womble and pinnacle.
    Like I say my bacakground is 16mm. I am not going to get into any debates about film quality and digital video lol

    But there is nothing worse than leaving a shoot and waiting for the film to come back from the lab and there is a hair in the gate.

    I am teaching first level students. Basic stuff. I am only half a step ahead of them myself.. the compression side of it I have only recently started to get to grips with. Photoshop and other apps I am more or less 'intermiadary' level.. which is ok.

    There is one question futher and you probably can help me out here also...

    All the work that I have done with mpeg 2 or avi or mpg1 is take 'found footage' and use that to learn the software from.

    If someone and thinking of my students here. I am a volunteer tutor and like I say the students are first base kinda learners. Bit like me lol.

    But if they go out with their storyboards to shoot footage..

    I need a workshop here myself. How should they capture ?
    At the unit I am at they have been using pinnacle and capturing to an 'avi through some Pinnacle software.

    It seems to me that this is not the best option.
    But not being familiar with digital cameras I am not even that sure of what options one has. But I can see that if they shoot footage and it is at the avi stage to begin with then they are stuck with that when it comes to putting dvd quality discs together..

    Cut a long story short what is the best option for capturing to the hdd. and the best option for the actual recording of the footage... So that the masters
    before any editing allow for a student to return to the project and re edit and have the best results..

    This is my last long post I promise.. But it is a crucial one..

    Cheers

    Trug






     
  8. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    Well if the Footage is Shot on a Digital Camcorder then the Footage is stored on the DV Tape in DV AVI format, The way you capture it (It actually isn"t really even captureing it is more a digital transfer of the Data on the camcorders DV Tape to the Hard drive which is a Lossless process) is you need a Capture program that supports captureing from a DV Camcorder Via Firewire port, Adobe Premier can do it....
    It doesn"t really matter what capture program you use as Long as the Program is meant for DV Capture because the Transfer is Lossless so the program has no effect on the Capture Quality.....



    When the Video is Captured in DV AVI format it is in it"s Native format and is at it"s best quality...
    When you edit the File in the Editing program and render it as a DV AVI file the Files should Retain it"s original Quality accept for areas were there are effects or transitions ,these Parts will be re-encoded by whatever DV Codec you have installed when you render the Project...If there are a Lot of Effects and Transitions then it might be better to render the Project as an Uncompressed AVI or Useing the HuFFYUV Codec because these Formats are lossless so there is no quality loss when rendering to these formats...

    What matters the Most with Creating a DVD from Digital Footage is the Quality of the Source Footage and the Quality of the Mpeg2 encodeing used to create the Files for DVD...


    You can have Pristene Footage and have it look terrorable once on DVD because not all Mpeg encoders are Created equal...Some encoders will Produce fairly good quality but they have to use a very high Bitrate to achieve the Quality which makes it so you get less video on a DVD....
    I can get allmost Twice as Much Video on a DVD when useing a Good encoder Like CinemaCraft Encoder with Half the Bitrate and better quality than if i used a Sub-Standard Encoder..I have gotten up to 3+ hours of DVD quality video on a DVD....

    I suggest that if Quality is the Biggest Concern to do your editing with whatever you are useing but render the project as a DV AVI file or an Uncompressed AVI file(or use the HuffYUV codec) and then use a Good Quality Standalone Mpeg encoder to Create the Mpeg2 files and then use whatever DVD authoring program you have to create the DVD...

    Many Video editing Programs Have built in Mpeg encoders and so do DVD Authoring programs but they usually aren"t the Best quality....

    There are only a Few Professinal quality Standalone Encoders and some are very expensive Like CinemaCraft Encoder SP which sells for $2000 or Canopus Procoder which sells for $600 but some cheaper ones are good Like Tmpgenc which Is about $50 and CinemaCraft Encoder Basic which is $58 and is probably the fastest and one of the best of the Bunch....

    Well I hope i came close to answering some of your Questions....
    Feel free to ask whatever you Like and I"ll do my best to help....

    Cheers
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]It"s better to be Pissed Off than Pissed On!!![/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
  9. trugmolly

    trugmolly Guest

    Thanks for that.. specialy about dv avi. That makes sense Now I can see the kind of creature that I am dealing with.
    I have used Tmpgenc and also flask.. We have Main concept encoder I think it is build 1.4 or something.

    As far as the students are concerned file size is not such an issue as their projects will be small and easily fit onto a dvd.. They are not making one and a half hour blockbusters quite yet lol

    I have now got a bit of a grip as to what G O P is and I P B frames etc..

    My next stage is to build a couple or so minutes of stock footage in uncompressed format.. Some fast action and perhaps some well lit talking heads against a static background probably include a few seconds of just plain white or black and then a direct cut to fast action; movement within the frame and camera movement.

    I have actualy become very interested in compression and will play around with bitrate settings and adjusting elements in the encoding set up.

    There are a couple of bitrate calculators floating around.. I think they are built with a divx 5 codec in mind and set to work for that format...
    It does seem to me and I do not know if this is feasable or not that it makes sense if one was after the best possible results.. This is merely a kinda tekkie attitude that has come upon me of late.
    I am actuly in awe of the compression technique and what the codec is doing sad but there you go lol

    So to cut a long story short.. it seems to make sense to break the footage into parts.. compress the low action static kinda elements separatly and likewise with the fast action scenes.
    If you could do this and then assembly edit them together again in an mpeg 2 editor. Just a cut and paste job.That seems to be an approach I would like to play around with.

    Also is there by anychance something that exists that one can d/l I am thinking something like an old fashioned test card here.. a piece of footage that is designed to test your encoding set up.. something like I mentioned above..

    Thanks again it has been very helpfull all the information is out there but it is nice to have it in plain English

    Cheers
    Trug
     
  10. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    You don"t have to Cut the scenes up into Low action and High Action scenes and encode them seperately..
    Most Good encoders when encodeing in VBR Mode alocate the Bits to each Frame Based on the Complexity of the Video...
    When useing a Mult-Pass VBR Encodeing method the Encoder Scans the File first and then calculates how much Bitrate should be used for each frame, So the Low action Scenes will be allocated Less bitrate and the High Action Scenes will get More Bitrate allocated....
    In CinemaCraft encoder there is a "One Pass VBR" setting that allocates the Bits on the Fly while doing the encodeing Pass, You might think that it wouldn"t be very efficient but it actually is Very Efficient, I have gotten 2 Full Length Films on a Single DVD with Great Quality useing that encodeing mode, Plus the encodeing only takes Like 1.5 hours for a 2 hour movie which is about as Fast as you can get....

    The MainConcept Encoder is a Good encoder But just make sure the "Search Method" and the "Search Range" are set to there highest settings for best Quality..
    You can also Capture video use the MainConcept encoder....It will allow you to Capture Analogue and Digital DV and Mpeg1/2.....

    Just PM me if you need anything ...Cheers
     

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