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The Inducing Infringement of Copyright Act

Discussion in 'Safety valve' started by siber, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. siber

    siber Regular member

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    This bill ('The IICA') was made public on wednesday, June 23. It supposedly has 'wide support' already in the US Senate. Patrick Leahy and Orrin Hatch are strong advocates of it. The RIAA loves it. It would essentially make all P2P networks illegal. It would make them legally liable 'as they induce and encourage copyright infringement'. Senator Orrin Hatch compares the P2P developers with the 'Child Catcher' in the movie 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang' who lured children with promises of 'free lollipops'. Isn't nice to know our senators are comparing us to children who are getting conned with free lollipops? They are just out to protect us from evil men...
     
  2. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    Goddamit I dunnno how the Americans let the DCMA pass let alone all this crap that followed it :p ... ya ya money money money (and lack if an informed population) .... but c'mon, the lack-of-informed-population thing can only go for so long .... gotta make a big deal about it ... hit the news for a week straight and you'll have yourself enough signitures to counter it -- and if it doesnt counter than we know where deomocracy has gone :(
     
  3. Nephilim

    Nephilim Moderator Staff Member

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    Congress is so far removed from the common man's needs it's truly a tragedy.

    Congress should print up an "a la carte" menu of who and how much it takes to get special interest legislation passed.
     
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm so not surprised lol
     
  5. siber

    siber Regular member

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    Praetor, I have lived in the US now for over 20 years and I can only say that public apathy is gradually increasing.

    When I am in any type of social setting with a number of people, it is very unusual to hear a discussion about legal issues, policy, diplomacy, broad social issues. People seem to avoid those matters as if they were forbidden by law. Golf, football, any other 'sport of the moment' and stocks are almost the only subjects of conversation for the men, children and marital issues probably top the women's list.

    I would also be very surprised if the traditional media will even mention this new attempt at legislating how Americans are supposed to remain protected of themselves...
     
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    I cant blame them. You vote some dude in, you should be able to petition him out (i.e., not when (s)he calls an election but whenever the people decide they dont like him/her) -- but you dont see that happening anytime soon.

    I dont mean for this to be a negative statement about people but (unfortunately) it's the truth (at least in the earlier years), but in universities and such the same things are true: everybody is out partying and having a good time rather than working/studying and discussions typically revolve around stuff people do (i.e., partying) so it never drifts over to the more serious issues at hand. I cant speak for the ladies (for seemingly obvious reasons) but after elementary and highschool full of that "sport of the moment" crap everywhere, one would think that people would settle down and talk about some more serious matters once a month or something but alas no :(
     
  7. siber

    siber Regular member

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    When special interests spend $500 million to be able to handpick the guy they want for President, when the electoral system is put together in such a way that in most states your vote doesn't really count, it may be that public apathy is just a reflection of public impotence.

    When it is obvious that you, as an individual, must recognize that there isn't a thing you can do to influence the process, maybe you just hope for the best and you try not to think about the whole thing anymore. Like most Americans you just go to church and pray.
     
  8. connectr

    connectr Member

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    Hmmm, considering the Electoral College and the lack of true voter clarity on the usefulness f voting, why are we surprised?
    Gee isn't it interesting that the "most copied" movie is the "Passion". This from a country that wears its religion on its sleeve and tells the rest of the world that their way is the ?moral? way. Maybe folk go to church and prey. And implement forced birth control with a minimum IQ before breeding is allowed.
    DMCA is only the tip of the iceberg. The entire US copyright law needs to be revised. It is ludicrous, but a fact that a song title?s copyright essentially will never expire now.
     
