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Why So Fond Of FrameServing, dRD?

Discussion in 'Convert DVD to another format' started by A_Klingon, Jan 3, 2002.

  1. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    It's basically the only reason I disagree with your vcd article. Everything else makes sense.

    It's convenient if nothing else to be able to encode/convert a movie directly. Using FlaskMpeg with it's built-in BBMpeg plugin, frameserving to TMPEnc becomes unnecessary.

    Frameserving in general, is an extra burden.

    Hope you got my personal correspondence re: Sony CDExtreme.

    -- KlingonAgent --
     
  2. crfollett

    crfollett Guest

    I could never figure out how to do the 2 pass encoding in flask. Vdub seems pretty straight forward for that. Maybe that is why they suggest using it and frame serving.
     
  3. TMPEGGED

    TMPEGGED Guest

    well Klingon, having used both methods myself, and weighing quality, time, and options, I have to say that frameserving DVD2AVI through TMPGENC is actually LESS time-consuming than using Flask-BBMpeg. Let me tell you how:

    Smartripper Reason - Time and Space!
    (Less than 1 HR)
    If you use the MOVIE option in Smartripper instead of the FILE option, you usually end up with a much smaller VOB sequence than just ripping the whole damn thing. And it takes less time too.

    DVD2AVI Reason #1 - Less AUDIO/VIDEO glitching!
    (Less than 1 HR)
    Another side-effect of using MOVIE in Smartripper and going into dvd2avi is that your video continuity is MUCH BETTER. (TRUST ME. I TRIED EVERYTHING OUT THERE) There is significantly more video noise going 2-pass bbmpeg than if you were to do the 2-step Frameserving from DVD2AVI into TMPGENC.

    DVD2AVI reason #2: WAY BETTER PREVIEW POWER!
    The scenario goes: open flask, get the vob, decide how long to rip BEFORE YOU CAN SEE THE MOVIE, preview, repeat. WHY? lol.
    Better scenario: open DVD2AVI, preview, crop, rip. Open TMPGENC, have 10 million options, preview, make movie.

    TMPGENC reason: CLEANUP!
    (on a 1.2Athlon, 6hrs for 120min of film WITH FILTERS ENABLED!)
    you can choose a wide variety of filters, raise the audio level, and even change the framerate more accurately with T... BBmpeg through flask is not nearly as reliable or flexible.

    Before I start sounding too much like an infomercial for TMPGEnc, I should mention that I used your method for a long time before discovering these things. AND FELT REALLY DUMB WHEN I REALIZED THAT HALF THE MOVIES I HAD ALREADY DONE WERE NOWHERE NEAR AS GOOD AS THIS.

    To sum up, you have a choice.
    1: Use flask-bbmpeg, burn, and say "I am good."
    2: Use DVD2AVI-TMPGENC, burn, and say "I'm THE MAN."

    Take heed.
    Hope this helped.
    ~TMPEGGED
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2002
  4. dRD

    dRD I hate titles Staff Member

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    LOL :-D

    No further comments ;-)
     
  5. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Yo, TMPEGGED !

    Good points all, but many of them don't apply to me. I must say, I've pumped-out close to 50 full-length Divx's using Flask, but am only now 'getting into' BBmpeg and the creation of standard white-book compliant vcds.

    Not ultra familiar with TMPGEnc, but a few observations:

    I have limited disc space (about 9 gigs max for any given dvd). Frameserving to TMP requires *more* space than Flask, because the sound output file is an uncompressed .wav (around 1.5 gigs on average). This must be made into an .mp2 for vcd. That wave file can make-or-break it for me in being able to do a whole movie in one go, because the original vobs and the wavefile must both coexist on the drive at the same time. With Flask, the original sound output is either .mp2 (much smaller than wave), or multipled into the mpeg (still smaller).

    To put it another way, after ripping Star Trek: The Movie, and frameserving (creating a project file) with dvd2avi TO TMP, I was able to process only about 63 megs worth of the final movie (a few minutes worth) before I ran out of disc space.

    No such problem with Flask. I did it in one fell swoop, *including* the separate processing of both video and audio files (as I always do).

    (Incidentally, my Flask/Divx's would blow anything I've seen on the net out of the water), and my vcds are coming along just fine.

    But let's touch on your observations: (Remember, I'm not a TMPEGEnc "afficiando").

