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TDK Media is now bad news

Discussion in 'DVD±R media' started by dbros9, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. dbros9

    dbros9 Member

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    TDK media is now manufactured by CMC and you can sure tell the diference. Many coasters. The only thing they are good for is making copies of stuff, not any original burns.
    I use Convertx for most DVD burns and the TDK's error out everytime.
    Cheap is not always good TDK...
     
  2. onya

    onya Guest

    I personally used TDK discs for all my backup and data needs, but since have been shown the error of my ways. TDK's have almost never given me grief, but I now adopt the advise of using Verbatims. Sure, they are a little more pricey but worth the expense. Here's a pic from DVD Identifier that shows the current manufacturer of TDK's, at least here in Australia.

    [​IMG]

    These discs were purchased less than a month ago. (spindle of 50)
     
  3. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    TDK has been manufactured by CMC for many years. Onya has used them without problem for a long time, but somehow some people have convinced him that is an "error" and he is now using Verbatim. CMC makes Verbatim also, by the way; but who cares about facts or logic?

    If you are having different results with TDK media, it could be due to the stamper being used which, along with perhaps different groove geometry, will definitely have a different MID code. Some TDK media use the TDK stampers such as TTH02 Onya shows. Other TDK media may use the CMC MAG MID code that may not be as well supported as the TTH codes.
     
  4. res2cue

    res2cue Guest

    TDK are the only disc I can say I have had problems with... so far... Anyways they would play in some players fine and other they would skip, freeze, jump all over the place making them unwatchable. Change brands, same procedure.. no problem.
     
  5. JVC

    JVC Active member

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    I used a 25 pk. of TDKs, a couple off years ago. They burned fine and looked good, the first time I watched them. 3-4 months down the road, I tried to watch a movie burned on them, and it pixellated and froze. The sound stopped and stuttered. I went through and checked all the movies, I burned on TDKs, and they all acted the same way. I had to reburn every one of the movies, onto better media. Got kinda expensive!

    Something similar happened with Memorex. Only with a 5 pk. This is why I try to steer people away from Memorex, TDK, Khypermedia, and store brands. Joe Ryan has been saying for awhile that CMC makes Verbatim. I've never seen a Verbatim code out as CMC. I sent Verbatim (USA) an email, asking if CMC made Verbatim dvds. They basically said in their response, that they didn't. I posted their response, so everyone could see it, for themselves. I sent Verbatim (Asia) an email, but they never responded........ CMC may have made them at one time, and Verbatim quit using them? I don't know. I just know what Verbatim, themselves told me.

    It's just funny to me how you can use a known CMC disc (Memorex,TDK, etc.), and get errors. Then you use a good brand (Taiyos, Sonys, etc.), and you don't get the errors anymore. (But Memorex and TDK are good media, according to some) :eek:) As Joe says,"but who cares about facts or logic?"
     
  6. Mr_Pink

    Mr_Pink Regular member

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    Yeah, this isn't news.

    Back two or three years ago, I made the mistake of buyng TDK media because it was on sale--it was terrible. They burned fine but playback was terrible. Like others have said, it was pixelated, skipped and froze.

    Since then, I've learned only to stick with Verbs and TY.
     
  7. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The quality of the recording and its durability is determined by:
    1) the quality of the medium
    2) the quality of the drive
    3) the compatibility of the medium and drive
    4) the software settings and the correct file structure of the data
    5) the quality of the playback unit
    6) the compatibility of the playback unit
    7) the storage and handling of the recorded disc

    If #3 is a problem, then it is not possible to determine #1 unless pre-testing is done to determine mechanical and physical properties. Many people immediately blame poor playback on #1 and do not consider the possibility of #3 (which in most cases when complainers do mention drive and firmware version, is the real cause). Switching brands changes #1, #3, and #6 (because groove geometry changes with a different stamper/MID code). If the new brand works, that is not "proof" that #1 was the cause unless one investigates and rules out both #3 and #6. Some people have very good results with TDK. Some people have very poor results. The two groups have different drives. A disc with poor jitter due to poor incompatibility with the drive's write strategy will often work well intially and then become unplayable after a relatively short time. This can also happen to a disc with unstable dye, but the test data will produce different readings for analysts to determine which was the more likely cause.

    CMC manufactures MCC/MKK DVD+/-R media as well as many CD-R media using Mitsubishi's dyes and their stampers in most cases. The MID codes identify the stampers, not the place of manufacture or the production line. (That information is in the production code if you know how to translate them.) The third set of numbers is the stamper cavity ID.
     