  9. roeod4

    roeod4 Regular member

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    Ok, I know I am going to be in the minority here and that I am going to get a lot of flack for my opinion on this, but my feeling is...big deal. I don't use any of the P2P networks, I don't download movies or music from sites like that, so I don't really have a problem with them being shut down. What I think a lot of people overlook in situations like this is the little guy that gets screwed from the downloading of movies and music. I know everyone thinks that these musicians, record companies, studios, and movie stars have too much money already and I agree, but they aren't the people I think about when it comes to this issue. I think more of the small business owners, the paper pushers, the laborers that are involved in those industries. When you download music and movies illegally, you are stealing from those people too. Not their money but their jobs.
    How would you feel if one day you found yourself unemployed because all the 11-15 year olds in the world quit buying cds or dvds? That is what happens, people download music off the net and the record companies lose money, they have to make profit, so they start to let people go. If they can't afford the 5 janitors they have then some of them will have to leave. Then we have a higher unemployment rate and the economy starts to go down hill. Then we have inflation and everything starts to cost more. Which means less money in your pocket and mine. In most economies you have to spend money for the economy to stay in good shape.
    Then you have the small mom and pop places that rent movies or sell music, what happens to them? They end up going out of business because they have bills that can't get paid. Once again, higher unemployment = economy = inflation = everything costs you more. I could give a crap if the guys from Metallica can get the new car they want or not, but I do care that pirating material movies, music, and games puts the little guy out on his ass. It sounds, for the most part, that everyone here is for the little guy and that is a good thing, because we are all the little guy. However, the major corporations contribute a huge amount to our economy and without them most of us would be in real trouble. Have you ever heard that you have to spend money to make money? Well guess what, its true. If you don't go out and spend money in our economy then you don't get it back. Because if you don't spend then the other guys don't have any to spend and you don't get any back because everyone is holding onto all their pennies. This just happened here in the US and we are just starting to recover.
    Don't get me wrong, if you already own the material in question (movies, games, music, etc.) I don't have a problem with making back-ups to save what is yours already. Obviously or I would not be here. I really don't have too much of a problem with someone sharing a file or 2 with a close friend. The P2P sites are a different story, that is mass distribution on a global level and I don't know of anyone who has a couple million close friends.
    I realize this is not a popular opinion, and if I am wrong in my interpretation of this bill let me know, but I feel that some people out there are missing the bigger picture.

    Ok, I'm done, let the flames commence!
     
  10. connectr

    connectr Member

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    Hmmm...
    I wonder if you plan to use VoIP in the near future. The lowest cost program (free)uses P2P technology for voice.
    'course maybe you prefer the POTS system?!?
     
  11. siber

    siber Regular member

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    I suggest you read the bill in question. Points well taken, there are always 2 sides to every story. Unfortunately the 'side' you defend is probably not really thinking of the interests of 'the little guys' the way you do.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    I hear ya! Point(s) well taken however consider this: "Afterdawn is implementing a new system whereby all new posts will be entered into a queue where it will been screened for content and taste after which, upon approval, the post will proceed as per normal" -- you wouldnt like that now would ya? Of course that theoretical policy would be introduced to combat the piracy/all-caps/offtopic/mis-posts that happen here.

    Just like the P2P thing -- perhaps its a good core idea (i.e., eliminate piracy/"bad"-posts) but their implementation really really is ineffective.

    :)
     
  13. roeod4

    roeod4 Regular member

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    I have not taken a side and I am not defending anyone. I am only trying the show another view. At this point I have no opinion on this because it does not affect me. I would like to have an opinion, but I can't. Since I cannot read the bill itself and all I can find are articles about the bill.

    I can not find the bill listed on any of the senate (www.senate.gov) or congress (www.congress.gov) websites. They have not posted a copy of the bill on any of the Senators websites that I can find. The Library of Congress (www.loc.gov) does not have the bill yet.

    The bill is actually listed as "S.2560" it was just entered into senate judiciary committee on 6-22-04. The bill is to amend chapter 5 of title 17, United States Code, relating to inducement of copyright infringement, and for other purposes.
    Sponsor: Sen. Hatch
    Cosponsor: Sen. Boxer(CA), Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Leahy (VT), Sen. Daschle (SD), Sen. Grahm (SC)
    Last major action: 6-22-04 referred to Senate Committee. Status: read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

    I was wondering were you guys read the bill.
    Please send me a link to this bill so I can read it.

    Also, not point fingers here but people are talking about complacency and downing the government for different reasons, but what are you doing to change things? What are you doing to change the outcome of this bill? Have you contacted your senators or congressman? Do you know who your senators and congressman are?
     
