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Why different burn ring sizes for same burn ?

Discussion in 'DVD±R for advanced users' started by slik, Jan 12, 2007.

  1. slik

    slik Guest

    I'm a bit baffled at why when I back-up one of my dvd's I get a small burn ring and when I do it again with the same burner and disc it is more appropriately larger. Both burns are playable on PC and standalone DVD player so that is not an issue. I'm a bit worried that the disc with the smaller ring may be less effectively burned and in the long run may faulter. I'm using as the burner LG GSA-4167B as an external and Sony 1-8x discs. I'd be very gratefull if someone could offer me an explanation for this mystery.
     
  2. hayden58

    hayden58 Regular member

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    have you tried using both of the backups yet? do they both work correctly?
     
  3. slik

    slik Guest

    Yeah they both work, just show different burn ring sizes. (one about half the size of the other).
     
  4. hayden58

    hayden58 Regular member

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    thats really strange, maybe someone else has some input on that, the only thing i can think of is to try burning a 3rd one, and see which size it comes out to. if it is not the size of either of the others, then i REALLY don't know what to tell you.
     
  5. slmh1296

    slmh1296 Guest

    First is it the same movie you are backing up on both disk?
    Secondly did you backup with dvd shrink that atuomatically use nero the first time and then with nero by itself the second time using the stored temp files from shrink?
    I am wondering if shrink adds something different. If shrink does, what has me puzzeled is it should not be half the burn area, that is alot of info. the best thing to do is post up the method you are using for both backups. You may not even be using dvdshrink.
     
  6. slik

    slik Guest

    Its the same movie.
    With regards to burning software, I'm using "video vault".
    The whole thing just seems random, sometimes I get a small burn area while others it takes up most of the disk. The movie is 4.17 GB in size so it should take up most of the disk..........Its just puzzling why the disc with the smaller burn area works just as well as the one with most of the disc covered. If I threw away every disc with the smaller burn area as a precaution, I'd probably end up throwing away 40-50% of my discs ! (and waste a lot of time and money in the process)
     
  7. hayden58

    hayden58 Regular member

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    this is EXTREMELY odd. any seniors or addicts have any ideas? im curious as to whats going on.
     
  8. MysticE

    MysticE Active member

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    Assuming that both burned DVDs are in fact the same size they have to have burned the exact same amount on the disc. It is quite common to see different 'shades' of rings on discs burned (usually 2), especially when burned at high speeds. But if you see many narrow rings this is not a good sign as it shows that the burner is struggling a bit with that media.

    If you have the Nero true burning speed reg hack installed or use an app like ImgBurn you will see how the burning speed starts slowly and then kicks up at certain spots, this may result in the different shades you see. Seeing as most burners/discs start burning at about 4X if you limit your burning speed to 4X they should end up a uniform color.
     
  9. hayden58

    hayden58 Regular member

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    sounds like we would notice this alot more if we actually made 2 copies of stuff more often, but most people only need one backup.
     
  10. blivetNC

    blivetNC Regular member

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    All my backups are about the same size and occupy the same area of the disk as far as a burn ring goes, this is spread over three different burners, countless different types of media, and several different burning programs, so I'm perplexed as to why the burn size is different, unless as MysticE suggests it is due to different burn speeds creating different dark/light areas being mistaken for burnt/nonburnt areas on the disl surface. I'm curious is you do a surface scan using Nero Tools Nero CD-DVD speed test [scan disk tab]and see exactly how much of the disk is being used by the data/video file on each.
     
  11. slmh1296

    slmh1296 Guest

    I know when I get home I will be checking mine I have a few backups of the same dvd. If you go into my computer are the file size the same for both dvd's. I never used video vault does it automatically pick the compression rate and final size.
    I have been doing this awhile and this one has me puzzled.
    what speed do you burn at and do you always burn at that speed or is video vault set to auto and kind of does what it wants speeds up slows down? I would also get a program like dvdinfo pro or nero dvd info tool to tell you who made the media maybe they are from different suppliers, sony may have more than one. I know from company to company they all make there disc a little different.
     
  12. slik

    slik Guest

    As far as there being two shades, there isn't. (as far as the human eye can tell, although it must be there as it does play).
    With video vault its just automatic, I press the back-up button and it goes on its way. At the end of the burn both discs read as "used 4.17GB" in "my computer".
    The discs I bought at a retail outlet (which should make the chances of them being fake minimal), and are made in Taiwan. I also use these discs in my dvd recorder and every time I record there, the burn ring is of appropriate size with respect to how much data I record. So I'm doubting it could be a problem with the discs.

    What do you guys think about the fact that I read and burn the dvd in different brands of burner. I read it on a GWA-4166B while burning it on the LG I mentioned before. I also use an "internal" LG dvd burner as an external (with an external device enclosure), and maybe its a problem with the cable connecting. This has frustrated me that I am looking at every little detail for a clue.
     