    "Less Audio/Video glitching"

    I don't understand. Using Flask, I've never experienced "glitching". Even when ripping and processing vobs separately then joining afterwards.

    "Your video continuity is better."

    Vague comment. So far as I can tell, my video continuity is just fine.

    "Way better preview power."

    Irrelevant. 'Previewing' a movie hardly matters for two reasons. a)I know what I've got before I ever rip it. b) Previewing a movie is no indication of how it's going to look after processing. (Either Divx, vcd, or whatever).

    You go on about how nice it is not to have to set up Flask, laboriously encode some minutes (or seconds) of the film to see how it's gonna turn out. Firstly,hat's a small price to pay to see the *actual* final output, and what it's going to look like. Secondly, who says I can't preview in TMPEGEnc *anyway* befoe I even *use* Flask?? Thirdly, why would I need to preview in TMP when I can simply play back the vobs as is anyway.

    It's no great shakes to preview in TMP, TMPEGGED.

    "Cleanup! [raise the audio level, etc.)"

    Yes, TMP does have an audio-compression feature. I don't like it. I process my audio separately, which, considering the ultra-wide dynamic characteristics of an AC-3 soundtrack, needs all the processing it can get to be enjoyable on most people's computer speakers, or regular, home-type tv sets.

    Specifically, I use two separate passes of the soundtrack with an outboard software program, "Audiograbber". I use the advanced settings to go beyond merely adjusting the pek output level to 98%. That doesn't help. I *compress* the soundtrack 100%, then re-process the resulting file *again* (recompress). This gives me a marvelously enjoyable sountrack, completely intelligible, similar to what you'd get on a pre-recorded VHS video-cassette. Which is exactly what I've aimed for.

    So I have no need for TMP's "normal" or "heavy/strong" (or whatever) audio processing.

    I don't understand your 'cleanup!' comment.

    "...able to change the rame rate with TMP...."

    Well, I have at least two other options for that, either AVIFrameRate, or VirtualDub, neither of which is applicable here, TMPEGGED, because I'm making vcds which allow NO other framerate other than NTSC-29.97 frames per second. Period. (Region 1 discs). Oh! I've got ALL KINDS of experience with changing frame rates. (Ever change a movie's framerate out to 4 or 5 decimal place's-worth, so that the farking audio/video will match up?)

    With *either* Flask's BBMpeg plugin, OR TMP's NTSC-vcd .mcf template, framerate becomes a non-issue anyway.

    "BBMpeg through Flask is not nearly as eliable or flexible."

    ???????

    Vague. I have all the flexibility I need. Either for Divxs *or* vcds. Mind you, I DO use TMP for fixing-up downloaded video clips (sometimes) to put them in proper vcd format prior to burning, but then, I also use VirtualDub and Flask as for that as well.

    Your comments about SmartRipper and all of it's wonderful flexibility isn't revelant here because they apply to both Flask *and* TMP.

    I too use SmartRipper exclusively. I rip *only* the single English soundtrack, no others (including director's comments, etc.), no subtitles, or "other", etc. etc.

    One thing you should know about Flask. There are NO audio/video sync issues with it using BBMpeg. This has been documented by Doom9 in one of his articles. Whereas I have made many Divxs with the a/v sync initially WAY out of whack, I now can make *bang-on-syncronized* vcds of *those very same dvds*!

    As yet, I have still to make a Flask/BBMpeg vcd with incorrect a/v sync right out of the starting gate, but of course I haven't made many vcds yet, and the night is still young. :)

    Now let me tell you what I DON'T like about TMP. (I used to dislike the 30-day limitation for processing mpeg2 files, but I've gotten around that. You've all gotten around that, right?)

    As I've already mentioned, TMP hogs up more disc space in the processing of any given movie than Flask/BBMpeg. (Project file + .wav file). This wouldn't be a problem if I had that nifty 20-meg hard-disc I've been looking at, but with slightly under 9 megs to play with, a Vob-rip of 6-7 megs doesn't leave me with a whole lot of leeway unless I am willing to rip vobs separately. (Which I often must anyway).

    In addition, I have to use the most *excruitiatingly* obtuse method to get TMP to cut my finished mpeg1 files under the "Tools-Merge/Split" menu. This is one of the biggest problems with TMP, if my interpretation of other people's woes in this area on the official TMP website is any indication. I won't go into that here because I've already posted up a separate thread here on this. Suffice to say, if I go *anywhere* near TMP's slider-bar, my whole computer hangs (CTRL/ALT/DEL/EndTask), and I have to start all over again.

