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PAL avi to NTSC dvd

Discussion in 'MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoding (AVI to DVD)' started by Mr_Del, May 4, 2005.

  1. Mr_Del

    Mr_Del Regular member

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    Just from the title you probaly already know my problem. I am not a video wiz yet but learn more everytime I can research this problem. So here it is.

    I have some XVID PAL files (25Fps) I want to put them on NTSC DVD (29FPS) I know frames just cant be pulled from thin air so there would most likely be some video issues with a conversion. I am looking for a way to eliminate or minimize the video effects. I have used VSO to convert to VOB. This creates slight jerkiness in the video and only make VOB at 1 gig then creates a second for the same clip. I need one VOB (does not matter what size it is) so I can author disk in DVD lab later. VSO does not give you controll of output file size. I have read that mose programs will just print the 5 frame twice or something like that. If so then is there a way to "stretch" all frames so no frame gets repeated? I guess that could mess with audio sink.

    I have used TMPGEnc 2.524. I have read to use this program and convert the PAL to NTSC 23FPS (or something like that) with 3:2 pulldown. Well I am unable to find the part to conert to 23FPS but have found the 3:2 pulldown part. I used the wizard on one file for a test. Not only does it want to incorrectly resize the video (16:9) but the final file is also jerky with digital tearing. Much worse than VSO. It was set to full screen (maintain aspect ratio)

    The more I search the more I realize there are not many programs out there for this purpose. What would happen if I left the file PAL and burned with DVD lab as NTSC? I have not tried this and before waisting the $1.50 I would like to know. Would a NTSC player play the disk? DVD lab does not convert files BTW.

    -Del
     
  2. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    A couple of ways to get PAL to NTSC.
    In tmpgenc, select the output (on the Settings tab) to 23.976fps and use 3:2 pulldown when playback.
    On the Advanced tab, set source aspect at 1:1 VGA, Keep Aspect Ratio 2.
    Try a test encode of about 10 minutes, and see how it looks.
    If you're not happy with it, here's method #2.
    Encode as PAL in VSO Divx to DVD.
    Demux the video in ReJig (this will join the .vob's into one m2v video, and one AC3 audio.
    Open the m2v in DGPulldown (it's on the Doom9.org site, free).
    Use it to convert the video to NTSC.
    Load the converted video, and the original AC3 audio into DVDLab.
     
  3. Mr_Del

    Mr_Del Regular member

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    Ok I tried both ways mentioned. The first way had bad results. When motion got fast you could see JPG type blocks all over the place. Frame rate was good but the blocks kill the deal.

    The second methood was perfect with one flaw. The video remained in PAL. DVD lab will not let me burn a NTSC disk with the video in PAL. So I end up with a PAL video at 29FPS and the aspect ratio is unchanged. I thought I would get smat and run this new PAL file through the programs again. I DVD authored it with rejig. The VOB was perfect but still in PAL. So I try to run that VOB through VSO to force NTSC. Well it did the job and frame rate was acceptable. The only bad is the Aspect ratio was not kept and everyone looked like streached Christmas gnomes. I am dealing with XVID files in PAL at 16:9 ratio.

    I also ran the final m2v file through TMPGEnc thinking I could convert to NTSC there. It refused to encode the file with my selected settings. Said something about bitrate=width*hieth+frame rate. Whatever that means. Letting it do it the way it wants to leaves it in PAL and messes up the aspect ratio.

    I vote for methood 2 but need a way to convert the final file to NTSC without messing up the aspect ratio. The frame rate is correct for NTSC just not the encoding or something. Im so close now I can taste victory.

    Thanks
    -Del
     
  4. djboogie

    djboogie Regular member

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    Although not perfect, I have found that canopous procoder 2 does the best PAL / NTSC conversion. If youre after a basic conversion I highly recommend it
     
  5. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    In order to use method #2, you MUST encode the video to a non-standard mpeg-2.
    Retain the 25fps, but it must be resized to 720x480 NTSC.
    How you do that, depends on the encoder.
    Once you have the video at NTSC aspect, then dgpulldown will correct the framerate, and the finished product is an NTSC spec video, which DVDLab will accept.
    Your other option is to add a second VTS in DVDLab Pro, put the PAL video into that VTS, then use the bridging tool to link the movie from the menu.
     
