High Resolution Audio

Discussion in 'AfterDawn feedback & suggestions' started by wilkes, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    I can't find any area on the boards that deals with hi res Audio, such as DVD-Audio and the unmentionable SACD. Maybe a section in the Audio boards would be good. This could cover such things as Authoring, file preparation, Surround techniques, DTS, DD, MLP and the general day to day pitfalls & excitement of these new formats.
    The possibilities are almost limitless, yet we see so very little about them.
    Please include this section, as I feel it would be of benefit to members by keeping them informed of the facts as opposed to the fictions which are being spread elsewhere.
     
    wilkes, Jun 26, 2003
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  2. cd-rw.org

    cd-rw.org Active member

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    Wilkes,

    Now this is a very good idea.

    Now the only obstacle in doing this that I don't think that Afterdawn / cd-rw staff have the required expertice in this matter, even though the subject is very interesting.

    You seem to have some knowledge in audio issues - I wonder if you could help us out in managing this kind of forum room?
     
    cd-rw.org, Jun 29, 2003
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  3. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Wilkes and Lasse, how do you guys feel about the 'unmentionable' SACD format?

    I've been doing an awful lot of reading on the subject this past week, and many, many people are finally getting some pretty good vibes about the format.

    [​IMG]

    As far as ripping, transferring, copying (backing-up), etc., we (the computer world) are pretty-much out of luck with this format though. It seems to be strictly a PLAYBACK-only deal, and current SACD or combo DVD/SACD players and changers, have *only* analogue outputs for the audio portion because, as I see it, the record-labels are near-paranoid about protecting the music from any kind of purely digital-extraction. I sense there will be NO audio digital-streams coming from any SACD player for some time to come (if ever). And I have yet to see even *one* piece of SACD-related software. The discs themselves are highly copy-protected. (Double-key encrypted; watermarked....)

    Having said that, the prices for sacd-compatible players have literally plummeted this past year, and combo dvd/dvd-a/sacd units can now be had for about a couple hundred bucks, which is a mere shadow of their former price.

    One of the audio magazines I have been reading for over 20 years (UHF; "Ultra High Fidelity"), now, after eons of (wisely) procrastinating, has only now "confidently" predicted, DVD-A=Betamax; SACD=VHS. In other words, SACD is now poised to overthrow DVD-A much as VHS overthrew Betamax.

    The owner of Opus3, a long-time audiophile label, one of the very first, now routinely makes SACD releases (has been for some time), and clearly feels that the sacd format is going to swamp DVD-A.

    Current estimates say that there are about 300 current DVD-A titles, compared to 800 titles for SACD, with many many more (sacd's) planned.

    There seems (finally) to be a determined committment from sacd's inventors (the veritable team of Sony/Philips), to get this format on the road in a BIG way. A HUGE number of new re-issues (treasured back-catalog items) are planned and are already in production.

    Rolling Stones, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd, Santana, Creedence Clearwater Revival, King Crimson, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Carole King, Boston ---- the *stuff* I was raised on is now being remastered in Hi-Res SACD, either Stereo and/or Multi-channel, and mostly in Hybrid format (sacd hi-res + red-book layers) for maximum compatibility. Speaking of which ....

    Apparently, many Rolling Stones albums, probably for carefully-planned promotional reasons, are now being issued as UNMARKED SACD Hybrid discs. (One sacd hi-res layer, and one red-book layer; thus playable on ANY machine.)

    There are those who have been warning us of their arrival. As unmarked SACD discs, cd-music buyers will one day soon suddenly discover they *already* have SACD content in their collections! The new unmarked Rolling Stones discs go for only $1 above the price of the ordinary music-cd versions.

    It's all very strange.

    Waddaya think? I read an in-depth review of Pink Floyd's newly-remastered, 30th-Anniversary multi-channel 'Dark Side Of The Moon' album which practically had the reviewer sobbing in audiophile bliss. (Sorry, I didn't save the link, but here's yet another review):

    http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviewsdvdasacd/pinkfloyddarksidesacd.html

    (But get this - the SOBs here locally, HMV Records), want $49.99 + tax for this title. (Insane!). With 15% local taxes, I'm looking at nearly $60 Canadian to buy this _one_ album locally from a retail shop. (It's available by mail-order for less than half that amount, shipping included). Even so, they are sold-out and have had to back-order.