    One final note:

    Why frameserve *anyway* if it's not necessary?

    (It's not necessary).

    Thank You! for the spirited comparison!

    (Are you still LOL, dRD?) <gg>

    -- KlingonAgent --
     
  6. dRD

    dRD I hate titles Staff Member

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    :) I let you guys continue the conversation -- basically my point for using framserving and other methods that I like to promote in here, is the fact that TMPGEnc is free and when speaking of MPEG-1 encoding, only Panasonic MPEG-1 Encoder can compete with it in terms of video quality -- and as Panasonic is commercial product, I rather recommend an option for our users that doesn't require purchasing (or getting pirated version, whatever) commercial tools.

    And I hate Flask's UI :)
     
  7. TMPEGGED

    TMPEGGED Guest

    I agree with you on some parts of your rebuttal. Mainly the ones regarding the quality of DivX encoding using bb/flask. However, where is the versatility in a DivX file? Most players do not support the DivX format: Most do support VCD format. That is my overall point. If you want to take a movie to a friend's house and watch it on a big screen, why not encode the movie in parts with TMPG in order to get that option?
    Granted, there are video cards with TV-out capability, and this, to a certain extent, gets around the compatibility issue. But what if your buddy doesn't have one?
    I ADMIRE the quality of some of the DivX AVIs I have seen ripped from DVDs in the very same method you mention. And with your limited hard drive space I understand the need for a single small AVI file result. But to be fair (TO ME! =}) you must admit that using smartripper as Movie rather than Files usually can save you enough space to warrant the .wav file created using DVD2AVI, and still leave room for your completed project.
    Not to be rude, but most people DO have a hard drive (or DRIVES) greater than 20GB these days... and frameserving, while not necessary, actually cuts the time for those of us with faster processors. As I stated before, it takes me less than an hour, and most times less than 30 minutes to rip with smartripper (the step you also do). Frameserving with DVD2AVI usually takes about a half hour for a full length movie.
    After that, I do the conversions for seperate VCD discs using TMPG. In other words, the first 1/2 of the movie (cut at a convenient breaking point), and the second half later when I return from doing whatever I want in my real life. This also nullifies your "space crisis" argument, as you could burn the first half, take it off your hard drive, then create the second half.
    I also find it very hard to believe that with 9 gigs of space there is not enough room for a 1 gig .wav file made with DVD2AVI...
    Not that there's only ONE way to set up a small hard drive, but:
    1 gig for Windows and related program files
    5 gigs for the vobs
    1 gig for the .wav file
    700 or so megs per half movie
    STILL leaves you a little over a gig to mess with. If you have other things on your drive that take up more space on a slow pc, then sheer horror drives me to ask why! You have found something your pc can handle that is both rewarding and enjoyable. Why not make it more compatible as well?

    just a few more thoughts.
    p.s. 80GB hard drives are on sale at Sam's Club right now for $119 in most of Florida. Want to buy one off me?

    ~TMPEGGED

     
  8. TMPEGGED

    TMPEGGED Guest

    just a short addition to your comment on Panasonic encoder, DRD: I used it for a short time, liked it better than bbmpeg for quality, but it is rather pricey ($89 on Panasonic's website) and also tends to alternate between blurry and crisp frames in the resulting files.
    Looking at a mountainside in "The Princess Bride" has never been more irritating! Also, it takes longer to convert than bbmpeg does.

    ~TMPEGGED
     
  9. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi guys!

    TmPegged, you're absolutely right, and I couldn't agree with you more..... [re: Divx vs VCD; "Where is the vesatility?"], and is exactly the reason I stopped making the (admittedly better-looking Hi-Bitrate, Lo-Motion codec) Divxs in favour of the emminently more practical VCD format.

    I get tremendous satisfaction out of viewing a laboriously-made but super-looking vcd on my standalone player, even If I *do* have to swap the durn discs.

    And yes, I do need a larger hard drive regardless of what software I use, but funds are rather tight right now - it's why I use the free stuff - for now I guess it comes down to 'doing-the-best-one-can-with-what-one-has'. Thank you for the offer though! :)

    dRD - "[reason] for frameserving.....that I like to promote in here, is.....TMPGEnc is free."

    Flask is, also.