  6. Mr_Del

    Mr_Del Regular member

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    Ok the m2v (PAL 29 FPS) file I created can be used in DVD-lab. DVD lab will not author disk if I haave NTSC selected as the type of DVD to make. I would have to switch it to PAL and it will author. The only problem there is when I use NERO to make the DVD it may not play in my NTSC system. That M2V file is perfect.

    So now the new question. If I make this DVD all in PAL and author in PAL, can I use another program to convert the made DVD files to NTSC? Something like DVD decrypter or maybee some plugin NERO may have. Basicaly RIP the DVD from my Hard drive to change it to NTSC before makeing a coster.

    I used all the software you mentioned. How am I suposed to resize the picture to NTSC standards and it still be PAL. Later use the next program to make it NTSC. That line confused me when comparing to your first set of instruction.

    Procoder weighing in at $800 with no demo to be found makes that not an option.

    Thanks
    -Del
     
  7. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    The m2v that you created was done wrong.
    I specified that it must be 720x480 (NTSC spec) but retain the 25fps framerate.
    This is a totally non-standard m2v and won't play in much of anything, except on a computer.
    Tmpgenc would probably be the easiest way for you to get this type of m2v.
    Once you have it, THEN use dgpulldown on it, and select "25->29.97 fps".
    THAT video will be exactly the same length as the original, yet DVDLab will see it as an NTSC, and allow you to author it.

    BTW, Canopus Procoder Express is only $59
    http://www.canopus.us/US/products/procoder_express/pm_procoder_express.asp
     
  8. Mr_Del

    Mr_Del Regular member

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    Ok I am makeing excellent progress now. Its so close that if I was not into perfection then I would accept it. Here is what I have done now.

    You know that m2v file I like so much but it is stuck in PAL. I decided to play with it. I open that file in TMPGEnc an tried many settings to make it NTSC. Remember I started with an XVID in PAL 25 FPS in 16:9. The final settings made in TMPGEnc for that m2v file are:

    In settings video
    MPEG-2 Video
    size: 704 x 480 (thanks to your second note)
    aspect ratio: 16:9 Display
    Framerate 29.97 Fps
    Rate control mode: Automatic VBR (CQ_VBR)
    Profile and level: MP@ML
    Video format: NTSC
    Encode mode: Interlace (I need this one explained to me)
    DC Component precision: 10 bit
    Motion search Precision: Normal

    The Advanced settings
    Video source type: Interlace (left it at default dont understand this)
    Field order: (Field B) (I assume this has something to do with interlace)
    Source aspect ratio: 16:9 625 line (PAL) Without chaging to this the black bars end up on the sides wrather than top and bottom.
    Video arrange method: Full screen (keep aspect ratio) What is the diffrence in keep aspect ratio 2?
    Only thing checked is "Do not frame rate conversion"

    I then take that m2v created from that into DVD lab. I add the AC3 from rejig. Encode the DVD to Hard drive as NTSC. Play back in media player and watch. The frame rate is perfect. The problem is on fast video I get those JPG blocky looking things still. They are not as big as they used to be and am unsure if they will be visible on a TV yet. I am aware that some flaws noticed on a PC will not be seen on a TV due to thr massive resolution difference.

    So now I am very close. How can I further tweak the TMPGEnc setting to rid of those blocks?

