I HAD POSTED MY LOG BEFOR STILL NEVER FOUND OUT WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE BURNER I WAS USING MAXELL DVD-R BUT WAS GETTING ERROR MSG CHANGED MY MEDIA TO OFFICE DEPOT DVD-R 16X 4.7 GB AND STILL DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH THE CD BEING 16X CAUSE I HAVE USED THIS KIND BEFOR BUT 8X BUT I DO HAVE A 16 X BURNER BUT I AM ONLY TRIYNG TO BURN AT 2X OR 4X AND IT HAS WORKED BEFOR HERE IS MY LOG Windows XP 5.1 IA32 WinAspi: File 'Wnaspi32.dll': Ver=4.60 (1021), size=45056 bytes, created 9/10/1999 12:06:00 PM ahead WinASPI: File 'C:\Program Files\Ahead\nero\Wnaspi32.dll': Ver=2.0.1.68, size=160016 bytes, created 7/22/2004 5:33:44 PM Nero version: 6.3.1.25 (Nero Express) Recorder: <MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2> Version: 1.F0 - HA 1 TA 1 - 6.3.1.25 Adapter driver: <atapi> HA 1 Drive buffer : 2048kB Bus Type : default (0) -> ATAPI, detected: ATAPI CD-ROM: <HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B>Version: C104 - HA 1 TA 0 - 6.3.1.25 Adapter driver: <atapi> HA 1 === Scsi-Device-Map === DiskPeripheral : IC35L090AVV207-0 atapi Port 0 ID 0 DMA: On CdRomPeripheral : HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B atapi Port 1 ID 0 DMA: On CdRomPeripheral : MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 atapi Port 1 ID 1 DMA: Off === CDRom-Device-Map === HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480 D: CDRom0 MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 E: CDRom1 ======================= AutoRun : 1 Excluded drive IDs: WriteBufferSize: 83886080 (0) Byte ShowDrvBufStat : 0 BUFE : 0 Physical memory : 1022MB (1046528kB) Free physical memory: 657MB (673360kB) Memory in use : 35 % Uncached PFiles: 0x0 Use Static Write Speed Table: 0 Use Inquiry : 1 Global Bus Type: default (0) Check supported media : Disabled (0) 1.10.2006 UDF/ISO compilation 4:02:37 PM #1 Phase 112 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 DVD-Video files reallocation started 4:02:37 PM #2 Phase 114 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 DVD-Video files reallocation completed (no file modified) 4:02:37 PM #3 Text 0 File Isodoc.cpp, Line 6083 Iso document burn settings ------------------------------------------ Determine maximum speed : FALSE Simulate : FALSE Write : TRUE Finalize CD : TRUE Multisession : FALSE Burning mode : DAO Mode : 1 ISO Level : 1 (Max. of 11 = 8 + 3 char) Character set : ISO 9660 Joliet :FALSE Allow pathdepth more than 8 directories : FALSE Allow more than 255 characters in path : FALSE Write ISO9660 ;1 file extensions : TRUE 4:02:37 PM #4 Phase 111 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 DVD-Video files sorted 4:02:37 PM #5 Text 0 File Reader.cpp, Line 126 Reader running 4:02:37 PM #6 ISO9660GEN -11 File geniso.cpp, Line 3899 First writeable address = 0 (0x00000000) 4:02:37 PM #7 ISO9660GEN -11 File geniso.cpp, Line 3899 First writeable address = 0 (0x00000000) 4:02:37 PM #8 Text 0 File Burncd.cpp, Line 3152 Turn on Disc-at-once, using DVD media 4:02:38 PM #9 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 247 Last possible write address on media: 2298495 (510:46.45, 4489MB) Last address to be written: 2286127 (508:01.52, 4465MB) 4:02:38 PM #10 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 259 Write in overburning mode: NO (enabled: CD) 4:02:38 PM #11 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 2162 Recorder: MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2, Media type: DVD-R Disc Manufacturer: RITEKF - 1 Disc Application Code: 64, Disc Physical Code: 193 4:02:38 PM #12 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 420 >>> Protocol of DlgWaitCD activities: <<< ========================================= 4:02:38 PM #13 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 813 Setup items (after recorder preparation) 0: TRM_DATA_MODE1 (CTransferItem) 2 indices, index0 (150) not provided original disc pos #0 + 2286128 (2286128) = #2286128/508:1.53 relocatable, disc pos for caching/writing not required/required, no patch infos -> TRM_DATA_MODE1, 2048, config 0, wanted index0 0 blocks, length 2286128 blocks [MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 ] -------------------------------------------------------------- 4:02:38 PM #14 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 984 Prepare recorder [MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 ] for write in CUE-sheet-DAO DAO infos: ========== MCN: "" TOCType: 0x00; Session Closed, disc fixated Tracks 1 to 1: 1: TRM_DATA_MODE1, 2048/0x00, FilePos 0 0 4681990144, ISRC "" DAO layout: =========== __Start_|____Track_|_Idx_|_RecDep_|_CtrlAdr_ 0 | lead-in | 0 | 0x00 | 0x41 0 | 1 | 0 | 0x00 | 0x41 0 | 1 | 1 | 0x00 | 0x41 2286128 | lead-out | 1 | 0x00 | 0x41 4:02:38 PM #15 Phase 24 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 Caching of files started 4:02:38 PM #16 Text 0 File Burncd.cpp, Line 4163 Cache writing successful. 