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multiple questions regarding software/quality, etc.

Discussion in 'DVDR' started by sepollard, Feb 1, 2005.

  1. sepollard

    sepollard Member

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    After making too many coasters to count using memorex discs and DVD X Copy Express (total sleeve minus one that worked), I came to this forum and started to read multiple posts about shrink and decryptor. I also read how some users like DVD One Copy better or nero recoder. Why is this? Is the compression process better and therefore producing better quality with same file size, or just user preference? it is my understanding that decryptor is the burning tool, and it would seem logical to me that this is irrelevant to quality (ie, decryptor v. nero) and that the "quality" is dependent more on the compression agent. True?

    Forgot to ask the difference in ISO and TS files? I saw that the guides say to choose ISO, but I am curious about why.

    I have purchased better media for anyone who was going to recommend that first.

    Thanks,
     
  2. ScubaPete

    ScubaPete Senior member

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    Hi sepollard, welcome to aD,

    DVDD is a ripper and a burner. There are times when both are needed. DVD Shrink is a ripper, compression and encoder BUT needs a burner to be able to complete the process.

    There are many 1-click type proggys most don't have the ability to control their encoding hence the backup suffers in the quality department where a proggy such as DVD Shrink can produce a better backup with fewer "clicks" than many 1-click- proggys (after setup).

    DVDD & DVD Shrink are also FREE. Many pple think that when free proggys do a better job than $$$$ proggys there isn't much left to decide.

    I am glad to see that you have learned about media. It is extremely important when trying to achieve a decent backup.

    I'm not sure what you mean by a TS file. You may be thinking of a VOB format, which are a bunch of files that make up the DVD in a VIDEO_TS folder. I would have thought that the information that you gleaned from the Glossary would have answered whatever question you had.

    Would you care to re-word your question ?

    As far as the "guides" you refer to - since there are so very many, could you provide a link to the one to which you are referring ? If it's a guide using freeware then you may be using DVDD to burn and it burns in an ISO image. Perhaps you might re-word that question also ?

    Thanks -

    Pete
     
  3. sepollard

    sepollard Member

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    I asked the ISO question before using decrypter/shrink to do a backup... So i see now that it creates the same folders as are on the originals (_TS folders). What then, does ISO mean or do? Also, is the difference in burning with Nero v. Decrypter irrelevant to quality? Have you ever burned with the DVD One Copy/Any DVD combo, and if so, is the quality better?

    My first attempt w/ shrink/decrypter was unsuccessful. i could see the folders and files in the video_ts folder on my computer but it did not work in the standalone player. My new, better media has not yet arrived so i just tried the memorex's agains since i am going to toss them anyway. The problem could be that i chose 4360 as compression size. I did notice that the ISO file was 100MB or so bigger than this (if I had known this i would not have chosen 4360 w/ memorex dvd-r's). Is that normal?

    Thanks,

    Scott
     
  4. ScubaPete

    ScubaPete Senior member

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    Burning is burning. The difference shows in trying to burn too fast. No matter what you use to fry, it is my recommendation to hold everything at 4X so as to eliminate errors caused by too much haste ("Haste makes waste."). trying to burn at 6X increases chances, 8X a bit more 12X, forget it and at 16X, I only hope you are in need of enough coasters to cover the neighborhood.

    I'd keep them. They are just fine for burning Data even MP3's, just not DVD Videos.

    There's no logic there . . . A DVD is either a DVD-5 or a DVD-9. I suggest you used 4360MB for regular DVD's, for Memorex, you'll do better with 4300MB as they have a rep. for having very poor edges. As for the size of your ISO Image or your VIDEO_TS folder, it just means that some compression is required.

    For the rest of my suggestions to get through crappy media, use my - "Uncle" ScubaPete's Last Ditch Suggestions to help you work your way through your "Really Cheap and I wish I hadn't bought this stuff." DVD Discs.

    HOT TIPS for your POOR MEDIA:

    !. This is a bit "wacky" BUT it has worked for some pple. Rebooting your PC (cleaning out all the memory) allows some discs to be seen better - As I said, it can't hurt and it's worth a try -

    2. Here's a good fix. Compress your DVD to somewhere around 4.3GB instead of the recommended 4360MB. I.e., Go into DVD Shrink, "Edit", "Preferences" then set the "DVD Target Size" to "Custom" and enter 4300MB as the size. Reducing the amount of Data to be burned it keeps your burning away from the disc's edges where the dye on poor quality DVD discs tends to be uneven and may even be brittle and flaking.