    -Del
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2005
  9. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    Your settings are very close, but not quite...
    In tmpgenc, settings tab, make sure it's 720x480 to be totally NTSC compliant. SOME players will do 704x480. If it works for you, fine.
    Set the output to 25fps!!! We don't want to convert the video, we are going to use dgpulldown to "fool" the player.
    On the Advanced tab, set source as 1:1 VGA, not 16:9. This lets tmpgenc add the borders IF NEEDED, at the correct aspect.
    Keep aspect ratio "2" is slightly faster than the other. I always use it.
    The stuff you're seeing is called macroblocking. The best way to get higher quality, is to use VBR-2pass, but it's going to take a very long time.
    If using CQ-VBR, then click the Setting button beside it, and move the slider up to 80, 90, or even 100. This will slow it down even more, but you should get better quality, and still be faster than VBR 2 pass.

    Interlace settings should usually be left alone. Tmpgenc is fairly good at determining if the source is interlaced or not, and it really won't make any difference, because a TV can play interlaced as easily as non.

    Once you have the mpg. Demux it to m2v and mp2. Discard the mp2, as you're using the AC3 extracted earlier.
    Run the m2v through dgpulldown, 25-> 29.97 fps.
    Load the finished dgpulldown.m2v into dvdlab, with your ac3, author and test for sync.
     
  10. Mr_Del

    Mr_Del Regular member

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    The past few days I have been downloading and trying other programs to make things cheeper and better results. Here is what I have found.

    Allthough TMPGEnc is a good program it has some problems. For one, the blocks I mention durring fast video will not go away despite all the settings I have tried. These artifacts are noticable when played back on a TV. Because of this I have given up on on the program.

    I saw a program mentioned called SVCD2DVD. Many fourums said it was not good at what I am trying to do. They where talking about Ver1.5. Well I go to its website and see that Ver 2.0 is out. Even though most forums give it a thumbs down I decide to try it out. The claim on Ver 2.0 is that it can now convert PAL to NTSC. Just what I am looking for. So I try out the DEMO, Which will only author up to 2 gig. I stick my file in it and let it do its things, after 3 setting changes. 45 minutes later I have success.

    -The final copy looks just as good as the original. Aspect ratio is correct and no blocky artifacts. Audio is not out of sync. And best of all IT is in NTSC so I can take it into DVD lab add the menus and make the disk. Although SVCD2DVD has a thing to make menus, they are very basic and can't go into depth like DVD lab can. Oh yeah, the best part. To get the full version will cost you $20 USD with a promise that all future versions will be covered in that $20. So when Ver 3 comes out you don't have to shell out more cash to get it. The programmer has forums on his site and he frequently answeres concerns about the program.

    So there you have It I found something to make perfect XVID PAL 16:9 to VOB NTSC 16:9 files. SVCD2DVD does all the steps mention on the second post in this thread. Demux,Convert video,pulldown, mux, Make VOB (1gig in size). I lose the last 10 minutes of my videos due to the 2gig cap. But how does a 350 meg AVI turn into a 2 gig set of VOB? I have not surrendered my $20 yet. Trying to see if there is a free utility to split my XVID in half. That way I make 2 vob and join them in DVD LAB. I know $20 is cheap but I'm hurting on cash at the current time.

    So thanks for your help. Even though it was not they way I ended up going. I did learn a bunch about video durring this quest. Your efforts where not futile. Now I know what is going on in the conversion process and what to look for in future programs.

    Here is a thought though. I use my TV out sometimes to watch these videos. On the TV it is perfect. So the PAL files is playing on the computer, Then converted to NTSC through the TV out with no problems. How is that possible? Computer signal as a whole is sent NTSC? One of my TV sets have Video/Audio out jacks (strange isnt it) I do not own any DVR device but if one was hooked up to the out jacks wouldn't that make a perfect copy in NTSC as well? Assuming you can get the Vedio straight on the TV.

    -Del
     
  11. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    Because avi's are compressed differently than mpegs.

    Use virtualdub to split.

    Why have svcd2dvd make vobs, if you're just going to remake them in dvdlab? Doesn't it have an mpeg-2 output option?
    I played with it for a while, and it's OK, but will only work on avi's that are a given framerate. It won't work on any non-standard fps avi's. What a waste.

    Spend the $59 on Canopus Procoder Express. Load avi, encode to mpeg-2, author in DVDLab. You can't find a better encoder for the price.
     

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