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Star Wars -- Looking for Editing Help

Discussion in 'Other video questions' started by triad3204, Mar 21, 2005.

  1. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    What I want to do is create a fan-edit of THE PHANTOM MENACE and ATTACK OF THE CLONES. I know it's been done before, and it will doubtless be done again. But I want to create, within the doctrines of fair use, a copy of these films that I can sit down and enjoy without cringing at Lucas' grab-bag of eccentricities.

    For the past month or so I've been doing a lot of research here at AfterDawn and other places, messing around with the toolsets, and generally seeing whether or not this is something I can accomplish.

    I've come to the conclusion that it's *not* something I can accomplish. Not at the quality level I'm looking for, and not without a lot of self-training and practice that, unfortunately, I simply don't have the time for right now.

    So what I'm looking for is an audio and video editor - or a team of editors - capable of ripping the DVD source, performing semi-complex edits on the source material, and then re-encoding the movie back to DVD with DVD-quality video and DD5.1 sound. What I want to be able to do is take my new, edited copy of the film, pop it in the DVD player, and pretend that the official version of the films (complete with toilet humor) never existed.

    To give you some idea of the type of thing I'm looking to accomplish, here's a typical example from my notes for ATTACK OF THE CLONES:

    ---
    00:15:07
    Okay, there's a shot here where we see several large vehicles heading towards Obi-Wan. We then cut to a reaction shot of Obi-Wan, then back to one of the other vehicles with an alien saying: "WHAAAT THE--?!" Then another reaction shot of Obi-Wan turning his head around to watch the vehicles fly past.
    Remove the first Obi-Wan reaction shot and the alien, leave the reaction shot where Obi-Wan turns his head around.
    The film then cuts to a long-shot of Obi-Wan from above. Leave that shot intact.
    The film then cuts to two more aliens saying stupid stuff. Cut those aliens and the next shot of Obi-Wan and the next shot of the aliens. Cut straight from the long-shot on Obi-Wan to Anakin in the flyer at approximately 00:15:19.
    ---

    Most of the cuts are of that nature. In terms of video, those cuts are generally pretty easy. In terms of audio, they're more complicated because many of them are interior cuts on sections of the film which have a John Williams score written across them. (It's the difficult nature of the audio edits that have specifically led me to post here.)

    And just to show the full range of what I'm looking to do, here's the most complicated edit from ATTACK OF THE CLONES:

    ---
    00:45:50
    This sequence is going to be a complicated edit, because essentially we're going to be trying to trim down the length of a repetitive dialogue sequence:

    Obi-Wan: Very impressive.
    Cloner: I hoped you would be pleased. [begin cut] Clones can think creatively. You will find them immensely superior to druids. [end cut] We take great pride in our combat training and education programs. This group was created about five years ago.
    Obi-Wan: You mentioned growth acceleration.
    Cloner: Oh, yes. It's necessary. Otherwise a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow. Now we can do it in half the time. [begin cut] They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host. [end cut]
    Obi-Wan: And who was the original host?
    Cloner: A bounty hunter called Jango Fett.
    Obi-Wan: And where is this bounty hunter now?
    Cloner: Oh, we keep him here. Apart from his pay, which is considerable, Fett demanded only one thing: An unaltered clone for himself. [begin cut] Curious, isn't it? [end cut]
    Obi-Wan: Unaltered?
    Cloner: Pure genetic duplication. No tampering with the structure to make it more docile and no growth acceleration.
    Obi-Wan: I would very much like to meet this Jango Fett.

    In order to make it work we'll need to do a much tighter visual cut, but it's not as simple as simply removing entire shots. The key is to keep all the visual information on the life-progress of a clone, while tightening the whole sequence up. (Although I think the entire shot of the troopers in full white-armor in the commissary can be removed; save that reveal for the marching drills in full uniform.)
    ---

    What's that, you say? I'm not looking for a creative collaborator, just somebody to do a messy technical job with little or no reward beyond the technical challenge of it?

    Well, you're half right. I understand that I'm looking for a technical expert to help me modify my DVDs under fair-use. As a result, I'm willing to pay that technical expert (or team of technical experts) $200 per film to help me with these edits.

    (What's that, you say? That's not the going rate for professional editing? You're absolutely right. And I'm not a Hollywood studio hiring for professional work. Sorry.)