  8. born2ride

    born2ride Regular member

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    JoeRyan
    if cmc makes all this media why not create them equal? how much extra cost is in a good quality disc?
     
  9. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    They may all BE equal, as far as quality goes! And still people will have different results because the MID codes are different. If a drive does not recognize the MID code and uses just a default laser write strategy, the results may be unpredictable. It all depends on how well a drive is tuned to a particular MID code...and how consistent the product is over time to the settings of that MID code.

    In reality, the discs from CMC do differ for a number of reasons:
    1) dyes Verbatim uses Mitsubishi dye. TDK uses its own dye. Fuji offers Oxonol dye that is extremely stable but requires slightly more laser power. There are other dye manufacturers who offer other dye formulations at varying prices and with varying properties that work well with some but perhaps not all pumping, filtering, piping, and spin coating systems. TDK or HP, for example, may not be allowed to use Mitsubishi dyes or maybe Mitsubishi would charge them exorbitant fees for that dye. TDK developed its own dye as did Fuji.
    2) varying production lines CMC has a variety of production lines with different equipment, a not uncommon situation. Certain systems work better with certain materials than others, and matching them all while keeping the factory running is not always easy.
    3) different stampers The stamper has a particular MID number assigned to it as well as a cavity number and ID number. They all vary slightly from each other depending on mold cycle times and polycarbonate material used. In a perfect world, every stamper would be exactly like the next, but they do vary intentionally and unintentionally. Tolerances are extremely tight. (Recording a single pit on the outside edge of a disc at 16X is approximately as easy as picking up a human hair from the highway while leaning out the door of a car traveling 120 miles an hour. Try that on a lazy Saturday afternoon.)

    High speed media manufacturing will produce the best quality disc when a factory is running at 90% capacity with 10% allowed for maintenance, assuming all quality control processes are aligned and in working order. CMC, like any factory, would like to run just one type of dye, one type of polycarbonate, one type of sputter target, and one type of cleaning agent on lines of identical equipment. Their customer base does not allow that for one reason or another. In addition to those problems are the political/marketing ones where some drives may intentionally be set for poorer performance for non-Japanese media than for Japanese media. (In one case a Taiwanese media supplier was told his 8X DVD+R media had failed qualification at a Japanese drive supplier during testing. The media factory informed the drive people that they had not submitted samples yet. The answer was, "Oh. Sorry. Then you will fail once we get the samples." How can a such as disc, even if "perfect," work well in such a drive? The situation is a lot more complex than "good guy discs" and "bad guy discs."
     
  10. creaky

    creaky Moderator Staff Member

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    cheers for the great info Joe, as always.
    (Maybe) you can see why some of us find it so much cheaper and hassle-free to use the discs we use, ie the proverbial Verbatim & Taiyo Yuden. The time I got 'burnt' the worst by literally 100s of previously intact discs which soon became corrupt/uncopyable/unwatchable and the time alone in recopying from originals (never mind the cost of new discs and much time wasted redoing the copies), was soul destroying enough for me to move to Verbs & Taiyo with a vengeance, buying up probably more stock than i'll ever get chance to use up. But it's worth it to not have to re-rip/or re-encode 100's of discs ever again. Add to that the fact that i now use DVD Rebuilder heavily (which can take my PC's 3 to 5 hours just to re-encode) for a lot of episodic discs, and movies that are too 'video-rich' for quick & easy programs such as DVD Shrink et al, and there's no way on earth i would chance my time, money and sanity on discs that 'might' work. I no longer use only Verbs & TY anymore, I also use Maxell discs like they're going out of fashion (only RICOHJPNR03, i find them to be bulletproof and i rate them as highly as my Verbs & TY).
     
  11. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    Maxell and Ricoh are manufactured by Ritek. As consolidation reduces the number of variables (CMC manufacturing Verbatim, HP, Imation, Memorex, Philips, some Sony, TDK, and others; Optiarc manufacturing Sony and NEC drives; PLDS manufacturing Lite-On, HP, Memorex, Philips, BenQ, and Plextor drive, among others), consumers are going to find things better for them--as long as they keep buying new drives. (Firmware updates are going out of fashion.) Taiwanese media and drive manufacturers are working more closely together to break the Japanese "monopoly" that has put an advantage for made-in-Japan discs.