  13. slmh1296

    slmh1296 Guest

    I would be looking at everything too. If I read your post right you have 3 drives 2 internal 1 external and are all 3 burners. I do not have a external drive but I would not think that having a external drive doing the reading or the burning would effect file size maybe speed but not size.
    I do see what you are saying about your dvd recorder always having proper size on these same disk you are using, meaning it must be the comp setup.
    I guess to test that theory of internal and external. I would do it one way a couple of times maybe internal drives only, then use the other method of internal and external a couple of times and see what the disk look like. what has got me is larger burn area would mean more info or lower compression ratio hints would take up more space.
    I know I asked this once but are you sure these dvds are the same exact dvds same movie title meaning you got 2 copies of a original because I just do not get this problem unless it has to due with the external drive, which i doubt. almost forgot different brands do not make a difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2007
  14. slik

    slik Guest

    Sorry for the poor phrasing, I mean't that I've only got the two burners. What I was trying to get at was that the LG was designed as an internal but I converted it to an external (just popped it into an external case).
    Both copies were taken from the original.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2007
  15. slmh1296

    slmh1296 Guest

    Man slik I would say it is down to process of elimination. Try using just the internal for ripping and burning the backup and see what happens. Then I would try the external for both and see what happens then try the external with the internal both ways. I would think you should fined it when you use the external I do not know why I think that but i do.
    The thing that bugs me is all the drives work properly and maybe this way you can single out what or which combination is causing this problem.
    Another thing have you tried other software and eliminated video vault as the problem, maybe try ripit4me.
    It is funny we keep referring to this as a problem but you have backup's that work. Let me know what you fined
     
  16. slik

    slik Guest

    Yeah I'll give that a try, the only reason I was hesistant doing that was that the LG was mean't to be a great burner with little errors so I stuck with that. It might just end up working better with the GWA as the burner ! I'll give those various methods a try and report back later.
     
  17. mackdl

    mackdl Regular member

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    I just happen to have a LG burner and have used DvdXCopy in the past. As far as I know VideoVault is very similar. I, too, was perplexed with the burn ring. I did a google search and posted some time ago possible reasons when this question was brought up. MysticE's expanation is the most plausible answer I could find.

    Media Information
    Region information N/A not a DVD-VIDEO
    Media code/Manufacturer ID MAXELL 002
    Media Product Revision Number 00h
    Format Capacity Blank Disc
    Free Blocks 405405696
    Free Capacity 4.38GB(4.70GB)
    Book Type DVD+R
    Media Type DVD+R
    Manufacturer Rated Speed 8.0x 11080KBps
    Available Write Descriptor CLV 12.0x 16620KBps
    Available Write Descriptor CLV 8.0x 11081KBps
    Available Write Descriptor CLV 8.0x 11080KBps
    Available Write Descriptor CLV 4.0x 5540KBps
    Data area starting sector 30000h
    Linear Density 0.267um/bit
    Track Density 0.74um/track
    Number of Layers 1

    Complete Media Code
    00000000 08 02 00 00 A1 0F 02 00 00 03 00 00 00 26 05 3F .............&.?
    00000010 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 4D 41 58 45 4C 4C 00 00 30 .......MAXELL..0
    00000020 30 32 00 38 23 54 37 12 02 42 71 02 8C 68 15 15 02.8#T7..Bq..h..
    00000030 0B 0B 08 08 01 19 1B 0C 0C 0C 0D 01 00 00 00 00 ................

    You will notice the different available write descriptors ranging from 4 - 12 X. I timed the write speed and found that my DvdXCopy was using the highest available speed - 12X. When a burner starts to burn it doesn't start out at the highest speed, it has to shift into gear, akin to the transmission on a car. The burn ring indicate when that transition takes place. I could actually hear when the burner sped up.

    I don't use DvdXCopy with my LG burner as I was unable to change the burn speed. I'm not sure if VideoVault allows you to do so? I now use Slysoft's CloneDvd 2, burn at 1/2 the rated speed (or 4X) and the burn ring is a thing of the past.

    I have used Sony 8X MIJ + media, the write descriptors were the same as Maxells.
     
  18. MysticE

    MysticE Active member

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    As I stated if you don't like the ring, 4X burns will eliminate it. Do note that it seems to be more prevalent with LG drives and in no way affects the quality of the burn (unless of course you see many rings, then choose other media). Checking the various LG reviews at CDfreaks you'll see that LG drives produce many excellent burns (at 16X even) on a wide variety of media making them a good choice for those who shop sales on unknown or house branded media.

    The OP said that the burns worked, yet was trying to find a problem where there is none. That his set top doesn't produce these rings is irrelevant to the LG's burn quality ( it probably burns at a slower speed anyway).

    I would also advise to stick with the GSA-4167B, a true LG retail and firmware supported drive over the GWA-4166B, which is not supported by LG (no firmware available from LG). It's an OEM drive that has been built to specs for someone ( DELL for instance) and you will have to rely on them for firmware (few and far between) and does not have all the same features as a true GSA, LG drive. Occasionally these GWA drives are sold bare bones online, avoid them and stick with GSA models.

    Good Luck
     
  19. mackdl

    mackdl Regular member

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    Hi MysticE

    Yes, my burner is a true LG GSA-4163B, latest firmware A-106 (Canadian). I did experience playback problems in certain newer Dvd Players. Odd thing was it was only certain movies. I also have a 4X burner and using this burner I redid my backups (using the original) with the same media, and the issue was resolved. Unfortunately LG's cannot do the quality scans, or at least mine can't. I did do a CRC scan with no errors.

    At the time I was using either MIJ Sony or Fuji 8X (ID Ty's) or MIJ Maxells, so this was not a case of using poor media.

    I can only speak through my own experience.
     
  20. MysticE

    MysticE Active member

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    Forget the CRC scans try a Transfer Rate test in Nero CD-DVD Speed and see how it goes. A nice clean line usually denotes a good burn.

    If I'm reading this right you did not use the same files when you re-burned, but created new ones, then burned? If so it's not a valid test. The 'only certain movies' catch might not be media related. But it's important to do what works for you and what makes you comfortable. It seems your burner should handle the media you use well. CDFreak's tests show nice results.

    http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/LG-...-DVD-Burner/DVD-R_RW-Writing-performance.html

    I have a GSA-4167 and a BenQ 1640. The LG handles crap media better (bought at cheap sales), CMC, ProDisc, MBI, Opto etc. For the folks who are always mooching discs. Hardly any complaints.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2007

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