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Discussion in 'DVD±R media' started by paztelu, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. arniebear

    arniebear Active member

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    Finally cooled off here after a week and half of 85 to 90. Heat makes you not want to do anything but stay inside with air conditioning, finally got my lawn mowed. I too wish people would do a google, the answers are so readily available, as my daughter tells her kids google is your friend, use it :~)
     
  2. ScubaPete

    ScubaPete Senior member

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    @paztelu,


    The vast majority of Fuji -R are in fact made by Prodisc according to MediaMatch while all of the Fuji +R discs are made by TY. Because where it was made works for one Mfgr (Fuji), doesn't mean it works for all media made which is the general statement that "BB" made. Making a general statement can get one into trouble, trust me I know, I've done it. (Lol)
    Hence, I recommend the Fuji +R and not the -R.

    http://www.mediamatch.de/showdvdanbieter.php

    Click the "Search" icon (the magnifying glass) at the right-side of each Fuji type/pack to sea who made them ~

    Enjoy the 'search" :)





    Hi Jimbo, ole' Buddy,

    The reason I had to jump in (you knew there was something other than my obvious posting question, you know me too well :) was, that a while ago, a member called BBMayo stated on his web site that, Japan = Good, Taiwan = Bad and it seems to have caught on. It doesn't work that way and so, that statement was totally incorrect.

    The media situation has been way too confusing for too long. Trying to make sense by saying, you can trust x, y and z because of where they are made is lunacy. As you stated so well, we judge these discs because of what they do, of what works for us, time after time in the vast majority of cases and situations. Trying to do otherwise just leads pple astray. Even telling pple to buy all of a single Mfgr doesn't work. Ritek for example, their G04, G05 and their Ridata G03 are fine discs BUT the Ritek G01 and 02, don't cut the mustard, they Suck the big tamale.

    We do have to strike down this "Disc by local" movement because it will just result in our poor Newbie friends buying the wrong media and having bad burns all because too many pple are posting this information and it results in making the muddy waters even more hard to see through.

    Attention, Newbies, we take the time to list certain media, not because we get a commission from every sale BUT because we've already tried those discs and found them to be of extremely poor quality. We've already lost our money so that you don't have too. By listening to us, you can save yourself tons of money and a ton of media that "forgets" your data and your music and DVD films.

    (What happened to the "ole' Jim" avatar ? I miss it, Lol)





    @kivory666,

    Princo is indeed crap And often suffers "Memory loss" with in the first year.BUT it also has a base in the USA and believe it or not, in Japan as listed by MediaMatch ~

    When I mentioned Princo, I did not do so lightly. A search of MediaMatch shown that Princo has Mfgr plants in:

    http://www.mediamatch.de/showdvdanbieter.php

    Translation by WorldLingo
    So, as you sea, we have a company who has plants in both places, adding to the confusion. Fuji is the same way, having discs made in both countries.

    About those discs that no longer play,
    I have been, for some time, been speaking to the problem of degenerating discs which I term, "Memory Loss". That means discs which will no longer play anywhere. On different threads throughout aD, I have posted the following pieces which speaks to CD's AND while it doesn't name them as much, it releats just as much to DVD's also.

    FAIR WARNING, Memory loss. . . . .
    Using that "Cheap" quality media, your backups might not last all that long -


    One thing I haven't addressed is the life of a backup made on an "el cheapo" disc. We all know that data, music and video backups on CD's and DVD's will last forever, well, if not forever for at least 100 yrs or so - That's what we've read and I believed and that's why we backup our treasures to disc, so that they'll be safe. "BLAaaaT" (the bone chilling sound of an emergency air horn), Wrong, Dead Wrong ! Don't throw the originals away, you may very well need them. Your video camera tapes and family picture CD's and DVD's, may not be there the next time you want to look at them. "Point of fact," inferior discs have a tendency to "Break down]" in time. In a very short time, we're talking disc can breakdown in less than a single year, in as little as 6 to 8 months.

    from:
    POSTED: 5:33 pm EDT May 14, 2004
    UPDATED: 11:11 pm EDT May 14, 2004

    Do you have everything stored on compact discs and DVDs? Well, those records may not be there forever.

    Experts are discovering that data on discs is breaking down in several different ways. Consumer Alert went looking for simple ways to prolong the life of CDs and DVDs.