    "When speaking of Mpeg-1 encoding, only the Panasonic.....can compete with it.....[plus it costs money]"

    Yikes! I'm definately going to have to bow to TmPegged's take on that one; he *has* the Panasonic Encoder! :)

    I'm not an expert by any account (that's why I'm here; to learn) - but from Nicky Page of Divx-Digest in his article, "DVD to VCD with Flask Mpeg" :

    "The free BBMpeg plugin produces slightly better quality than Xing and about the same quality or better as the Panasonic encoder. This quality is usually as good as most professionally-made VCDs too, so there is probably no need to change it."

    "And I hate Flask's UI."

    (Yeah, it does take a bit of getting used to, doesn't it?) - Still, I think it's the best method going.

    It's all personal preference, dRD. Whatever software works well for each individual user, is the very best software to use.

    I just fire up Flask, go get drunk, come back in a week or two, and everything is ready for me. :)

    By the way TmPegged and dRD, just about *everything* we've learned about ripping/encoding over the last year is going to stand us in *very* good stead when AFFORDABLE DVD-R drives finally become mainstream. (The key word here is "Affordable" - right now the drives are not). For all I know, we'll be using much of the same software tools as we do now. Man! It's going to be NICE not to have to swap vcds in the middle of a flick!

    I was both amazed and pleased to learn in another post on this Forum that, yes, one can indeed buy single-sided dvdrs for $5.00 US !. (I visited the link the gentleman posted). I honestly think this is a breakthrough of sorts, and just the beginning of price-drops to come as dvdrs continue to catch on. I doubt we'll ever see 55-pence blanks like we do with today's cdrs, but still.....

    Just imagine! Region-Free, Macro-vision-free homemade DVDS (sporting identical video quality) *without* the mandatory FBI/Interpol warnings, mind-numbing back-to-back infomercial-type up-&-coming movie trailers, etc.

    It's enough to make a High-Profile Hollywood Lawyer cry into his champagne, isn't it? :)

    -- KlingonAgent --

     
  10. dRD

    dRD I hate titles Staff Member

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    Yeah, definately you're right -- it's everybody's own choice what tools they use; I use the combination I normally refer to and hand out instructions for using it if someone has problems with it and can't comment on Flask issues :)

    And for DVD-R -- if you go through the forums, you see that this topic is getting more and more popular and I'm almost certain that by the summer 2002 DVD-R 2 DVD-R copying will be as big (or almost as big) as VCDs are now.

    But obviously there's a catch from MPAA in here :) Read this, swear few times, cry a little bit and bulk-buy good DVD players before those *************ers get this implemented to players...

    http://www.dvdcca.org/data/css/Request_Expression_of_Interest.pdf
     
  11. TMPEGGED

    TMPEGGED Guest

    it's ok, dRD...
    The programmers will figure out how to put the CSS back on the discs after duplication.
    All we have to do is help those blessed programmers come up with a new program.
    Let's call it "RE-CSS"...

    ~TMPEGGED
     
  12. dRD

    dRD I hate titles Staff Member

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    My guess is that we just need to get our (upcoming) players mod'd like we've done so far as well (to get rid of region coding and Macrovision) -- it would probably take two or three months before some clever Chinese sweatshops start shipping new modchips for new DVD players and recorders.
     
  13. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    What a *horrid* .pdf that was, dRD. (Thanks for the link).

    You can tell it was written by lawyers. Once you manage to get past the legaleeze gobbledegook, you can see that Hollywood is trying to gear-up for the onslaught of mass-produced DVD-R drives coming down the pike.

    Right now they are going to try (and are preparing) to impose as many restrictions on the format as they humanly and legally can. You can bet yer bippy, some Fair Rights Uses are going to get a bit trampled on here.

    From what I can gather from all of this, are they (the DVD Consortium/dvdcca/MPAA) sending out feelers to the Internet community at-large, requesting the means/intelligence to effectively cripple our "permissable" usage of the format? (Seems like it). Can't they hire their own programming geniuses to do it? Or Bill Gates? Or do they need US?

    You know, the Internet community en-masse is a fairly intelligent and resourceful lot. I believe that sooner or later we are going to find ways around whatever this body of legal-beagles conjures up.

    Looks like WW-III is shaping up.

    (Dropping the commercial retail end-user-prices of DVDs would surely circumvent a lot of this nonsense, but there is no way in Haydes Hollywood is going to jeopardize the greatest cash-cow in history short of the manufacture or War arms).

    Pity.

    -- KlingonAgent --
     

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