    There is trouble in the horizon, though. Maxell is outsourcing its discs from Ritek these days. TY would probably love to come out with a double layer disc, but its reputation would be shattered because there is no MID support for such discs. They won't work in any DL drives, and the quick reaction of many people would be, "TY sucks! Their discs don't work. What happened?" The best opportunity for TY is to wait until a whole new revolution in drives suddenly appears, then jump in with 8X DL media manufactured with the less expensive inverse stack method. The argument would be that only the newest drives will record these discs--buy one. (Such a "revolution" is in the works, but it might not make the big bang the DVD Forum would like.) Right now TY is saddled with the high costs of manufacturing in Japan that forces them to bypass middle men (retailers) to be competitive; and they are too late in the DL market to provide a higher margin disc that works. It's not an enviable position for a high cost, high quality manufacturer to be in.

    Verbatim is in a better position. They outsource their discs but provide the dyes and technology. DL media could pose a problem because Ritek is out producing them, I believe, and learning very fast. Ritek has already moved to inverse stack with 8X DL media; but I don't know if Verbatim has followed. If they have not, the lucrative DL market may begin to slip away as lower cost/higher yield IS DL media grow in popularity and drive support. Everyone was looking to blue laser media to get them out of this mess, and blue laser recording has been greeted by a big yawn. You can't record HD video yet. And what's the point of storing 25GB of anything on a disc with the life span of a grocery list?

     
  12. dbros9

    dbros9 Member

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    I bought a 60 pack of Playo DVD's for basically $4 at Staples - 26 - with 22 rebate. (had to try em for that price)
    they are made my Mitsubishi - anyone know the quality of Mitsubishi media
     
  13. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    Mitsubishi is the owner of Verbatim. Mitsubishi-owned stampers generally have the manufacturer's ID of MCC or MKK. That does not mean that the Playo DVDs are the same quality as Verbatim media; but they might be, or they might be factory seconds.
     
  14. dbros9

    dbros9 Member

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    The identifier is MCC
     
  15. born2ride

    born2ride Regular member

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    JoeRyan, I have HP Invent DVD-R 16x. I have burned them in three different burners and all have had the same results -- bad playback. This is the only CMC that I've found to do this. I have burned other CMCs and they are still working like a champ. How do we test the compatibility of the medium and the drive? Obviously, all CMCs aren't created equal.
     
  16. 300bowler

    300bowler Regular member

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    i used 3-100 packs of TDK -R's and they were manufactured by TDK and coded out like Onya's pic, and i had about 3 coasters out of those 3 packs, and they all played great, i am starting to back those up on TYs now, and have come across a couple that had read errors but most of them up til now i have been able to rip, i didn't get any that were coded out as CMC, i think because the + format are the ones that are CMC produced.

    Cheers Creaky, that couldn't have been said(written) any better.

    also Cheers to Joe,
    i am glad you are a member to AD as i and others learn a lot about media from you.
     
  17. monomach

    monomach Member

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    I have to wonder whether people:
    a) post on this site about CMC experiences that are years old
    b) have crappy burners
    c) store discs improperly

    Don't get me wrong, I generally use Verbatims. However, when I've run out and they're not on sale over the past two years or so, I've had no problems using CMC -R media under the nameplates of Memorex or Imation. Zero coasters out of 300+ backups, good playback, not a single case of pixellation/sound errors in even the backups that are a full two years old.

    I've had Memorex problems recently- since all of the CMC Memorex has dried up and been replaced with RITEKF1. RITEKF1 seems to be mildly janky. I do get at least a couple of coasters with those in each 50pc cakebox, but no playback problems yet. As a result, I've quit buying Memorex and continued buying Imation because they're still CMC...And that's a good thing.

    As I said before, though...Verbatim all the way.
     
  18. JVC

    JVC Active member

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    It's very good that y'all are using Memorex and other CMC discs!
    Keep up the good work! Please! :eek:)
    That means there will be more of the good stuff, for the rest of us!
     
  19. Shemyaza

    Shemyaza Member

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    I've had a bunch of TDK's by CMC that seemed to burned fine, but played back either badly or not at all. But I've had numerous problem of cyclic redundancy errors of making additional copies off of those burned discs. Previously the TDKs that I bought were Ritek branded and I've gad no problems with those.
     
  20. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    RitekF1, I believe, uses Fuji dye. This may be why the discs seem "mildly janky"--Fuji is Oxonol dye requiring higher power but very stable over time. Not all drives will be set properly for the higher power requirements, but recording at a slower speed may help.

    Generally, if a drive does work well with a particular MID code, it should continue to work well until the drive's power diode begins to lose power as it ages. If the aging is not an issue, then products with the same MID code that work inconsistently in batches (not from disc to disc because that could be a function of changing default values) are an indication of inconistent production--and that is a quality parameter. Judging from all the complaints and praises discussed in this forum, it is a far from common occurrence that batch inconsistency is a problem. It may be more common than it appears, but the only way to tell is when people identify the MID that is involved.
     

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