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The Official PC building thread - 4th Edition

Discussion in 'Building a new PC' started by ddp, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. Estuansis

    Estuansis Regular member

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    I play particularly intense games and demand high framerates. I need every ounce of single threaded CPU power I can get. A Bulldozer maybe perfectly fine, I admit, but it just isn't enough. I am having doubts that the X6 will even be enough, but am gambling on several factors. I am certainly interested in more cores, but I need extra per-clock performance AND better OCing to make it powerful enough for heavy duty video cards. I plan on dual 6970s and my current chip is going to be a bit of a bottleneck. Lower per-clock performance is a step backwards in this case.

    As far as gaming with a mouse goes, I prefer it by far. Some games are obviously made for joysticks and gamepads which is why I have a rather beefy flight stick and an Xbox 360 controller. Most games nowadays have 360 pad support and the 360 pad is one of the best gamepads ever made. I also highly enjoy a number of detailed flight sims including IL2 Sturmovik, LOMAC, and the DCS series. Sadly my joystick is not a full flight console, so a large number of the more detailed controls are on the keyboard.

    A mouse itself is miles more precise in FPS games and RTS games than a joypad. Console FPS games normally have aim assist which is usually left out or turned off by default in the PC version. Play CoD or Battlefield with a joypad on PC and you get wasted all day. The accuracy, sensitivity, and response time are all far better.

    Preferences are a matter of opinion though and I respect your aversion to mouse gaming. Some people just don't like it. I, however, see it as a staple of hardcore PC gaming and a great divider between casual and hardcore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
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  3. Mr-Movies

    Mr-Movies Active member

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    You're not going to sell me on mouse controllers and I've heard the precision nonsense before. It's funny how well gamepads and joysticks worked before someone decided mice were better, at least for them I guess. And how many mice are used with game consoles, NONE! So why can't we still use the better controllers on PC games? It just doesn't make sense.

    It isn't a divider of hardcore to casual either I was hardcore gamer before you were born and did so up until someone decided mice controllers were the ONLY way to go. To me if that is what you like so be it, but why not keep the other controllers in the games too like they use to do. Drove me out of hardcore gaming unless you want to talk about consoles which I still enjoy.

    I do have a full flight yoke controller for flight sims plus a couple of hardcore race wheel rigs so I do still do some hardcore gaming but far from what I used to do. It does save me money and time I must say so all and all it isn't bad. :D
     
  4. Estuansis

    Estuansis Regular member

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    Actually most consoles have had some sort of keyboard and mouse support for a while. The percentage is very small, but some gamers do use mice on consoles. As explained, aim assist is what makes it work for consoles. It doesn't reflect any more or less skill, it's just a difference in how they work.

    Also as explained, most PC games have some sort of Xbox 360 pad support. Multi-platform games literally switch to Xbox 360 controls. So it's not like PC gamers are limited to mouse and keyboard.

    A pad is easier to just pick up and play. Mouse and keyboard require a lot of practice to be proficient with.

    I started gaming when I was maybe 5 on a SNES. My first video game was either Super Mario World or Star Fox. Started PC gaming when I was maybe 14. Am 22 right now, going to be 23 in March. Have been a member here at AD since January 2006. So while not being as experienced as some, I am more experienced than many. Sure I am absolutely biased, but don't think I'm ramming my opinion down your throat, that is far from what I am trying to do.

    Still game with joysticks quite a bit. Enjoy playing my Gamecube and PlayStation 3 a lot, but my PC sees far more use. I like the better graphics, Mouse and KB controls, and modding capability. Have put a lot of time and effort into my PC. I hand-built the box I play games on to a higher standard than a console could ever be, and I take some small amount of pride in it. That didn't stop me from buying the Metal Gear Solid HD Collection for PS3 last week :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  5. theonejrs

    theonejrs Active member

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    Rich,

    Miniature air turbines for dental handpieces (Hi Speed Drills). Basically, I take new designs and through metallurgy and design refinements, I get them to live at 450,000 rpm @35 psi. The whole thing consists of a spindle and chuck assembly, two miniature radial or angular ball bearings and an impeller, held in by two o-rings. A finished turbine cartridge is about 3/8" long and about the width of a cigarette. The trick is to keep as much weight as you can, as close to the center line of the spindle as possible, while keeping the turbine vanes as light as possible, yet strong enough, not to break, while being no louder than 40 Dba, maximum. They also have to be able to withstand 134C for ten minutes in a steam or chemical autoclave, to be sterilized.