    When CDs came out to store music, data and family pictures, they were supposed to last a lifetime -- experts predicted between 70 and 200 years. But that is not what is happening.

    "Some people have noticed that the CDs are not lasting forever -- that they are, in fact, deteriorating," said Dr. Bruce Eisenstein, of Drexel University in Philadelphia.

    Dan Koster is one of the people who have noticed a problem with CDs. He said some won't even play anymore.

    Koster is the Web content manager at Queens University of Charlotte. He started to notice disc damage years ago.
    "I had a disc that was previously playing very well and it was now unplayable -- yet the surface had no scratches. It looked to be in good condition, so I took it and held it up the light," Koster remembered.

    He saw pinholes where light was shining through the disc. The information on the disc had actually oxidized.
    Some pictures of Koster's CDs showed what else can happen to your precious music or memories.

    Some of the discs were not properly sealed around the edges, which allowed oxygen to seep in between the plastic layers and caused the edge to rot.

    Bronzing is what happens when sulphur from the CD booklet mixes with the lacquer on the CD itself.

    "This bronzing here at the edge, it's so fragile where it's happened you can actually scrape the data right off -- I mean, it's just toast," Koster said.


    Sometimes Discs deteriorate because they are poor quality, but most of the time it is because people don't handle them correctly, according to Koster.

    "From fingerprints and other things that get on the disc, bacteria can grow in there," Eisenstein said.

    Bacteria leaves behind acid that breaks down the layers on the DVD or CD. Also, most people worry about scratches on the underside of the disc, where the info is stored, but because of the way ]Discs are made, scratches on the topside can be more damaging because they expose your data to the atmosphere. That is why you should only use a soft pen with water-based ink when you write on a Disc.

    You can protect your DVD's and CDs and prolong their life. Don't stack them on top of one another, handle them by the edges and store them vertically in their cases in a cool, dry place.

    "If you want your discs to last a long time, keep them out of the sun, keep them out of bright lights, don't expose them to the elements," Eisenstein said.

    Related Resources:
    Classical Net On Bronzed CDs
    Hyperion Records Limited, London on Bronzed CDs

    MediaLine News
    Copyright 2004 by NBC10.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.



    AND HERE:

    This article was written about CD discs but again, DVD discs are exactly the same. I was miss-informed and this opened my eyes. Perhaps you'll find it as important as I did.