4:02:38 PM #17 Phase 25 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 Caching of files completed 4:02:38 PM #18 Phase 36 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 Burn process started at 2.4x (3,324 KB/s) 4:02:38 PM #19 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 2344 Verifying disc position of item 0 (relocatable, disc pos, no patch infos, orig at #0): write at #0 4:02:38 PM #20 Text 0 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1713 Set remaining time: 23:33,799 (1413799ms) -> OK 4:02:38 PM #21 Text 0 File DVDR.cpp, Line 2000 Recording mode: Sequential Recording Mode 4:02:38 PM #22 Text 0 File Mmc.cpp, Line 20660 Set BUFE: supported -> ON 4:02:38 PM #23 Text 0 File DVDR.cpp, Line 2141 Start write address at LBA 0 DVD high compatibility mode: Yes 4:02:38 PM #24 Text 0 File Cdrdrv.cpp, Line 8230 ---- DVD Structure: Physical Format Information (00h) ---- Layer: 0, Address: 0 (0 h), AGID: 0; Length: 2050 Book Type: DVD-R (2), Part Version: 5 Disc Size: 120 mm, Maximum Rate: <not specified> (F h) Number of Layers: 1, Track Path: Parallel Track Path (PTP), Layer Type: recordable Linear Density: 0,267 um/bit, Track Density: 0,74 um/track Starting Physical Sector Number of Data Area: 30000 h (DVD-ROM, DVD-R/-RW, DVD+R/+RW) End Physical Sector Number of Data Area: 26127F h End Sector Number in Layer 0: 0 h Data in Burst Cutting Area (BCA) does not exist Start sector number of the current Border-Out: 2FE10 h Start sector number of the next Border-In: 2FFA0 h Media Specific [16..63]: 00 60 00 10 20 30 40 50 - 00 00 00 21 00 00 00 00 .`...0@P...!.... 00 02 FE 10 00 02 FF A0 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 4:02:38 PM #25 SCSI -1046 File Cdrdrv.cpp, Line 1191 SCSI Exec, HA 1, TA 1, LUN 0 Status: 0x04 (0x01, SCSI_ERR) HA-Status 0x00 (0x00, OK) TA-Status 0x02 (0x01, SCSI_TASTATUS_CHKCOND) Sense Key: 0x05 (KEY_ILLEGAL_REQUEST) Sense Code: 0x30 Sense Qual: 0x05 CDB Data: 0x53 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x22 0xE2 0x30 0x00 0x00 0x00 Sense Data: 0x70 0x00 0x05 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x0A 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x30 0x05 4:02:38 PM #26 CDR -1046 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 1614 Illegal disc 4:02:38 PM #27 TRANSFER -27 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 1614 Could not perform start of Disc-at-once 4:02:38 PM #28 Text 0 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1713 Set remaining time: 0:00,000 (0ms) -> OK 4:02:38 PM #29 Phase 38 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1855 Burn process failed at 2.4x (3,324 KB/s) Existing drivers: File 'Drivers\ASPI32.SYS': Ver=4.60 (1021), size=25244 bytes, created 9/10/1999 12:06:00 PM File 'Drivers\PXHELP20.SYS': Ver=2.03.18a, size=20576 bytes, created 9/23/2004 2:03:00 AM (Prassi/Veritas driver for win 2K) File 'Drivers\InCDfs.SYS': Ver=4, 3, 0, 5, size=93440 bytes, created 9/13/2004 11:54:06 AM (InCD4 driver for win NT/2K/XP) File 'Drivers\InCDpass.SYS': Ver=4, 3, 0, 5, size=28672 bytes, created 9/13/2004 11:54:46 AM (InCD4 driver for win NT/2K/XP) File 'Drivers\InCDrec.SYS': Ver=4, 3, 0, 5, size=7680 bytes, created 9/13/2004 11:58:10 AM (InCD4 driver for win NT/2K/XP) File 'Drivers\atapi.sys': Ver=5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158), size=95360 bytes, created 8/3/2004 9:59:42 PM (Adapter driver for rec)
Hi FELIXMM Here's some suggestions: Update Nero to 6.6.0.18. Here are some links: Package 1 http://httpdl1.usw.nero.com/software/Nero6/Nero-6.6.0.18_no_yt.exe Package 2 (recode & vision) http://httpdl1.usw.nero.com/software/Nero6/NVE-3.1.0.21_no_yt.exe Your drive can use a firmware update - 3.F3 is the latest. This may help it w/ the Office Depot media made by Ritek & the illegal disc error. Scroll do to your drive for the download. http://www.mdmm.com/optical_storage_drivers.php If this doesn't do the trick then switch to Verbatim or made in Japan only Sony or Fuji. Turn DMA back on - this could be causing a problem too. Here's a link: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/260038 Nero's InCD can cause problems - if you're not using it uninstall it and run the clean tool. http://ww2.nero.com/nero6/enu/InCD_CleanTool.html Try these and keep us posted!