    HMV is obviously gouging us _hugely_ right now, (the guy on the phone *reluctantly*, *slowly*, *hesitantly* admitted to me that their other sacd titles are mostly in the $40-$50 range), but if the crystal-ball soothsayers get their way, I think we're going to be looking at very comparable cd/sacd prices in the not too-distant future.

    Waddaya think about all this? (Thanks)

    -- Mike --

    [bold]addendum:[/bold] I'm terribly sorry cd-rw.org, I'm afraid I posted this message in the wrong section. (It belongs in the 'Audio' section). I'm afraid there's no way to for me to move this one message; I'd have to move the whole thread. Apologies.

     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2003
    A_Klingon, Aug 18, 2003
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  4. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    If you don't mind I'm going to take a day or two to get my thoughts together on this one, as there are so many factors at play.
    I'll post back here on around Thursday with my answers.
    See ya then.
     
    wilkes, Aug 18, 2003
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  5. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    You bet.

    There's a lot to think about. Not the least of which, is that if sacd catches on, we old-timers are back to square one in a sense - here we go 'round the mulberry bush attempting to rebuild our music libraries all over again. The record companies will be rolling in clover once again as we replace our Beatles' collection for the [bold]-nth[/bold] time. Vinyl, open reel, 8-track cartridge, audio cassette, compact disc, sacd - what can possibly be next????

    I think you'll find in your web-travels, wilkes, a lot of positive feeling about sacd, and not all of it is self-serving or promotional in nature.

    It may be that the huge multi-international-music-conglomerates see sacd as one of their last chances to recoup the losses they attribute to P2P, and all those pesky cd-burners and ripping softwares out there. SACD, at least right now, positively defies any attempt at backing-up OR user self-creation (you simply cannot compile your own 'greatest hits' compilation of sacd music in native sacd format.)

    Interesting times ahead.

    [​IMG]