    Happy New Year Everybody,
    Russ
     
  6. Mr-Movies

    Mr-Movies Active member

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    That's why those dental drills have such a nasty sound to them, those turbans really wind up. I prefer the real thing myself as I use to work in the Jet engine testing environment were I traveled all over the world staying for years in Thailand, Philippines, Singapore, Soul, St. Anthony England, and many other places. Worked with the military and commercial airlines too.

    I bought a 27" IPS with resolution of 2560x1440 and wow I just love the extra real-estate it provides and very sharp picture. I haven't calibrated yet but I can hardly wait to use it for Photoshop, AutoCAD, Visio, Programming, and Excel amongst other stuff as well.

    Happy New Year all!
    Stevo :D
     
  7. theonejrs

    theonejrs Active member

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    I got my Arctic cooling fans. I bought two, 1 for each new computer, and a Zalman single fan controller, as I still had my original, from the old Zalman cooler, but never used, back when I had my Dell 3000 Pentium 4.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186079

    It moves more air quieter, than any other fan I've ever tried, and I've tried most of the hi airflow ones over the years. 74 cfm at 1350 rpm. It's turning about 850 and is moving about 54 cfm.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118217&Tpk=Zalman single fan controller

    What I like best about the Zalman, is that when you set it, it stays set. It has a decent rheostat in it and heavy resistors plus some electronics, So it stays very linear, so, it doesn't wander up and down, in rpms.

    Best Regards and Happy New Year all,

    EDIT:

    Think I'm kidding? This is at 68F ambient. We are not used to cold like this in Southern California. This was in the low 30's here.

    [​IMG]

    Amazing fan!

    Russ
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  8. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    Happy new year all!
    Unified sockets are a good idea in principle, but are not something I'm sure I'm in favour of, because in practice there are other problems with new CPUs.
    Often nowadays unsupported CPUs will not POST in a board, meaning you have to have the board ready before the CPU is installed, usually via a BIOS update. Now that's all well and good, but in the modern era of self-protecting BIOSes, if you overclock, or otherwise induce a system instability, the board can quite easily roll back the BIOS update. What then? To always need an emergency CPU to install to update the BIOS if necessary is a bit ludicrous, and for that reason I always try and ensure I have a board that supports the CPU being installed out of the box.
    To that end, if you're only buying a new board with a future CPU in mind, may as well wait until said CPU is released and there are known boards that support it from day one.
    Poor BIOS support for new CPUs seems a larger problem than with other manufacturers, but with other brands like Asus, apart from the longevity issues, you also have to deal with a much higher risk of faulty BIOS updates, as the updates released aren't always tested that well.


    With regard to single-threaded performance, there's no doubt about Intel's superiority there, but it does have to be said that Bulldozer/Piledriver are starting to fare better in the gaming arena now as the other facets to the architecture are coming into play more. Now granted, this is still with very few specific titles, and only redresses the balance enough to bring the FX CPUs up to their equivalent standing with video encodes, but that's enough to question the validity of statements saying the current FX CPUs will never be much cop for games. Right now, they're still pretty poor, but if the trend continues, their promises increases. Question is of course, will by the time support is good enough, the CPUs still be relevant for performance at all?

    Not going to get into the mouse for games argument, other than to say that although the games console age came before the PC gaming age, for the FPS genre at least where I'd argue there's the strongest case for using a mouse, the mouse actually came first, because PC first person shooters in pseudo-3D predated their console counterparts by at least 2 years.
    The fact that the vast majority of console games apply auto-aim to the analog sticks should say enough, the level of fine accuracy may not be much lower (but it is lower), but the combined accuracy vs. speed tradeoff is far greater with a mouse if you learn to use one correctly.

    Congrats on your monitor purchase Stevo, welcome to the high-res desktop club :)
    The niceness of using a monitor with such a high resolution is overshadowed by how much nicer it is to use at the desktop. Using a 1080p monitor afterwards does feel somewhat claustrophobic! For the same reason I still eagerly await 3840x2160 (or similar) PC monitors. I wouldn't care if the refresh rate and response time is naff, just having that amount of desktop real estate to use office programs and a browser with is so liberating...
     
  9. omegaman7

    omegaman7 Active member

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    Ditto! I would sell just about anything I own for a monitor like that! Can't wait :D
     
  10. Mr-Movies

    Mr-Movies Active member

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    I agree I would love to have something that high-end and would certainly use all of the space it would provide.

    I wasn't aware that the new boards were rolling back the BIOS rev if they encounter a problem when OC'n. If that is true what a mistake the board manufactures are making in doing so. Who wants to keep a low-end extra CPU around to make sure they can always flash the BIOS in case of emergency. Not very smart I'd say, I can see reverting back to default settings but not rev'ing down.