THANKS FOR THE HELP DO YOU THINK IT MAY BE BECAUSE THE DISC ARE 16X IN THE PAST I THINK I MAY HAVE USED 8X
Could be - your drive's firmware may have been more updated w/ the 8x media id codes. This is where the firmware update may help. Best to keep it up to date. One thing it does it 'flashes' the drive w/ the media codes esp the newer media like 16x so the drive can have the correct write strategy. Otherwise it will use a generic one which may not work. Hence illegal disc error to name one error. So try the suggestions above & keep us posted! (oh & watch the caps - it's like shouting + against forum rules)
i did the updating now i don't have the drop down listing of the nero box i have to look for it in the files the original icon was replaced with nero showtime
hi one small thing...burning 16x media at to slow a speed can induce errors, much better to burn at around 8x. @ hi karen
Hey geoff Very good point!! Txs for pointing that out! @FELIXMM Bit confused on your last post - which drop down box? The user interface didn't changed much from what I remember between 6.3.& 6.6
instead of the popup for nero when i clicked on the nero icon now it just says nero showtime and takes me to that not to choose what type of burning i want to do i also did most of what you said updated it tried to turn on dma mode but here is my log Windows XP 5.1 IA32 WinAspi: File 'Wnaspi32.dll': Ver=4.60 (1021), size=45056 bytes, created 9/10/1999 12:06:00 PM ahead WinASPI: File 'C:\Program Files\Ahead\Nero\Wnaspi32.dll': Ver=2.0.1.74, size=164112 bytes, created 10/26/2004 6:35:34 PM Nero Version: 6.6.0.18 Internal Version: 6, 6, 0, 18e (Nero Express) Recorder: <MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2> Version: 1.F0 - HA 1 TA 1 - 6.6.0.18 Adapter driver: <atapi> HA 1 Drive buffer : 2048kB Bus Type : default (0) -> ATAPI, detected: ATAPI CD-ROM: <HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B>Version: C104 - HA 1 TA 0 - 6.6.0.18 Adapter driver: <atapi> HA 1 === Scsi-Device-Map === DiskPeripheral : IC35L090AVV207-0 atapi Port 0 ID 0 DMA: On CdRomPeripheral : HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B atapi Port 1 ID 0 DMA: On CdRomPeripheral : MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 atapi Port 1 ID 1 DMA: Off === CDRom-Device-Map === HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B D: CDRom0 MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2 E: CDRom1 ======================= AutoRun : 1 Excluded drive IDs: WriteBufferSize: 83886080 (0) Byte ShowDrvBufStat : 0 BUFE : 0 Physical memory : 1022MB (1046528kB) Free physical memory: 680MB (696572kB) Memory in use : 33 % Uncached PFiles: 0x0 Use Inquiry : 1 Global Bus Type: default (0) Check supported media : Disabled (0) 1.10.2006 UDF/ISO compilation 6:14:48 PM #1 Phase 112 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 DVD-Video files reallocation started 6:14:48 PM #2 Phase 114 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 DVD-Video files reallocation completed (no file modified) 6:14:48 PM #3 Text 0 File Isodoc.cpp, Line 6359 UDF document burn settings ------------------------------------------ Determine maximum speed : FALSE Simulate : FALSE Write : TRUE Finalize CD : TRUE Multisession : FALSE Burning mode : DAO Mode : 1 UDF Mode : UDF/ISO bridge UDF Revision : 1.02 UDF Partition Type : physical ISO Level : 1 (Max. of 11 = 8 + 3 char) Character set : ISO 9660 Joliet :FALSE Allow pathdepth more than 8 directories : FALSE Allow more than 255 characters in path : FALSE Write ISO9660 ;1 file extensions : TRUE 6:14:48 PM #4 Phase 111 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 DVD-Video files sorted 6:14:48 PM #5 Text 0 File Reader.cpp, Line 127 Reader running 6:14:48 PM #6 ISO9660GEN -11 File geniso.cpp, Line 3309 First writeable address = 0 (0x00000000) 6:14:48 PM #7 ISO9660GEN -11 File geniso.cpp, Line 3309 First writeable address = 0 (0x00000000) 6:14:49 PM #8 Text 0 File Burncd.cpp, Line 3233 Turn on Disc-At-Once, using