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How Many Times Can a Disk Be Rewritten Before Loss of Quality?

Discussion in 'DVD±R media' started by Hellok, Jan 24, 2010.

  1. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Hi,

    I've been trying to get a DVD burned. I used ImgBurn to write A VIDEO_TS folder and AUDIO_TS folder that I prepared in Sony DVD Architect 3.0 to a DVD+RW disk. I couldn't do it in architect for some reason. It seemed to be successful in ImgBurn but I could never get through the verification statues without getting read errors. I played the disk anyway and it finally worked. It didn't look great on my computer. It was kind of jittery. I had made several attempts at burning to the dvd already.

    Now my main question: How many times can I write to a DVD+RW disk before there is a noticeable loss of quality. And what does a read error mean? My disk still played through.
     
  2. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The specification for rewritable DVD+RW/-RW claims 1,000 write/rewrite cycles, but 600 seems to be more common. These tests arre conducted on a drive that can write to the disc well in the first place, and the same drive is used over and over again.

    The real world difficulty with rewritable discs is that different drives can put slightly different patterns on the disc, and that can cause premature errors. A disc error is when the drive pickup head cannot be sure that the signal it receives is accurate for a wide number of reasons: too weak a signal, too much noise, mistracking, signal mistiming ("jitter"), information that the error correction scheme says must be errors, bursts of errors, and so forth. All discs produce errors--there is no such thing as a perfect disc. But if the rate of errors is in the hundreds, a drive can no longer keep up with error correction.
     
  3. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Thanks, so would you advise ignoring the verify feature? I've read many posts on other forums by people saying they don't trust verify. Do you know anything about a session not closing in ImgBurn. I know this isn't an ImgBurn forum but I figured I'd ask while I'm at it. Also, I've recently been told that write once media is better quality wise than rewritable. Significantly?
     
  4. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The verify is another tool that gives some evidence of the quality of the recording. Real test equipment starts at $50,000 (Expert) and runs as high as $250,000 (AudioDev). A freebie utility can only approximate what test equipment can provide, and it only applies to the non-calibrated drive being used; but it can be helpful sometimes in isolating troublesome discs or recordings.

    I don't know enough about ImgBurn.

    Write-once media are different from rewritable, but in terms of quality one judges the performance figures and the adherence to specifications to produce that performance. In terms of performance, rewritable media have significantly lower reflectivity, but firmware adjusts for the difference. In terms of production uniformity and adherence to specifications, rewritable media are not much different from write-once media except that after multiple write/rewrite cycles, rewritable media increase in jitter. The biggest problem with rewritable media is the lack of standards for formatting and the incompatibility of packet-writing formats that have given them a bad name. In some ways rewritable media are better than dye-based media because they are susceptible only to high levels of heat and humidity while dye-based media are susceptible to the same conditions plus the effects of light.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  5. scum101

    scum101 Guest

    just burn it.. if it works, great.. if it fails get another disk.. sheesh.. like it matters.

    btw.. thanks Joe for that very interesting read.. still digesting the info.. a few eye openers in there about the junk manufacturers consider acceptable for public consumption :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2010
  6. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    @ scum101: It kind of does matter. On one hand you're right, but I've been working on this project for a long time as a gift. I haven't had a one hundred percent successful burn. It plays eventually, but some of the players I put it in take a while to read it and it looks like crap sooo. I don't know enough about the different types of media and burning them. So I asked.

    Thanks Joe
     
  7. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    Hellok--

    You are welcome. The reading material scum101 referred to was a piece I've found to be very complete and understandable:



    The section on CD-RW is an example of how messed up manufacturers have made rewritable media. There are at least four different, incompatible speed ranges for CD-RWs; and consumers have avoided them in good part because they are so hard to understand. As for the reliability of rewritable media, the DVD+RW Alliance that developed both DVD+RW and DVD+R initially believed that they only needed to provide a DVD+RW disc to compete with DVD-R. They saw no need for a DVD+R dye-based version, and that's why their logo still says "DVD+RW." Public perceptions and cost savings, not any technical reason, forced them to introduce the DVD+R disc about 6 months after DVD+RW appeared.




     
  8. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    If you want to give it as a gift, then burn it on some decent DVD-/+R(Verbatim for example, great compatibility), to make sure you don't give a crappy gift. IMO, DVD+RW should only be used for testing, not something you would want to keep(for all the reasons JoeR mentioned, and the symptoms you're seeing)..
    If the movie looks good on your PC, burn on some quality discs and problem solved.
     
  9. scum101

    scum101 Guest

    It does depend on the bitrate and the length..

    Anything over 2 1/2 hours will show a fair amount of quality loss, especially in dark scenes or on fast motion.

    You can't really tell what something will eventually look like on a computer.. but rw disks aren't great. I use them for sneakernet data transfer .. sticking to reasonable quality -r disks for customers.

    +r is technically superior, but there are still a lot of players which just don't like them. That's why I only use - disks for the supplies (oh yeah.. people say bitset + disks to -rom, but that doesn't help if an older player point blank refuses to see the disk in the first place.. all players can handle -r disks)

    My rules are.. 2 1/2 hours maximum run time.. over that I use a d/l disk and try to arrange the layer break on a scene change. Should not be possible to tell any difference from the source, but video is like audio.. garbage in - garbage out as they say.
     
  10. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    I do have a "special" player(a Sanyo DVD/VCR combo...will not play DVD-R or DVD+R, unless booktyped to ROM.
     
  11. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    @ cyprusrom: Yeah, Verbatim is what I've heard I actually just called best buy this morning to see if they had any in stock. Great compatibility as far as burning or playing or both? I'm just debating over + or - R.

    @ JoeRyan: It's too bad there is so much crap out there. I'm just glad I'm realizing it now before I got too carried away with making dvds and settling for poor quality.

    @ scum101: Thanks for the tips on time length. I will probably be encountering that in the future, but the project I have to burn right now is really short. So I've been debating the +R or -R, because like you said, +Rs are superior (that's what i've heard others say) but how so? Do they just look and sound better? I want the best, referring now both to playability and overall quality. So i want + R but I'm afraid it won't play well. Is the quality difference minute enough that you think it's safer to stay with -R? I caught that you use -R for your customers and stuff, but what would you use for your personal use, if you were to know that it would play on your machine? Do you sacrifice universality for quality? Sorry, I'm getting a little picky about it i guess.
     
  12. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    You will not see any visual quality difference between -R and +R. You should only buy
    +R if your burner is capable of booktyping, otherwise you'll not have any benefit(and the benefit would not be in video quality, just compatibility). I would suggest you go with -R, is your safest bet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  13. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Thanks a lot guys,
     
  14. rick5446

    rick5446 Guest

    It seems to me, as I've discovered. That after about 10 to 12 burns on a Rewritable, it's good to do a thorough erase which brings the surface pretty much back to original. I've noticed this stops any type of skipping or stalling in my DVD Players
     
  15. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    That's good to know, thanks.
     
  16. lordsmurf

    lordsmurf Regular member

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    Skipping is often an issue of the player, not so much the discs. But that workaround does work. The other option is a new player. Philips are really good with RW's.

    DVD+RW tend to die MUCH FASTER than DVD-RW do. I've seen many DVD+RW dead before being used, craters visibly formed in the phase change materials.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010

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