    from the; Independent Portfolio Content

    Ever decreasing circlesEver decreasing circles You know those CD-R's and DVD-R's that you've trusted your most precious memories to? They could be little more use than coasters after just two years. Michael Pollitt investigates April 2004 Are we putting too much faith in the ubiquitous "recordable CD", or CD-R? It is undeniably one of the most useful means of storage around, offering an inexpensive way to save digital photographs, music and files and costing less than 50 pence per disc. If you check the claims made by some manufacturers of popular CD-R brands, you will see that some make bold claims indeed. Typical boasts include: "100-years archival life", "guaranteed archival lifespan of more than 100 years" and "one million read cycles". One company even says data can be stored "swiftly and permanently", leaving you free to bequeath those backups of your letter to the electricity company to your great great grandchildren. But an investigation by a Dutch personal computer magazine, PC Active, has shown that some CD-R's are unreadable in as little as two years, because the dyes in the CD's recording layer fade. These dyes replace the aluminum "pits" of a music CD or CD-Rom, and the laser uses that layer to distinguish 0s from 1s. When the CD is written, the writing laser "burns" the dye, which becomes dark, to represent a "1" while a "0" will be left blank so that if the dye fades, there's no difference; it's just a long string of nothing to the playback laser. So have you already lost those irreplaceable pictures you committed to the silver disc? PC Active suggests we should forget CD-R's as a durable medium, after its own testing found some with unreadable data after just two years. "Though they looked fine from the outside, they turned out to be completely useless," wrote the technical editor Jeroen Horlings, who had tested 30 brands in 2001, left them in a dark cupboard for two years and then re-tested them in August 2003. Of the brands tested, 10 per cent showed ageing problems. And it wasn't just Horlings. After seeing the results, shocked readers contacted the magazine with their experiences. Recordable DVD's are not off the hook either. The "dye chemicals" in write-once DVDs are similar to CD-R, though recording density and disk construction differ. "We're in the process of testing DVDs and we're sure that the same problems will occur," said Horlings, who plans to publish his findings soon. Gordon Stevenson, the managing director of Vogon International - a company specializing in data recovery - is familiar with these shortcomings thanks to the experiences of his customers, one of whom commissioned Vogon to retrieve pictures of his second honeymoon from a failed six-month-old CD-R. "The dye layer was fading," Stevenson says, "but we were able to recover most of the disk. But these claims [of a 100-year archival life] are unhelpful and misleading. If you're spending 20p on something, you probably don't expect it to last 100 years," he says. In the wrong conditions, such as sunlight, humidity and upper surface damage, your CD-R will slowly turn into a coaster. "CD-R's should never be left lying in sunlight as there's an element of light sensitivity, certainly in the poor quality media," says Stevenson. "I wouldn't rely on CD-R's for long-term storage unless you're prepared to deal with them as recommended. "Such views are echoed by the National Archives at Kew. "Generally speaking, we don't recommend CD-R's for long-term storage," says Jeffrey Darlington, a project manager at the Archives' Digital Preservation Department. "We don't regard CD-R's as an archival medium. Most of the CD-R's on the market are not of archival quality." Instead of CD-R's, therefore, the National Archives tend to use magnetic tape rated for a 30-year life. Also, they are careful to copy, check and re-copy to avoid losing information and this is also a useful strategy for CD-R's. "If you keep doing that so the CD-R is never more than physically three to five years old, you'll be safe enough. A hundred years sounds pretty unlikely," says Darlington. Not optical media is vulnerable. The rewritable variants (RW) use metallic materials that change the phase of the light, rather than light-sensitive dyes. Commercial magneto-optical and ultra-density optical systems are different too. Stewart Vane-Tempest, the optical product director at Plasmon, the archival specialists, has first-hand experience of unreadable CD-R media. "Some dyes are very robust, but others not," Vane-Tempest says. "The one thing they have in common is susceptibility to environmental conditions. I do a lot of digital photography and pay top price for media. If I have anything important, I generally make a couple of copies. I've not used CD-R's for long-term archiving. "Vane-Tempest also offers a tip. Blank CD-R disks have a code that your CD writer reads to find the best writing strategy. If this isn't in the CD-writer's inbuilt software (its "firmware"), the default may be a poor compromise. Vane-Tempest says that some "less scrupulous" Far East companies have been using other people's codes, with deficient results. However, there is a way around this, which is to find out which brands suit your writer and ensure the firmware is up to date. While such matchmaking is useful, there's no way to assess CD-R longevity at home. All you can do is check periodically. As for whether manufacturers are guilty of using finger-in-the-air methods, Kevin Jefcoate, the marketing and product management director at Verbatim, says: "It's a bit more than guesswork because there's a lot of scientific evidence to back it up. "The answer, Jefcoate says, is to use a climate chamber to accelerate the ageing of the organic dye. Using a relationship between chemical reaction rate and temperature, 100-year lifetimes may be argued for normal conditions. Jefcoate adds that he has never known users to complain of age-related failures? "We haven't had anyone complain that, after three to five years, it hasn't worked." It's easy to blame budget CD-R's when things go wrong. Novatech's purchasing and product manager, Kriss Pomroy, suggests users buy a small quantity for testing first. The PC builder sells unbranded CD-R's sourced from a Far East distributor that buys over-production from well-known factories. Are we saving pennies and taking risks? "No," says Pomroy, "You can get problematic batches, but that's as true with branded media." The company now sells two-and-a-half times more unbranded write-once DVDs than CD-R's. The world's No 1 supplier of CD-R's, Imation, talks of "saving precious digital photo memories" - exactly what many people think they're doing. Semar Majid, its technical marketing executive, hasn't heard of any ageing problems. "Optical media should last between 30 and 200 years," he says, "but it's dependent on storage conditions and how you handle it." He suggests transferring important photos to DVD, and keeping on moving to new formats. Another big maker, TDK, takes a cautious view with DVDs, claiming only a 70-year lifespan. "This does not mean that DVD is more fragile or unstable in time compared to CD-R; this is only because of the shorter experience that we have in manufacturing and testing this relatively young technology," says the TDK product manager Hartmut Kulessa. There have been no complaints about ageing failures. As the oldest CD-R is barely a teenager, there are no definitive answers either. But perhaps the last word belongs to Jeroen Horlings at PC Active. "We see a lot of manufacturers and they think that quantity is more important than quality," he says. "The problem will remain." For more info on CD-R's and dyes: www.burnworld.com/cdr/primer/whatis.htm; www.xdr2.com/CDR-Info/Dye.htm

