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POLL - Should the law allow restoration of old records to CD/DVD?

Discussion in 'High resolution audio' started by wilkes, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark.... (mfurj)..... if you're still out there, I need your snail mail address, ok?

    I (naturally) forgot where I put your envelope (with the Pioneer review), but I am going to have the publisher of UHF (Ultra High Fidelity) magazine send you and Wilkes the latest issue.

    There's a piece in there about the "death" of the DVD-A format in favour of SACD that makes for interesting reading. Was it Mark Twain who said, "Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." ? <gg>

    Will send you a PM. (thankee)

    We now return you to your regularly-scheduled conference.....

    -- Mike --
     
  2. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    Interesting to see a Moderator post a completely off topic comment to an old thread. I was surprised you didn`t just PM them.

    But glad you didn`t, what issue will that be published in? I will have to read it as well.
    Thanks A_ Klingdon.
     
  3. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hellooooo Prisoner !!! [​IMG]

    Off-topic is my specialty, Prisoner. (Or an unfortunate 'habit' of mine; take your pick). :)

    Whatever works, eh?

    Actually, I did. And sent email(s) too. Like I say, whatever works to get his/their attention, eh? (Still waiting for a response from Mark; Wilkes has responded).

    This is the magazine/issue in question, Prisoner:

    [​IMG]

    Do you think I can find a copy of this thing *anywhere* locally? (Oh, nooooo....) Every place I've gone to is sold out. Like Sherlock Holmes once remarked, "Hmmmm, my dear Watson, something is afoot." :)

    There is what I consider to be a very controversial piece in this issue which starts out...

    [bold]How SACD Won The War (or) to put it another way, How DVD-Audio Blew It Big Time.[/bold]

    Note the past tense wording used in these ipso-defacto statements. I don't know how it is that an audio format can be won or lost simply by a magazine's say-so, but since I have been reading this publication for over twenty years, I have come to regard the opinions/outlooks of the publisher, Mr. Gerard Rejskind, very highly. It is quite out-of-character for him to make such definitive statements out of the blue like this, and so I am [bold]most eager[/bold] to read the full piece. (As soon as I can get my mitts on a copy of the mag!) :)

    Earlier, he had written...

    "[bold]The War Winds Down. -- [/bold] No, I'm not referring to that little skirmish in Iraq. I'm talking serious hostilities: DVD-Audio versus SACD. A year ago it looked like the Mother of All Battles. Today? The troops of Sony and Philips are occupying the terrain. It's all over but the reconstruction.

    "What happened? Didn't DVD-Audio have a natural advantage, with some 160 companies behind it, versus only two for SACD? What about the claim that, within a year, all DVD video players would also read DVD-Audio? But it never happened. It seems that if you have 160 parents, none of them would take responsibility for feeding you.

    "Until now, we had been cautioning readers against investing money in what could turn out to be the sonic equivalent of Betamax. The question is now clear: DVD-A is Betamax, and SACD is VHS. The war is over."

    I don't necessarily agree. Do you? I like both formats, but I am no closer today in believing either format has definatively "won" any more than I was a year ago. I don't like technologies I can't understand, and quite frankly, SACD's "DSD" encoding confuses me. On the other hand, DVD-A's Linear PCM seems very straightforward to me.

    You can download a small, rather-handicapped sampling of the magazine-in-question in .pdf format, Prisoner, from here:

    http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue70/Issue70.html

    Wilkes (Neil) has already responded (he even said that he would impart his thoughts to the publiaher, and Neil is in a very good position to do so), but I have yet to hear from Mark.

    (Don't know where he's hiding, but I *do* know that he, like me, hangs out in very obscure 'Net Places', so I'll track him down sooner or later). [​IMG]
     
  4. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    I own a Sony DVP-Cx985V player which plays only SACD. I have not heard a DVD-A. I have tried to ask for DVD-A in some stores here in Toronto and people get confused and think I want Video recordings of shows. But with Super Audio CD (SACD) they know what I am talking about and show me the 10 or 50 that they may have in stock.

    I have read the papers Wilkes kindly sent to me. I was a Graduate of University of Waterloo. But still have issues believing the reported results in the one paper about damage issues with SACD. The only negative I could think of SACD was that a lot of Speakers want to use the high frequencies for wireless comunication. And I question if you could get slightly more interference with SACD than DVD-A format.

    But I think I still vote more on the SACD side of things, but I have not listened to a DVD-A disk, So you do need to take that with some salt.

    Thanks for the journal link. With you massive Mod poweres could you cut out our conversation and create a new thread here? Call it DVD-A is Dead, I think would create more disscussion.
     
  5. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, until Wilkes responds (hopefully after reading the issue), I'll hold off doing the cut & paste thing. (Or just start a new thread). We're really rehashing a year-old conversation here.

    Prisoner, in my own, very limited listening, I have found DVD-A to sound better than SACD *in general*. Even though I love music, I'm not, perhaps, the most discering of listeners nor do I have the best equipment to listen on, BUT, I think a LOT of my perceived quality judgements *may* have more to do with the studio mastering of these albums (of either format), than the actual technology used.