    3. You may reduce the number of errors and "artifacts" (the "freezing", "skipping" and other picture abnormalities) when burning poor media by burning at a reduced speed. It has been my experience that burning at 2.4X will succeed where faster burns will not. Don't be surprised if you have to burn at 1X. Some discs you're lucky to have it burn DVD Video at all. It will take longer but what the heck, you're saving money with those "Cheap" discs, who cares about time when you're saving $$$$ (Lol). Since you're compressing more it might be wise to burn just the movie, the less you burn the better the quality sooo, movie only, please.

    4. The "Magic cleaning" technique: Try cleaning your DVD discs. Yea, I know they're new and clean but do it anyway. Do it a few seconds before inserting it into your DVD tray, use a disc cleaner, eyeglass cleaning solution or 99% Isopropyl Alcohol and a soft cotton cloth and rub-a-dub, dub. As soon as you're finished, "Pop" it into your DVD tray and fire up your program. You would be surprised how many times your disc is now "seen" and works like a "Bad Dog". :)

    Now see how you do and report back . . .

    Pete
     
  5. sepollard

    sepollard Member

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    OK, finally got Verbatim discs. I got greedy on the first burn and chose 8X and the disc was unreadable in the player. I have since chosen 4X and all of the discs are readable but i have not yet watched the movies all the way through. I was able to burn using the memorex discs when choosing 4000 as size instead of 4360. Is the ISO file always much larger than the file size you choose in DVD Shrink? and am I never going to be able to burn consistently using 8X?

    Scott
     
  6. pfh

    pfh Guest

    Why do you need the iso file? An iso file is just one big file of the target info and can't be read in stand alone dvd player. From my understanding, iso files are used as kind of back up in case something happens to the source (in this case a dvd movie). This iso file could then be read on almost any computer and a new dvd could be made from it with the right software. I haven't messed with 'em really but yes, there could very well be a difference in size.
    Perhaps someone can enlighten a little more.
     
  7. spacedust

    spacedust Regular member

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    Some burners write better quality than others, You need to research your drive befor you buy it. Some do better burning one format over the other +R verses -R.
    I think I can speak for all of us who have DL burners we are just waiting for media price to become resonable so we can then skip the whole shrink process. You said you got verbatium media which usually burns well on most drives did you get +R or -R maybe you need to try the other format. From what I've seen these 16X drives are just a marketing ploy. Most drives that I've seen that burn above 8X the write quality is bad. The best write quality drive I've seen has been the pioneer drives which are still kinda high priced compared to others, And for those who do not remember this is the company that introduced the first dvd recorder to the market about 5 or 6 years ago it sold for about 5 grand. I've got to tell ya my old sony DRU510A wrote better quality disks than my new drive Sony DRU710A I have to slow this drive down to atleast 6X to get close to the quality writes as old drive. I almost wished now I would have went with pioneer drive. Maybe the extra money is worth it. Fixing to try some Verbatium +R(MCCOO3) on drive. I've been running Verbatium(MCC004)+R and Tiyo yuden-R(TYGO1). The tiyo does not look as good as verbatium on new drive, But this same Tiyo media looked great on old drive (DRU510A) Better than any thing so far on new drive. Just an example of same media on 2 diffrent burners can get much diffrent results. A .ISO file is an Image file. Think of it like a zip file but image file does not compress just takes all files and makes one. This is just a little trick to get your burner to burn the movie files on DVD media.

    Good Luck

    Spacedust
     
  8. dolphin64

    dolphin64 Guest

    Since I noticed some talk on the Verbatim 16X DVD+R discs I thought I would jump in and ask a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind answering. I bought the Digitalmax 16x DL burner at OM on Black Friday. Most would agree this is a Lite On Burner. My first question is if I burn at 16x and get a successful burn(meaning using Nero with Data Verification) with no errors. How could the quality of video be any worse because I burned at higher speed even though the digital data is supposedly all present on the disc identicle to the original. Not that I am challenging this, because I truly don't know, just curious.

    I just recently purchased the Verbatim discs at Meritline for what I consider to be a great deal, $.37 a piece after rebates. I did make my first burn today backing up a 4.36GB single layer DVD video(The Burbs). I used AnyDVD/Nero Burning ROM (no compression necessary) The burn said 16X, but probably averaged closer to 8X-12X Taking just under 7 minutes. Unfortunately I did encouter a data verification error, though the disc was still playable in set top player and PC. I am not enough of an expert to understand how to read the Nero log and understand what went wrong. The video seems to play just fine. I did notice a lot of artifacts, but this is an older film of poor quality. Since I didn't have a chance to rewatch my original copy to compare yet, I will ask if anyone out there knows if a faster write speed has anything to do with artifacts or if this is only caused by greater compression(which is what I believe). If not, what types of errors will occur at faster speeds. I read people's comments on AD all the time mentioning stay slow and safe, but I'd like to understand what occurs at faster write speeds. If my burn is not failing do I have nothing to worry about?