     
    A_Klingon, Aug 18, 2003
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  6. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Okay, I think I've got my thoughts together on this now, so here goes.
    As far as any really audible differences between the two formats, in the real world it's "probably" nothing noticeable. As you already know, I'm fully feared up for DVD-A and this is the crux of the problem for me. Studios like mine are not going to be able to produce SACD on our own. The way it works is we send off our multichannel mixdowns as the usual PCM 24/96 files and these are converted to DSD for putting onto SACD. Does this not actually defeat the objective, if the much touted DSD is a simple conversion (or maybe not so simple!) from PCM?
    Also, DVD has a very large user base, who will no doubt sooner or later upgrade their players to the "universal" type which will play DVDA as well as DVDV discs. Currently Panasonic do one for £150, or there's the Limit I use for around £175/£200 and these prices will drop. I forsee home entertainment in the future all being dealt with from a single unit, or set of units, and factoring in the relative ease that PC owners can produce DVDA content as well as DVDV content will tip the balance in favour of DVDA.
    The biggest obstacle that still needs to be overcome to ensure DVD becoming the dominant format is the Universal disc being extremely hard tp produce in the real world, as most of the affordable DVDV tools are Abstraction layer programs, which although produce a perfectly good DVDV the VTS created is not a "legal" VTS for the purposes of a universal DVDA disc with VTS content for Dolby Digital and DTS files for people who do not have DVDA.
    I really don't think that copy protection is the issue, as DVDA does have very good copy protection. This, along with DVDV and SACD copy protection, will be broken if it hasn't already. Even if it doesn't I could take an SACD disc and hook up the analogue outputs to my DAW and re-digitise the content and burn to DVDA in as long as it takes to play the disc then burn the DVDA.
    Also, I wish I could find the link for you, but the CEO of Sony in Japan is apparently now saying that he doesn't see SACD becoming the dominant format either!
    The record companies are starting to get behind it too, with 3000 new titles planned for the next 12 months, an increase of huge proportions given that there are apparently only 500 currently available.
    Taking all these into consideration, we still have to convince the consumer of course, who will ultimately decide. My money - literally, to the tune of around £50000 is on DVDA. The deciding points are the huge customer base that already buys DVD's, and knows what they are, who will upgrade their systems to the universal players - just as soon as companies stop virtually giving away the older generation models that are not DVDA compatible, and the enormous market that is the computer users with Project and midrange studios wanting to get into SurroundSound and multichannel mixing.
    It's almost inevitable that Video material will get included on the discs as an added incentive to buy - something you cannot do with SACD.
    As a format though, I really don't have a problem with it.
    Finally, I've been asked to quote on 4 DVDA albums, with one definitely confirmed now. I've yet to even get an enquiry about SACD and don't actually know anyone who has! I believe, and I may well be overly cynical, that the SACD format only came about cos Sony/Philips, whilst being members of the DVD Forum, didn't want to pay the royalties. Philips have tried this before, as have Sony, with DCC and MiniDisc, and while DCC sank almost without trace, Minidisc can hardly be said to be a professional quality format IMO!
    As usual, Music Business politics are very underhand and murky.
    For me, the development of the double-sided CD/DVDA discs is also interesting - pity that they are just too thick at the moment.
    I honestly believe that DVDA has more potential and is more likely to survive in the long run.
    Check this link out
    http://dvdaudiodaily.com/cgi-bin/Fr...d-audio.releases.shtml&ConfigFile=FrameIt.cfg
    it appears that Sony Music are the _only_ major label to stick out for SACD against DVDA.
    also, for more, look http://www.dvdaudiodaily.com/
    http://www.digitalaudioguide.com/
    for a lot of positive DVDA related news.
    we wil see......
    DVDA is very cutting edge, but it will be the one.
     
    wilkes, Aug 20, 2003
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  7. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hello Wilkes.

    I hear you. And I haven't got a clue how it must feel having staked 50,000 pounds in a business. It scared the sh-- out of me just reading your words. I hold the studio work you do in the highest regard, and you have my respects. We (consumers) took a nose-dive in audio-fidelity when the cd was introduced. I have never heard a standard cd that could rival a decent vinyl pressing in *sheer musicality* when played back through a quality turntable/cartridge combination.

    The magazine I've referred to above, (UHF - Ultra High Fidelity) is the most honest, bull-shit-free audio publication I have ever read. The publication has lost mountains of cash because they refused to accept commercial ads that would in any way compromise their credibility, or committment to their loyal subscriber base, many of whom have been subscribers for over 20 years.

    Which is why I was so shocked at the Editor-&-Owner's ipso-facto statement that SACD is now the future. It is not like the editor (Gerrard Rejskind) to make such definitive statements. He has always erred on the side of caution. (More on this below).

    I don't know what and/or who to believe. I know I'm sick of red-book. I haven't heard REAL high-fidelity for years. The _tremendous_ emotional impact that music is capable of invoking (for me) is DEAD with red-book audio.

    The UHF website is here:

    http://www.uhfmag.com but please read on.....

    Portions of the magazine are available as free .pdf files. As a studio owner, I would urge you to download:

    http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue66/UHF66.zip

    I repeat, I still don't know which format is ultimately going to survive, but within that issue you will see the full Opus3 article I mentioned. It is entitled, "Opus 3 Goes SACD".

    Jan-Eric Persson, founder of one of the original audiophile record labels, pins his future on SACD ... we talk with him."

    Here's one question and answer from the article:

    UHF: We presume you're convinced that SACD will win the battle against DVD-Audio.

    Persson: Nobody can say this for sure, but I really must admit I am quite convinced that SACD will win. It's a better system in so many respects ... the reason I chose it even before I heard it was that it is backward-compatible.

    [I assume he is referring to the sacd hybrid discs.]