    I also want to explicitly note that I am not interested in breaking copyright law with this project. Anyone working with me should own legitimate copies of the movies.

    If you're interested, please feel free to reply here or drop me a line in e-mail.

    Thanks,

    Justin Bacon
    triad3204@aol.com
     
  2. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    This is Not very Hard to do and without any Quality Loss at all...
    All you need is a Good Quality Native Mpeg editor and a DVD authoring program....

    With a Good Mpeg editor like "Womble Mpeg Video Wizard 2003" you can cut and Join and add effects and Transitions to your Vob/Mpeg-2 files without any quality Loss and when you have all of the Video arranged and cut the way you want you render the Files to Mpeg-2 ...

    Then you Load the Mpeg-2 file into a DVD authoring program and add your Menu"s and Chapters (You can even use Video Clips as Menu"s) and author the Movie to DVD...I suggest you use "DVDLab" for authoring these Files to DVD....

    well if you need any Help Just let me Know and I"ll do what I can to help you out....

    Cheers

    PS: You shouldn"t post your E-Mail here as you might start getting spammed to death by email Hunters...
     
  3. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    Sony Vegas 5. Period.
     
  4. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    It might be a Little Troublesome to do with Vegas because for one thing it will not read the Dolby AC3 audio in the Vob files..

    One way to try to get arround this is to demux the Vob into seperate Audio and Video files and decode the audio to another format like Wav and then try to import the M2V and Wav into Vegas seperately, but the Problem with this is Vegas will not read the M2V Video file because Vegas doesn"t support Video Only Mpeg-2 files (M2V,MPV) as source Files which is one thing of the Only things I don"t like about Vegas 5...

    Also Vegas will allways re-encode which can take quite a Long time if there are a Lot of effects and Transitions....
    Hopefully one day they will release a Native Mpeg editing Plugin for Vegas like MainConcept did for Adobe Premier and then Vegas would be More suited for Vob/Mpeg-2 editing accept even the Plugin for Premier doesn"t support Dolby AC3 as source in Mpeg files.....

    If "Triad3204" was working with Avi/Mov/Asf/Wmv Ect Files then Vegas would be Ideal for this sort of thing as it is my prefered editor and use it allmost daily.....

    Cheers
     
  5. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    Well, since my cash-on-the-barrelhead solution doesn't seem to be attracting any interest, let me ask you this: Is there any easy way to separate the music, dialogue, and sound effects from each other?

    I found editing the video to be a relatively simple task once I had some practice, but my attempts to create a smooth audio transition across the cuts I was making met with absolutely no success at all.

    If I could, at the very least, separate out the music I might be able to make some head-way.

    Justin Bacon
     
  6. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    When I was trying to make this work previously I was using DVD Decrypter to rip the VOB files off the DVDs, then I used DMPGDec to convert the VOBs to AVIs for editing while simultaneously ripping the soundtracks out as either WAVs or AC3 files. I was having problems with the WAV rips because I couldn't seem to keep the DD5.1 encoding, and I was having problems with the AC3 file because I couldn't find any decent editing platforms for them.

    Does Vegas include AC3 editing tools?

    Justin Bacon
     
  7. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    Hi, No Vegas doesn"t have any Support for Dolby AC3 editing at all..There are very Few Programs that will edit a File that has Dolby AC3 audio and still keep the Audio Dolby AC3 in the Edited file...

    The Program I mentioned earlier in this Thread "Womble Mpeg Video Wizard" does have Dolby AC3 editing Features but it is Mainly a Mpeg/Vob editor but will edit Dolby AC3 only and output in Dolby AC3 and Keep the 5.1...

    You actually should Have done your editing with the Mpeg Video Wizard because you could have saved time and Quality by not haveing to Convert your Files to AVI first and you could have kept the Files in the Same Format and Kept the Dolby 5.1 audio and done effects and Transitions....
    It actually has just as many or more Effects ,Transitions and Filters as Vegas 5 does and many of them are Better....

    As for seperateing the Music ,Dialog, Sound effects in an audio file, it isn"t possible if all the audio tracks are mixed together if the Dialog and effects ect are comeing out of seperate channels which might be the case with some dolby 5.1 files....