DVD media 6:14:49 PM #9 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 270 Last possible write address on media: 2298495 (510:46.45, 4489MB) Last address to be written: 684591 (152:07.66, 1337MB) 6:14:49 PM #10 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 282 Write in overburning mode: NO (enabled: CD) 6:14:49 PM #11 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 2483 Recorder: MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2, Media type: DVD-R Disc Manufacturer: RITEKF - 1 Disc Application Code: 64, Disc Physical Code: 193 6:14:49 PM #12 Text 0 File DlgWaitCD.cpp, Line 448 >>> Protocol of DlgWaitCD activities: <<< ========================================= 6:14:49 PM #13 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 838 Setup items (after recorder preparation) 0: TRM_DATA_MODE1 () 2 indices, index0 (150) not provided original disc pos #0 + 684592 (684592) = #684592/152:7.67 relocatable, disc pos for caching/writing not required/ required, no patch infos -> TRM_DATA_MODE1, 2048, config 0, wanted index0 0 blocks, length 684592 blocks [MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2] -------------------------------------------------------------- 6:14:49 PM #14 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 1051 Prepare recorder [MAD DOG MD-16XDVD9A2] for write in CUE-sheet-DAO DAO infos: ========== MCN: "" TOCType: 0x00; Session Closed, disc fixated Tracks 1 to 1: 1: TRM_DATA_MODE1, 2048/0x00, FilePos 0 0 1402044416, ISRC "" DAO layout: =========== __Start_|____Track_|_Idx_|_CtrlAdr_|_RecDep__________ 0 | lead-in | 0 | 0x41 | 0x00 0 | 1 | 0 | 0x41 | 0x00 0 | 1 | 1 | 0x41 | 0x00 684592 | lead-out | 1 | 0x41 | 0x00 6:14:49 PM #15 Phase 24 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 Caching of files started 6:14:49 PM #16 Text 0 File Burncd.cpp, Line 4122 Cache writing successful. 6:14:49 PM #17 Phase 25 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 Caching of files completed 6:14:49 PM #18 Phase 36 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 Burn process started at 2.4x (3,324 KB/s) 6:14:49 PM #19 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 2661 Verifying disc position of item 0 (relocatable, disc pos, no patch infos, orig at #0): write at #0 6:14:49 PM #20 Text 0 File DVDR.cpp, Line 2571 Recording mode: Sequential Recording Mode 6:14:49 PM #21 Text 0 File Mmc.cpp, Line 21774 Set BUFE: Buffer underrun protection -> ON 6:14:49 PM #22 Text 0 File DVDR.cpp, Line 2726 Start write address at LBA 0 DVD high compatibility mode: Yes 6:14:49 PM #23 Text 0 File Cdrdrv.cpp, Line 8892 ---- DVD Structure: Physical Format Information (00h) ---- Layer: 0, Address: 0 (0 h), AGID: 0; Length: 2050 Book Type: DVD-R (2), Part Version: 2.0x (5), Extended Part Version: 2.1 (33) Disc Size: 120 mm, Maximum Rate: <not specified> (F h) Number of Layers: 1, Track Path: Parallel Track Path (PTP), Layer Type: recordable Linear Density: 0,267 um/bit, Track Density: 0,74 um/track Starting Physical Sector Number of Data Area: 30000 h (DVD-ROM, DVD-R/-RW, DVD+R/+RW) End Physical Sector Number of Data Area: 26127F h End Sector Number in Layer 0: 0 h (LBN: FFFD0000 h, 4193920 MB) Data in Burst Cutting Area (BCA) does not exist Start sector number of the current Border-Out: 2FE10 h Start sector number of the next Border-In: 2FFA0 h Media Specific [16..63]: 00 60 00 10 20 30 40 50 - 00 00 00 21 00 00 00 00 .