    As I mentioned above, I don't know why Gerrard Rejskind would make such a definitive statement to his subscribers (that SACD is the format of the future), unless he was awfully, _awfully_ sure of himself. He risks the wrath of a lot of people if he is wrong.

    Please don't accept this as gospel, but here is what he had to say in Issue # 67:

    "The war winds down.

    "No, I'm not referring to that little skirmish in Iraq. I'm talking serious hostilities: DVD-Audio versus SACD. A year ago it looked like the Mother of All Battles. Today? The troops of Sony and Philips are occupying the terrain. It's all over but the reconstruction.

    "What happened? Didn't DVD-Audio have a natural advantage, with some 160 companies behind it, versus only two for SACD? What about the claim that, within a year, all DVD video players would also read DVD-Audio? But it never happened, It seems that if you have 160 parents, none of them would take responsibility for feeding you ... Until now, we had been cautioning readers against investing money in what could turn out to be the sonic equivalent of Betamax. The question is now clear: DVD-A is Betamax, and SACD is VHS. The war is over."

    Since I can recall, this is the first time I have ever read such a definitive statement like this from Gerrard, without a convincing explanation from him as to why he feels so. Either he knows something we don't, or else he has a lot of crystal balls.

    Don't know where or when this is all going to end, Wilkes. I know this ..... I still have to sit on the fuc---g sidelines waiting for the record-label back-room politics to end. The smoke has not cleared yet, and I refuse to start investing in any format that is potentially headed for the trash-bin. As I mentioned before, spending $40-$50 per sacd release is crazy for something that might be dead this time next year.

    Damn, I'm depressed!!

    -- Mike --
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2003
    A_Klingon, Aug 21, 2003
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  8. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    I agree with you on that one. The only problem is that every time you play it, the sound quality lessons by a fraction due to the nature of the wear and tear. I personally have a system that would accept DVDA and feel it will probably be the main player in the future. My feeling is based on nothing more than a personal opinion. so who knows what way it will go. I'd hazard a guess that Wilkes does :)

    Good luck with the business Wilkes!
     
    Oriphus, Aug 21, 2003
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  9. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Mike.
    Nothing to really get depressed about IMO - apart from the waiting still isn't over.
    A couple of points. First, can I reiterate that every major record label except Sony Music has now come out in favour of DVDA in the form of a commitment to release back catalogue and new stuff on that format. Some will undoubtedly also go the SACD route too, but who knows.
    Secondly, interesting point about Betamax/VHS, as we all know what the better format actually was! minor gaffe there I feel.
    The big problem I have with SACD is the fact that all the DSD streams are "conversions" from PCM, except the extrem few, and I've not seen any yet, that are actually recorded like this in the first place. Check out the Prism DSD addons for ProTools - they convert PCM to DSD. Where's the advantage?
    Also, the player situation is one for concern. I still think that the problem lies with the resellers dumping old stock on the market at knock down prices, instead of selling the current Universal players that will deal with DVDA. A lot, in my experience most, of store sales staff also have _absolutely_no_idea_whatsoever_ what they are talking about with surround and high resolution audio either!
    The amount of people that think DVDV is the same as DVDA because it has a Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 soundtrack on it is positively frightening! Most of them haven't a clue about high resolution audio, and most of them don't even seem to know it exists.
    We really need to get the buying public aware of the differences.
    As a final note, I also believe personally that a lot of CD's problems are stemming from the insane quest for "ever louder" pressings. Take a current CD and digitally extract the audio into an app like WaveLab or SoundForge or similar, and see just how badly the waveform is clipped! It's a crime against music IMO, and the end result is CD's that have about 2dB dynamic range, that sound at best very bad, hurt your ears at most volumes and are very fatiguing to listen to.
    In general, I feel that 16 bits isn't enough to capture all the subtleties of Audio and we need the 24 bits that DVDA/SACD offers. I also feel that 96KHz is more than enough in the sample rate area too - there's a paper by the AES that says 75KHz is sufficient. 192 and 384 is certainly overkill, and people who honestly think they can hear any difference above 96KHz should probably contact the Guinness book of Records as well as York University as there will be people there who will want to speak to them!
    Still, whatever the outcome, the serious listener can only benefit as long as we can educate people. these forums and boards are a great place for starting this process, as they already dispel a lot of the myths, and there are certainly enough of them where digital audio is concerned.