    You could Try doing an quick Audio Fade between Clips so it doesn"t sound as bad when Transitioning between Clips as Most editors have audio Fade features..

    I still suggest you try the Mpeg video wizard and go back to the Vob files as you will be able to retain all of the Quality and the Dolby 5.1 audio and have all of the effects and Transitions you would need..

    Good Luck...Cheers

     
  8. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    Minion, I've been working with MPEG Video Wizard, but I've run into a weird bug. When I attempt to export my work file a huge chunk missing from the resulting MPEG. It's not even like it's skipping a clip for some reason; it's taking the end of one clip and the beginning of the next, skipping over about 2 minutes of footage. I've exported it multiple times and checked the original project file: That footage is definitely in the project file. But the Export function repeatedly skips over the exact same section.

    Any thoughts?

    Justin Bacon
    triad3204@aol.com
     
  9. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    OK...In the Export settings under the "General" Tab make sure you select "WorkArea" NOT "All"....

    If you leave it at the Default setting (ALL) then it will export everything that is on the Timeline without remembering your Cuts and Markers...

    If you select the "WorkArea" setting then it will remember your Cuts and markers and should properly export your Project...Just make sure you do "Not" change any of the Bitrate or GOP or any of those export settings because then it will re-encode your Files....

    Well I hope this Helps....Cheers

    PS: You will sometimes Run into Wierd problems if your VOB files have not had all of the Subtitle and extra audio streams Removed before editing so if you still haveing problems and you have Not removed the subs and extra audio streams then you should...
     
  10. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    Quick description of my process:

    (1) Grabbed the VOB files from ATTACK OF THE CLONES using SmartRipper. Specifically I grabbed Title 5 (the movie itself), Angle 1 (to eliminate the alternate versions of the title scroll). I used Stream Processing to drop everything except the video [0xE0], 6ch English soundtrack [0x80], and the English subtitles [0x20, 0x21, 0x24].

    (2) I used the resulting VOB files as an input source in MPEG Video Wizard and created project files for each VOB file editing out the footage I wanted to remove from the film.

    (3) I then export the project file from MPEG Video Wizard to a new MPEG-2 file.

    The problem I'm having is with the VOB file VTS_05_01.VOB and the resulting project file.

    When I preview the project in MPEG Video Wizard, everything appears normal. But no matter what I do, when I export the file it skips from approximately 04:52 to the end of my very first edit (which is at 06:09 on my timeline).

    A few more points of reference:

    (1) I haven't had any problems with the other VOB and/or project files. They export just fine, AFAICT.

    (1) I've tried re-ripping the VOB file with both SmartRipper and DVD DeCrypter. The problem repeats.

    (2) I've tried redoing the project file completely from scratch (on the theory that one of my markers may have become corrupted). The problem still exists.

    (3) I've also discovered that if I move up and down the Input window while viewing the source VOB file, I get other weird artifacts: The soundtrack and video will unsynch. In some cases, the video seems to unsynch from the timeline -- so that if I go in reverse I see one set of images, and if I reverse direction it jumps to a later point in the movie.

    (4) I also took the ripped VOB file, ran it through DGMPGDEC, and then opened it up in VirtualDub through AviSynth. VirtualDub can read the VOB just fine, so it's not native to the VOB.

    (5) Then, just to double-check one more thing, I opened up a new project file, dumped the whole VOB into the project file, and then exported that. It exported just fine.

    What makes this particularly frustrating is that this VOB is, in fact, the one I made the fewest and simplest changes to: All I did was cut out a couple of shots. On the other VOB files I reordered scenes, pulled footage in from the deleted scenes, re-edited an entire sequence with a new soundtrack, and added effects. Those all work fine, but this one is giving me nothing but grief.

    Okay, just had another thought: I took the VOB, dumped it into a new project file, and then split the clip into three parts without actually editting anything out. Now the audio skips ahead about 4 minutes into the film and then the video catches up by skipping ahead about 60 seconds later.

    My best guess at this point is that even though I've only ripped Angle 1, there's still some marker that MPEG Video Wizard is picking up. As a result, MPEG Video Wizard gets confused about where it's pulling video and audio information from in the VOB file. But I don't know if there's anything I can do about it. Is there?

    Anybody have any suggestions?