  14. siber

    siber Regular member

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    roeod4,

    No, I don't think anybody here has taken any action. Probably isn't planning on anything concrete either. This is a site where we just find ourselves comfortable enough to rant and rave a bit. Don't laugh though, that is more than what the majority of people at this point is doing. Most don't even know or care what is going on. The NBA draft, Euro 2004 and Wimbledon are so much more important.

    I would love to say that writing to your congressman or senator is an option. Unfortunately I am very pessimistic about that. I really don't know what the average inhabitant of this planet can do to influence the process.

    I also suspect awareness of this is, subconsciously, the reason why everybody has become so passive. The impotence the average citizen in the West experiences is just as confining as the impotence people under a dictatorship must experience. Better economics, more of a semblance of personal freedom, definitely more fun but with the same sense of lack of control.

    By concentrating on entertainment issues, the stock market, raising children, religion, most people take a look around every so often and tell themselves that things aren't too bad yet and hope that the next day will be no worse.

    A bit pessimistic maybe...but I needed to 'rant and rave' a bit before putting all my bills in the mail, walking my dogs and triple-locking my door for the night. Goodnight, everybody!
     
  15. roeod4

    roeod4 Regular member

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    Wow, sorry to hear that, but you did prove my point. I guess you have not read the bill either have you? I am glad you brought the topic up, now I can read the bill and decide which side I agree with.
     
  16. siber

    siber Regular member

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    roeod4, the way you speak about reading this bill makes me think that you haven't read any bills of any kind yet. You don't READ a bill. When you do find it, you'll know what I mean.
     
  17. siber

    siber Regular member

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    You can find the bill at this website:http://www.corante.com/copyfight/archives/004408.html
     
  18. djboogie

    djboogie Regular member

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    All I can say is,......America, land of the free...........as long as the fat cats that have ripped off everyone for years, are allowed to continue doing so
    it all sucks!

    Dont you think also its amazing, that for months, even years, the record companies have said "dont download music, dont file share, its inferior quality" blah blah
    so what do they do? they launch their own!! and charge $1 a song, !
    no overheads, no manufacturing costs.
    When are the lazy arseheads in the music industry gonna stop mass producing garbage, and start to encourage artists go actually go on tour and make a damn living!
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]Is it true Michael Jackson speaks Marklar?[/small]
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2004
  19. roeod4

    roeod4 Regular member

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    You don't read bills? What do you do with them? All of the bills I have ever looked at contain words and have a basic sentence structure. I always thought that that was reading, I guess I was wrong.

    As far as that link you posted goes, that is only a small portion of the bill and even the 2 guys that are writing on that page state that they would like to see the rest of the bill. From what I can see in that small bit of the bill, my thoughts are still the same...big deal.
    To start with, the bill does not say that it will make P2P networks or software illegal. It states that people can be held liable for the illegal activity that occurs on such a site or with the software. At no point has anyone stated that they are banning P2P networks or forcing them out of business. From what I see is that they are trying to hold the people who have the site or distribute the software accountable for the illegal activity that occurs on the site. It is like being a bar tender and serving drinks to a person who is already drunk. If they get in a wreck and kill someone on the way home, you as the bar tender are held liable for serving someone who was already beyond his limit. So really it is not making anything else illegal, it is just adding parties that can be held accountable.
    I am not sure what you read, but with that small bit, how can you form a full opinion. Unless you are just willing to read others opinions on the topic and take their view too.
     
  20. siber

    siber Regular member

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    You are so right, you definitely are. Yes, it is only part of the bill, it is an amendment to a previous bill. You could also say that it is just a proposal at this time. Chances are, it will be amended further. That single page, nevertheless, represents the thrust of the proposal.

    As you are indeed, I should have known, you would take issue with the expression of 'READING' a bill.

    The comparison with the Bartender and the Drunk is poorly chosen. But to use the same exemple, this bill could make ANY bartender liable if he served a drink to ANY customer, drunk or not, having an accident or not. There is a possibility that such a law would make bartenders slightly uncomfortable.
     

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