    PS - I still think a high resolution discussion board would be really cool. We could begin the process there.
     
    wilkes, Aug 21, 2003
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  10. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi guys.

    I don't doubt your word, wilkes, (you would know better than I), when you say The big problem I have with SACD is the fact that all the DSD streams are "conversions" from PCM ... [they] are actually recorded like this in the first place.

    Which is why I'm confused to read (Opus 3 article), I stopped recording in analogue at the beginning of 2000. I got new digital equipment, recording in pure Direct Stream Digital. Now I record on hard disc.

    (Hmmmmm...."recording in pure DSD")

    If I'm not mistaken (I often am), I *think* I was reading some blurb on the MFSL (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs) website that they are doing all their SACD mastering _direct_ to DSD as well, (although they have some confusing name for their proprietary process). Often their sources are from the original multi-track analog tapes played back on a modified Studer machine.

    But I agree, I believe we could use a section here at a/D / cd-rw.org to learn more about these things. One format or another, one way or another, Hi-Res Audio is on it's way.

    Lasse <cd-rw.org> (who is only pretending not to read this thread), would be a good fellow to initiate a space, methinks.

    On a lighter more off-note spin, ....

    WoW! Don't ask me how he is doing it, but using a standard sacd player, this enterprising young university student is tapping right into a direct DSD bitstream, and converting to PCM for transfer to red-book cd. (Bypassing the analog domain entirely, which is a "No-No" in Sony/Philip's book.)

    [​IMG]

    His explanation:

    As a part of my senior capstone project for my CS/CE degrees, we're working on a device that'll convert a DSD signal so a SACD can be copied to a normal CD. This may or may not be legal under the DMCA, so that makes it even more fun! The project is FINALLY coming to fruition as you can see by this ugly, hairy mess...

    Already the hacking has begun! (Ya gotta luv it). :)

    -- Klingy --


     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2003
    A_Klingon, Aug 21, 2003
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  11. A_Klingon

    A_Klingon Moderator Staff Member

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    [bold] Yikes !!!! [/bold]

    I had no idea the pic was so large!!!
    (Sorry bout that).

    Time for a dedicated Hi-Res section I guess!

    -- Mike --

    (Don't you just hate having to use the lateral scroll-bar in these threads?)
     
    A_Klingon, Aug 21, 2003
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  12. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    Mike - looks interesting!
    Please don't get me wrong, you CAN record in pure DSD. The machines are a tad on the pricey side though, don't have a price on me now but it's 6/7 figures a throw!
    The hacking began a lomg time ago - I could take an SACD, hook up the analogue outputs to my ADC and record the streams directly into my DAW for conversion to DVDA, and I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference between them. I may even go buy an SACD player just to test this one out. Even borrow it - a coproducer of mine has one of the much touted Sony systems with the satellite speakers/sub & SACD player, & he reckons that my DVDA knocks it into a cocked hat, which made me feel a LOT better, I can tell you.
    cd-rw.org mentions in his post on this thread that I may help out on a hi-res board. I'd love to do this.
    Finally, I'm gonna get the textbooks out and send you some info on exactly how DSD works & differs from PCM. Do you have an email address, as it could be a bit bulky for this thread.
    If there's anything I can do, just ask!
    my email should be on my profile. In case it's not, I'll send a PM with contact details.
     
    wilkes, Aug 21, 2003
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  13. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Ones things for sure, if we do get a High Resolution Audio section here, there are two in house experts on the matter.

    Thanks guys, i've read through these (long) posts and have learnt a bit on High Res Audio already.
     
    Oriphus, Aug 21, 2003
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  14. cd-rw.org

    cd-rw.org Active member

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    cd-rw.org, Aug 21, 2003
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