    The only thing I haven't tried is re-ripping the VOB file without limiting it to a single angle and then laboriously going in and removing all those half second intercuts between the different title scrolls. (For those who don't know: For some reason, LucasFilms decided that instead of having the English title scroll and then the Spanish title scroll and then the French title scroll -- at least, I think those are the three languages -- they'd have a half second of the English title scroll, a half second of the Spanish title scroll, a half second of the French title scroll, and then back to the English title scroll. So if you play back the VOB without the IFO info, you get this constant intercutting.) But not only is that a lot of work, it also results in the audio being mistimed -- which would create a major headache.

    Justin Bacon
    triad3204@aol.com

     
  11. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    So do you select the "Workarea" option and not the "All" option in the Export settings??

    Also you Might want to try demuxing the Vob into seperate audio and Video streams and then load them to the Timeline seperately..When you Demux a VOB you remoove all of the VOB Header Information so if there is a Flag or a Time code error in the Vob that is causeing this problem then it should get Remooved By demuxing the VOB"S...

    I do all my Mpeg editing This way because I strictly only work with Seperate Streams (Because I Create my audio and Video Files in seperate Applications)...

    Cheers
     
  12. Theronrr

    Theronrr Member

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    triad3204

    Try the following make one VOB from DVD Decrypter by stoping the breaking at 1Gig. This is found in the tools -- Settings -- IFO Mode (Tab) -- File Splitting = None. I was very frustrated by this. That MPEG Video Wizard appears to have a bug in it when trying to combine multiple VOB files with AC3 audio into one MPEG file. I was able to overwrite the old MPEG file and use my previous edits in Nero without any changes. (Very Blessed!) Hope this helps!
     
  13. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    I was able to eventually work around my previous problem by using MPEG Video Wizard to export an MPG (since it could do that if I didn't make any edits to the file at all). That didn't quite work, because, while the new MPG worked just fine in all my other apps, MPEG Video Wizard was now reading the MPG (the MPG it created!) as being shorter than it actually was, so it was cutting off the end of that section of the movie.

    So I went back in and tagged the end of the MPG in from the original VOB (since MPEG Video Wizard could read that part of the file just fine), allowing me to (finally!) export an MPG that worked.

    But now I've run into another problem: Having gotten my video edits done for the whole movie, I'm now going through with the following process:

    (1) Taking the MPG and demuxing the AC3.

    (2) Usine HeadAC3e to split the AC3 into five WAV files, one for each channel.

    (3) Using SoundForge to edit the sound files.

    (4) Recombining the five edited WAV files into a new AC3 file with DD5.1 encoding.

    I'm then going to use the MPG and new AC3 files to author the new DVD.

    Here's the problem: I've discovered that MPEG Video Wizard won't actually export an MPG with AC3 (or export the AC3 separately) if you've used any of MPEG Video Wizard's effects. I didn't notice this immediately because I didn't use any of MPEG Video Wizard's effects in the first file, but I used them extensively in the others.

    So am I basically screwed here? Is this just a limitation with the demo version of the program? Can anyone think of another option, short of saying "fusk it" and starting over from scratch with a different program? (And, if so, what program?)

    The most important thing for me is not necessarily to have MPEG Video Wizard export an AC3 file for me. I just need MPEG Video Wizard to export a 5.1 surround sound file that I can convert to WAV.

    Justin Bacon
     
  14. triad3204

    triad3204 Member

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    For anyone's future reference, here's how I worked around this problem:

    (1) Exported a non-AC3 MPEG with my video effects.
    (2) Copied my MPEG Video Wizard work files.
    (3) In the new copies, right-clicked on each effect, went to the Audio options and selected "cut half-way through".
    (4) MPEG Video Wizard would now export an MPEG with AC3 encoding.

    Then demux the non-AC3 audio and the AC3 audio. Use HeadAC3e to split the AC3 audio into mono-WAVs, convert the non-AC3 audio into a WAV, and use the non-AC3 WAV to edit in the transition audio.

    This takes some finessing. But I've generally been able to achieve fairly smooth transitions using this method. It's not ideal, but as long as you're not going effects-crazy it should give you good results.

    In a couple of cases even muting the audio in the effects didn't have the desired effect. In those situations I was forced to split the shots just before and after the effect and then delete the effect. (Don't clear the resulting gap.) You can't simply remove the effect because this will change the length of your video and force you to re-synch your audio (which is a helluvalot more work than its worth).
     