    My personal observations on this subject -

    I have had about 40 backups that have refused to play after being stored for a year or more. I test all of my backups when they are burnt to be very sure that there are no problems. "In the Golden, Olden times," before I knew any better, the Memorex, Maxell -R's and professional "Store Brand" discs (and any thing that was on sale) was what used before I switched to Ritek, RICOH and Verbatim (Mitsubishi Chemical Corp.).

    It is the poor quality stuff that I have been experiencing my trouble with. I noticed that backup DVD's I had, refused to play in my standalone player and on my PC. VOB files wouldn't play either and other discs that I backed up about the same time would "Freeze" part way through the movie. After switching to Verbatim and Ritek's, mostly the Ritek's because the price was right, I've not had 1 go "Flat" in over 1 ½ years. I still have some backups about 90 of them done on the "cheap stuff" and, as time wears on I lose a few more as I attempt to check them. I say to you, why did a backup play fine the end of "02"and "03" then "fail" in "04 ?? Some that were done in "03" never made it till "04" (it took me some time to learn, lol) Most of my backups from around March of "03" were done on the "good Stuff" and they still work fine today - not a single failure ! What about now ? Well, 2005 is the year, I'll wait no longer, before this year is through I'm going to test the rest and most likely re-record them onto a decent grade of media. It's been too long and I don't want to run the risk that I've lost an original OR one has been borrowed and never returned (like that's never happened, Huh ?). I want my discs back and 005 is the year -

    Don't go through what I did, protect your investment.

    So, it's not only a matter of coasters OR of a crisp burn without freezes OR skips, it is in fact, about your Data. Why were you backing up your discs to begin with ? To have them if something happened to the original ? Using, "el Cheapo" quality media might just be a waste of your time and money. Are you really saving $$$$ when you discs last for only a year or two ? One for sure, a well made disc will out last a cheap one.

    As always, the choice is yours ~

    Ciao everyone,

    May the good burn be your burn,

    Pete
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2005
  3. jim_dandy

    jim_dandy Active member

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    You dont miss the "ole Jim" part, you miss the other part. LOL
    I miss her too.... errrrrr ummm.. I mean... [bold]it[/bold].
    I was asked by one of the mods in here to dump it, because it was too big.I even had scubabud personalize it for me.So I was forced, kicking, and screaming, to find another one.*sniff sniff*

    Back on the subject of this thread....
    I stated before,and as fastfrank stated on another thread,just today....[bold]People would rather think their computer was toast,then admit they made the wrong choice in media[/bold].

    You see it all the time....people have I/O errors and they would rather tear out, and reassemble the burner, than just change the darn disc they are burning.Using different media is such a simple fix, and yet most people just won't even consider it.

    Bottom line to all this is, use good media(no matter where it's made) and most of your problems are solved.

     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2005
  4. paztelu

    paztelu Regular member

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    @Scuba

    I know Fujifilm that are made in japan are TY, how can I not trust TY?? as I said in a post before these DOES NOT apply to anything else the myth taiwan=bad japan=good is not true MCC makes their disc in Taiwan and indeed they are very good, so if the only way I can know who manufacturer of a disc is by knowing where is made then I can be sure I can trust Fujifilm DVD's that are made in japan because they are made by Taiyo Yuden, and wouldnt you Trust Taiyo Yuden?


    about the aging of the disc, I have some disc that lasted 4 years but they where 1st class media and they where handled with extreme care
     
  5. arniebear

    arniebear Active member

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    From and article on DVD Longevity

     
  6. ScubaPete

    ScubaPete Senior member

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    Please note that this article was written about some media (cheapo stuff). I have no doubt that quality media such as TY, RICOH, Good Ritek, Verbatim etc, will last a lifetime. The crappy stuff might not last until the Acadamy Awards (Lol).

    My point, cheap media isn't cheap in the long run AND as my Buddy Jim pointed out, those that buy crap sem to fight for their right to backup Data on them blaming everything else for their failure EXCEPT the fact that their media has let them down with a "Thud" !

    my 2-cents


    Pete
     

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