    Doesn't matter technically how good a format/technology is if the sound engineer or label couldn't give a damn about properly mastering it. I've read many online reviews of just-released sacds which were all but condemned for their miserable sound quality. (Fantasy Record's Creedence Clearwater Revival's catalogue comes to mind.)

    I do confess a certain "leaning" towards SACD, if only because it is an exclusively NON-Video format. In my Pioneer player, sacd's act *just* like red book cds - NO frikken menu is necessary, which means no *monitor* is necessary either. After the initial setup, the simple, front LED display is all one needs. Perhaps that is why, also, there is less confusion in your own area, when you ask sales clerks for SACD's vs. "DVD-Audio". There is an appalling lack of consumer knowledge/awareness re: DVD-A, and I think the lion's-share of blame for *that* has to be dumped squarely on the heads of the major labels who make and market DVD-A. To that extent, I DO agree with UHF magazine. ("DVD-A blew it big time.")

    I love video too, and although video and audio are inextricably intertwined, I believe (and want) genuine HI-Resolution audio to be able to stand on it's own merit, *sans* the extra, unnecessary video footage. High end audio deserves a place of it's own.

    (By the way, I just got my email from Mark.) I hope you get to read the full article too, Prisoner.

    Best Regards, -- Mike.
     
  6. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    I did read the article yesturday. Have been talking to Wilks by PM.
    The article doesn`t seem to really be fair. The major point of winning is a marketing view. But in the artilce they mention its noiser than DVD-A. So it might be exactly a VHS versus Beta issue. The better quality losses and the lower one wins on marketing and availability.
     
  7. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    After reading the article myself, Prisoner, I sortof get the same impression.

    Marketing (and posturing and corporate politics and copyright fear and just about every other non-audio-quality-related issue you can think of) seems to be what the article dwells on.

    Either format sounds better than red book, but your vhs/beta sentiment might very well be what will eventually rule the day here. Better is [bold]not[/bold] always necessarily the winner.

    It's pitiful we are sill discussing this after all this time. (It's not *our* fault). Will Big Business ever get their act(s) together on this one?

    -- See you next year, and we can pick up where we left off here! -- [​IMG]
     
  8. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    What do you mean by see you next year? Are you running away or are you just commenteding that every year there has to be atleast one format war.

    I remember the + vs - war, that ended with the sale of combo drives. I think that is a future that we may see more common. THere are SACD and DVD-A combo players out there as soon will be the Blu-ray and HD-DVD's I bet. Instead of format wars we might just live in a combo war. How may combo formats you can fit in one box, quality, I think they forgot about quality.
     
  9. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    (Noo, noo, noooo, I'm not going anywhere).

    It's just that a solid year ago, you or I or anyone else in here could mistake the posts of that period for any of the current posts - they are identical. Nothing has changed in a year.

    And based on the snail-like pace the major music and hardware industries have been inching (forward?), I could return here a year hence and it would be like I had never left.

    They say that technology forges ahead by leaps and bounds; that the rate of technology increases exponentially as time passes. Well, here's one case where I find technology stagnating and bogging itself down with it's own hype.

    Assuming I had the money to buy truly "Universal" machines every time a potentially promising or exciting new format came out, it would be self-defeating in most cases. A universal machine cannot do everything well. It cannot specialize in it's chosen task. It cannot give me the [bold]best[/bold] sound. It is a compromize. It's a matter of compatibility versus quality. And although Mass Public are music lovers, the true Audiophile Community who genuinely [bold]care[/bold] very much indeed about the quality of their music, are left in the lurch. Trust me, Joe Public favors compatibility over quality any day.

    Major Record Labels are paranoically fanatic about their back-catalogue copyrights, and this has led to the vast bulk of their holdings to be left moulding in storage vaults.

    Since the music labels have vested interests in their own consumer electronics' divisions, it seems unlikely we will ever see an end to this particular format war, and it hurts everyone. I don't want to have to purchase a whole new machine just to play a re-released, perhaps out-of-print, treasured album I have wanted to own for a long long time, just because the album's label chooses to release it's albums in the 'other' format. That's what I mean by self- defeating, and these wars only serve to keep the labels from releasing their back catalogue. Nobody can tell me that the retail market is currently flooded with sacd and dvd-a titles, because it is not, and it's not hard to figure out why, either.

    Universal machines are 'nice' for casual listening I suppose, but a single format, chosen because of it's flat-out, undeniable sonic superiority is what we truly need.

    So like I say, Prisoner, I'll "See Ya Next Year!" to pick up where we left off here. By that time I'll have thrown in the towel (already have) waiting for my treasured back-albums to appear in *any* new hi-res format, and Blu-Ray will, hopefully by then, have begun to sonically [bold]bury[/bold] the present formats into the ground and put the matter to rest once and for all.