    Good to hear about the ARCTIC fan I will definitely go that route for my new case when I start adding fans soon. Russ you better get a coat on we don't want you getting sick in that 68deg weather.... :D

    Stevo
     
  11. theonejrs

    theonejrs Active member

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    Stevo,

    That was inside, it got down to 33F outside, last night.

    Russ
     
  12. Estuansis

    Estuansis Regular member

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    I agree about that. AFAIK my board POSTs with an X6 but does not recognize the chip and doesn't show some settings without a BIOS update. Have heard good and bad about the newer BIOS so interested to see what happens. In my case the board might need a BIOS with questionable stability. Looking into that. I doubt it holds much weight. There are several revisions so I imagine one of them is decent. I have a backup image in case...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  13. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    Quick little chart I made using the Hardware.fr returns data:

    [​IMG]

    Couple of interesting points to note here:

    1. Motherboards are generally somewhat more reliable now than 3 years ago
    2. Although there is no great difference between brands, Asus is consistently the least reliable brand
    3. Apart from a short period, even under Asus rule, ASRock products are still of a higher standard than those of their parent company.

    It is also worth noting that the increased reliability of motherboards since 2008 is almost entirely attributed to the discontinuation of the nvidia nForce chipset range - the majority of entry-level boards have had a higher reliability rating - e.g. MSI's entry level P31/P33 boards typically had a 1:100 failure rate.
    I will list some 'worst offenders' shortly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  14. theonejrs

    theonejrs Active member

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    Estuansis,

    The F5 bios would probably be the best choice, if you have a rev 1.0 board.

    http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3376#bios

    If you have a rev 2.0 board, the FB bios would be the beat choice.

    http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3421#

    Best Regards,
    Russ
     
  15. Mr-Movies

    Mr-Movies Active member

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    I was thinking of trying out a ASUS board recently but after reading between the lines of reviews it was obvious that they have problems with quality these days so that crossed the Sabertooth off my list of possible MB's.

    Those numbers look pretty good from my experience and what I've read, they seem to be right on track.
     
  16. omegaman7

    omegaman7 Active member

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    Poor poor Asus. NOT! They really need to get back on track, and make an agreeable product. My first PC had an Asus board. This is sad to see them like this :(
     
  17. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    One of the things I wanted to draw attention to with that graph is that all the lines, including Asus' slope upwards, i.e. they are all improving. The improvement just doesn't change the relative standing of the manufacturers, in most cases. It's interesting to see that Gigabyte and MSI both suffered a downturn in late 2011/early 2012, and in both cases this was due to a popular model that was a bum product for reliability. We're not talking huge swathes of failures, but rates more like 1:15 or so, rather than the 1:40-1:50 common of the period. Again, the lack of nforce products is attributable to the increase more than most, but it should be noted that Gigabyte almost point blank refused to sell nforce products back in the day so the fact that their failure rate in 2008 barely escapes that of Asus who produced loads does in fact hint that back then, Gigabyte boards, in a chipset-neutral environment, were less reliable, at least for a time. However, the one nforce product Gigabyte did manufacture scored the worst reliability score of all boards that year, so make of that what you will.

    Unfortunately the period during which I had my long string of bad experiences with Asus is 2006-2008 and there's no data from this site earlier than that shown above. I'd speculate that failure rates were higher still then, but that is as I say, purely speculative.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  18. Estuansis

    Estuansis Regular member

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    It's a rev 1.0 board. Thanks for the heads up :)

    Very interesting. I wonder where they get their numbers and how much, if any, of that data is swayed by short term hardware deaths ie inside 3-6 months. Also there is a much longer story to tell if you look at individual design choices. Power design, cooling, etc. MSI boards are famously underbuilt at some market segments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  19. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    Data is taken from live market sales in france - how many products sold from month 1 to month 6 had been returned by the end of month 12, i.e. between 6-12 months of usage depending on when the product was sold.
    Long-term longevity is not considered here unfortunately - difficult since retail warranty point expires after 12 months in europe and after that you'd be relying on manufacturer figures...
     
  20. Mr-Movies

    Mr-Movies Active member

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    Gigabyte back then had big time issue with the CAPs they used and was why I veered away from them for a short time. It is also around that time that Netgear had similar problems for the exact same reason, even in their professional business line.

    So it wasn't just chipsets that were at fault not that that wasn't a definite factor.
     
  21. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    That probably explains a great deal why Gigabyte go to such excessive lengths to advertise boards that are fully solid-capacitor built...
     

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