`...0@P...!.... 00 02 FE 10 00 02 FF A0 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 6:14:49 PM #24 SCSI -1046 File Cdrdrv.cpp, Line 1182 SCSI Exec, HA 1, TA 1, LUN 0 Status: 0x04 (0x01, SCSI_ERR) HA-Status 0x00 (0x00, OK) TA-Status 0x02 (0x01, SCSI_TASTATUS_CHKCOND) Sense Key: 0x05 (KEY_ILLEGAL_REQUEST) Sense Code: 0x30 Sense Qual: 0x05 CDB Data: 0x53 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x0A 0x72 0x30 0x00 0x00 0x00 Sense Data: 0x70 0x00 0x05 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x0A 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x30 0x05 6:14:49 PM #25 CDR -1046 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 1778 Illegal disc 6:14:49 PM #26 TRANSFER -27 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 1778 Could not perform start of Disc-at-once 6:14:49 PM #27 Phase 38 File dlgbrnst.cpp, Line 1832 Burn process failed at 2.4x (3,324 KB/s) Existing drivers: File 'Drivers\ASPI32.SYS': Ver=4.60 (1021), size=25244 bytes, created 9/10/1999 12:06:00 PM File 'Drivers\PXHELP20.SYS': Ver=2.03.18a, size=20576 bytes, created 9/23/2004 2:03:00 AM (Prassi/Veritas driver for win 2K) File 'Drivers\atapi.sys': Ver=5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158), size=95360 bytes, created 8/3/2004 9:59:42 PM (Adapter driver for rec)
Ok still need to update the drive's firmware to the one linked above. DMA is still off - did you uninstall the ide driver then reboot? Now for Nero do you see a 'NeroSmartStart' icon on your desktop?
no there is no nero smart start con and i borred a different disk from my neighbor it was an 8x dvd and tried to burn and it worked why can't i burn to the 16x disk now im stuck with alot of disk i can't use
Do the firmware update for the Maddog burner - that may do the trick for these 16x media. It's pretty easy to update usually & doesn't take very long. If you need help updating it let us know. Try that and let us know. During the install usually by default Nero will have options checked to have smartstart show as a desktop icon, etc. You can go to program files>ahead>nero smartstart. Right click on NeroSmartStart icon in this folder. Click 'create shortcut' then drag the short cut to your desktop.
thanks for the advise when i looked at the info on updating that firmware it is telling me to save it to a floppy disk and then boot the comp from the disk but i do not have a floppy drive on my computer so i tried to use the file extraction but how will i know if it updated it ...
You can check that in Nero. In smartstart click on NeroTool>Info Tool. Have the MadDog drive selected in the drop down then click on the drive tab. There is a field there that will list the current firmware version of the drive. ] What does it have listed?
Okay it didn't take. Here's a direct download from MadDog's site: http://www.mdmm.com/drivers/OpticalDrives/16XDVD9A2_FW_3F3.exe It's an .exe file. Don't have any blanks in the drive and no other programs running. Keep the power on. Download it - double click on it - make sure the drive is selected. Once done updating reboot and check Nero again for the firmware version.
a thanks for the help on the burn got it to take and is now working what would be faster the going thru dvd shrink i here tells of 30-45 min completion is this a myth...?
Good - glad to hear you got it updated and it's burning the discs. Check the link for Maddog ever so often for more updates. Depending on your pc specs, compression etc. - 30-45 mins w/ Shrink is about right. What programs are you using now? Shrink can't handle the newer copy protections so you'd need to rip w/DVD Fab Decrypter (free) 1st or run AnyDVD (free 21 day trial) in the background w/ Shrink. Still need to get the burner back in DMA if it's not - it's in PIO mode which is much slower and will slow things down.
yea but i have tryed three times to change it but it still shows it is not but no 1hr to 2 is how long it takes me to complete...im going straight thru shrink is it poss my burner can not be changed...?
The drive being in PIO mode is making the time 1-2 hours. No it can be changed we just need to find why it won't go back into DMA Mode . Use this guide and try one more time: http://home.comcast.net/~bbmayo/checking DMA.pdf After you try again and reboot then go to NeroToolKit>InfoTool again and go to the configuration tab. It will show if it went back to DMA. Will be listed as DMA on. If that doesn't do it - check your ide connections on the drive and make sure it's secure. We can start there - you may have a connection that's loose or going bad.