  15. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    I was Just in contact with "Womble Tech support" and was asking about the problem with Looseing the Dolby AC3 audio as soon as you add any effects or Transitions and they said the problem is with them not haveing a Liscence to Create Dolby AC3 from Dolby Labs But they also said that they Just Just resieved a Liscence and the Next version will Have Dolby AC3 encodeing support....
     
  16. imax70man

    imax70man Member

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    minion - You are a saint providing us with the MPEG Video Wizard! I have tried at least 20 programs in the last few weeks trying to do what this does and they all fail. This is the first one that does what we all want to do. However, for certain applications I want to intercut 16x9 ac3 with non-16x9 2.0 and one ends up being stretched in some direction and renders the ac3 option invalid. Do you know of any way to make 4:3 letterbox into 16x9 and encode the 2.0 to ac3 at the same time. What I want is to zoom in on the 4:3 letterbox image and then "squeeze" it into 16x9 format. AND encode the ac3. Any ideas. Thanks again for the hook-up on the program.

    triad3204 - What a great plan. Be rid of Jar-Jar and toilet humor, but what scenes are you excising from Ep.II? Me, I'm trying to make a definitive cut of CE3K combining the Special Edition with the Theatrical edition. The ending the studio made Spielberg shoot is great, I don't know why he doesn't like it and pulled it from the DVD edition. These guys and their films...why don't they consult us before editorial decisions. Hee hee.

     
  17. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    Hi, what happens when you mix 4:3 and 16:9 Video when editing in Womble it has to select an aspect ratio so it probably uses the aspect ratio of the First file for Both files after joining together....

    If you want both parts to look exactly the same(either 4:3 fullscreen or 16:9 widescreen) you will have to re-encode one of the Parts and resize the Way the Video looks ,You might have to do some cropping and adding Borders depending on the Video....

    If you use Tmpgenc to encode just the Video and use the "Clip Frame" and the "video arrange Method" settings in the "Advanced" tab you should be able to get the aspect ratio to look either 4:3 or 16:9..It would Probably be easier to get 16:9 video to look 4:3 that gettings 4:3 video to look 16:9....

    Cheers

    PS: I talked to some of the Poeple at Womble and they said that they will have full AC3 support in the Next version of "Mpeg Video Wizard" ..They said that they just got a Lisence from Dolby Labs to use the AC3 encodeing Technology and Format......
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2005
  18. imax70man

    imax70man Member

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    Minion: I seemed to have solved my video solutions in Premiere and zoomed in on the 4:3 image and output it as 16:9 which makes it intercut with the original 16:9 footage perfectly. However, even if I output the avi with no audio, as soon as I import anything other than VOB into MPEG Wizard, it cancels out my ac3 output option. I figure their ac3 encoder will fix this, but one can only hope. I am SO CLOSE to finally doing this. Did Womble give any idea when their next version would be out? Also, I actually tried BeSweet and turned the stereo audio into an encoded 5.1 ac3 file, and MPEG Wizard didn't like that either. It seems anything outside of VOB files and it cancels out the ac3 out option.
     
  19. Minion

    Minion Senior member

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    Just use the Demultiplexor to demux the VOB file into seperate audio and Video files and then load the Demuxed audio and the new Mpeg-2 file into the Timeline, That way you will keep the AC3 audio....
    Go to the "Tools" menu and you will find the Demultiplexor...

    They didn"t give me any time period on when the new version of Mpeg video Wizard will be out but hopefully soon...

    Cheers
     
  20. imax70man

    imax70man Member

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    Minion - I feel I am so very close to cracking this process, especially since I can get exactly what I want on video. It's just the ac3 business that is keeping me from sucess. I tried the demultiplexor, I tried several different ac3 encoder programs: Cilers ac3 Tool, rejig, BeSweet, etc. and nothing works. I mean, the resulting file is .ac3 but MPEG Wizard doesn't like it.

    It seems unless the original file is specifically 5.1 ac3, the Wizard doesn't allow ac3 output. Strange, even after demuxing and importing JUST the .mpv video file into the Wizard timeline, ac3 output is not possible. I mean, how is this affecting the audio output by just adding a .mpv file? It's very strange.
     

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