    System: AMD Athlon 1.2GHZ 512mb pc133 sdram, NVidia GeForce 2 Mx/MX400, OS on Seagate 80GB STA380013A, WD 200 GB WD2000JB, Micro Advantage 4X combo drive, DM 16X DL,
     
  9. ScubaPete

    ScubaPete Senior member

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    sepollard,


    Unlike DVD burners that you can update with Firmware, standalone players cannot be upgraded. Many times when you buy a disc that wasn't on the market when the standalone was made, you may have trouble playing that disc.

    As to your Memorex, though you are salvaging some of those discs for burning, the memory loss issue still continues. You may want to backup those backups on something that you can depend on for a little longer time. I have 40+ discs that I've lost. More than 40 Backups from 02 and 03 written on Memorex. I wish I knew then what I know now . . .

    IMO, sure. You'll have the same artifacts throughout as well as the same percentage of coasters. The choice has always been yours. Save a few minutes that you can tell your friends about OR burn at 4X and reduce the artifacts to almost nil and, for the most part, eliminate coasters. In my last 400 backups I can say the only coasters are the ones caused by me when burning at 4X. If you want 12X, go ahead BUT don't complain. As hard as it is for youth to understand, speed isn't always better.

    Having said that - let me add what I see coming. For sometime now 4X has been the "magic" speed to get the very best, I believe that with a few firmware upgrades, when the Mfgrs. have time to work on quality - I see the "magic" number rising. Not yet, because we have been looking for it and it's not here yet BUT soon. Will you burn at 12X or 16X ? I very much doubt it, not without crappy results. Will there be pple bragging about burning at 16X sure and they'll be looking for answers to improve quality as there won't be any of them that will believe that slowing down is the answer. You'll learn and they will too BUT not until you become tired of making crappy backups.

    BTW, an ISO image is about the same size as the VOB format size. That time that it's larger is because it's copying 100% of the original not just part of it. The difference - when movies are multi-angle the ISO image is the DVD. When ripping in the file mode some of the "interweaving" of the multi-angles are lost, hence, the VOB files are smaller.



    pfh,

    One large file, yes - can't be read in a standalone player ? Hogwash. Of course it can be played, why couldn't it ? An ISO Image IS the DVD. Actually, the reason an ISO Image may be larger than all of your VOB files is that an ISO image is everything that's on the original whereas ripping in a file mode doesn't necessarily get it all.



    spacedust,

    Really ? Not for some years has there been a difference. A burner does just that, it burns what it's given. It doesn't alter quality. It cannot make it better and it doesn't make it worse. What are the differences in burners ? Speed, firmware, durability and generally name recognition.

    Again, not for several years. Here's some more recent information on discs, give a read, it will answer many of your questions -

    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.10

    Actually you said it, slow your burn rate down and you'll have less artifacts and a nicer backup. Burn at 4X and you'll see that all the drives give you an excellent product.



    dolphins64,

    For the same reason that when you're driving down a strange road at night and you're going too fast you'll probably miss your turns BUT if you drive slowly the chances are you won't get lost. When you go fast, you miss things - that's a fact. When you finally come to see that, you'll see that the extra time for quality settings and for dual-pass encoding make more of a difference too.

    When you burn at 12X OR 16X you'll wind up with quite a few artifacts BUT slow that "puppy" down and that backup will look better. Don't take my word for it, try it your self. That's how we found out, by trial and error. I'm just trying to save you the time and trouble that all of us have gone through learning that hard fact of life.

    Dial that burn speed to 4X and try it again. Do it from the beginning and see the difference.

    There you go gang, there are your answers, take them or not - it's up to you. Bragg about that 7 min. burn OR be happy with a, "hard to tell it's not the real thing" backup that took an hour and 1/2 for quality settings and a dual-pass encoding and a 14 minute burn.

    Cheers,

    Pete


    Pent 4, 2.84Ghz, 1024MB RAM, G-force,128MB and 520GB HD, DVD ROM, Pioneer 107 8X, NEC 1300A (hacked to burn at 8X)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2005

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