     
  10. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    You actually think Blu-ray will solve it!! I would say that most likely it will confuse the situation and be out there with the three other Blue techs. I think there are four total Blue type discs out there. So think the format wars only get worse in the future.
     
  11. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    It might not solve the issue of which format will "reign", but I just bet it will show up DSD (SACD) for what it truly is - a sonic disgrace, massively phase-shifted by Sony to suit it's own proprietary leanings.

    And blu-ray's sheer data density will keep DVD-A (or whatever market share is left to it by then) on it's toes.

    You know..... it's only the perennial absense of treasured back-cataloge music by those musicians I absolutely [bold]adore[/bold] that keeps me harping on this accursed issue in the first place.

    New, quality recordings, such as those made by Mr. Neil Wilkes of Opus Studios (you may have heard of him [​IMG]), who *cares* about the quality of what he is creating, are going to be instrumental in keeping the 'faith' alive. They (these new pristine recordings) showcase just how good music *can* sound.

    Sure, I am probably premature in my guesstimates, but I believe blu-ray and the very-highest level of audio fidelity, could easily go hand-in-hand if they don't botch things up like they have with current fiasco.

    Offnote: Boys-oh-boys, was this originally a [bold]POLL[/bold] thread ??
     
  12. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    I think it was a Poll thread. thats why many a moon ago I ask you with your misterious mod powers to cut this conversation out and create a new thread with the topic. but it looks to be just between the two of us anyways so there might be no need.

    Wilks, I don`t know if I do know any one by that name :)

    I should PM wilks about which discs he has worked on, but unfortueately I only have a SACD player and can`t play DVD-A. But would be could to know the quality ones.
     
  13. ravensol

    ravensol Guest

    I am strongly opposed to the new laws.

    however, no judge could deny that if it is illegal to allow a consumer to make a back up copy - that the consumer will be entitled to a full refund from the copyright holder (not place of purchase), since it is the manufacturer (copyright holder/record companie etc) whom have provided us with faulty goods. - nearly all my disks have minor scratches caused from the lens mis reading and lifiting up causing minor scratches to the rom.

    When the cd was introduced (on tomorrows world in uk) a scratch resistant cd was demonstarted but record companies etc use cheaper and softer plastics. . .

    Heres a tip,

    Collect and categorise all your scratched disk and sue the record companies for the cost of the disks and your court costs.

    A civil suite for costs/damages doesn't cost much (if you do it yourself) and is free if on benefit...... Visit your local courthouse /CAB for information.

    Also where possible (in sonys case) sue them for the cost of your playstation - as this will have caused surface scratches..

     
  14. towell

    towell Member

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    This is bang out of order!!

    Do companies really relise how much money they would lose if people stopped copying there software, movies and music etc. it may seem stupid but how many people would pay £300+ for some software that turns out to be uneless!


    Just becuase people copyied the movie, doesn't mean to say they'd have went to see the movie at the cinema if they couldn't watch the copy.

    If the movie industry released quality movies and not cheap, rushed crap then people would pay good money to see it... they've got to understand... some people arn't in the position to pay to watch there movies... wether then want to or not... alot of us are jobless or working minumum wage under this goverment.

    A lot (if not the marjority of my fiends and associate's that I know only know how to use MSN messanger and download a mp3! meaning... all these people would have no use for a compomputer thefore would not purchase one!!...

    Who'd want to pay the £30 pound a month for the internet if the ISP is issing information that is goin to get your front door kicked in.

    Who wants a CD/DVD copier when this get's kicked into action.... ? are they going to stop stores selling the DVD stand alone recorders? there just as easy as using a computer?

    If mp3's, movies etc were to magically be whiped from the internet... i'd say so would 75% of the user's... I wouldn't want a 1.5mb line to view webpages? and download demo's!! :p

    I think the goverment's just devastated they cant TAX the Internet!!!!!

    The internet is only as big as it is today because of companies like Napster!! once the goverment relise this... the better!!
     
  15. mediaguru

    mediaguru Regular member

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  16. djscoop

    djscoop Active member

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    Totally opposed....signed petition. There's only 170 sigs though!!! C'mon, people!
     
  17. daemonzx6

    daemonzx6 Regular member

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    I just signed and I was only #172
    more people need to sign this
     
  18. mattF099

    mattF099 Member

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    Welcome to consertive america - its a bitch. I belive that the entire copyright protection situation is out of hand but those who are apposed are seen as the piraters that '"MUST BE STOPPED AT ALL COSTS!"scarcasm'. So its up to somebody who has never even opened kazaa or Azureus to judge someone who has and finacally devistate them. The recording artists and movie studios are actually suing more than creating because its more profatable. Its time for reform.
     
  19. Sophocles

    Sophocles Senior member

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    i signed on late too! It makes you wonder where the spirit of free thinking people haave gone. I think that conservativism is out of control and that we've allowed ourselves to placed in the hands of propagandizing fear mongers. So come on people of the world let's sign.
     
  20. mattF099

    mattF099 Member

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    well put
     

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