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Is Shrink too slow?

Discussion in 'DVD Shrink forum' started by sean5775, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. mdinap

    mdinap Member

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    Sean 5775

    DO NOT GET THE SERVICE PACK. I installed it in my computer and the whole thing is all messed up now. The times are slow again, my whole computer is running slow again and its taking me forever to navigate my computer with the simple things i want to do, like opening a web browser, and microsoft word. On saturday im going to be spending all day fixing this computer and trying new things to make this work faster. Saturday night i will post my results of what happened. Talk to you then.
     
  2. mdinap

    mdinap Member

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    Alright i tryed everything i could think of. Defrag, clean-up, virus protection, ad-aware, spyware, XP self fix, upgraded memory to 512k, closed all unnecessary programs upon start-up, and removed all unneeded programs from the hard drive. I am at 82% CPU usage and I still have 30GB free space from a 60GB hard drive. All my efforts have failed. At this point I am willing to try any ideas anyone has got?
     
  3. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    My room is back together... Well, I'm not sure which things you tried so far, but I was hoping to eliminate the fact that it might be the burner, or the rest of the computer (or software), by trying to move the burner to the other computer, or try a new one... We know that your computer can backup quickly because you saw it happen. The thing that really would get me would be if it was intermittent hardware failures in either the motherboard or burner. If it's still hooked up the same way on the cables that did the best, then you have to wonder why it would 1st improve then change back. But not to steer you down the wrong path, again it could be settings in software. But for example, if you put the burner in a 2nd computer and it was slow that would make you wonder about the burner. Or if fast, then you'd be more sure it was in the 1st computer. And if you couldn't put it in another computer, then the other choice is to try another burner of a different brand and see if your problems clear up or stay the same. And you might not be able to easily do that, but that's how I'd try it. I'm repeating myself some, but switching and swapping is probably your best bet to proove or disproove where the problem is. Sorry it comes down to suspicions but that's the way it goes, lol.

    You originally said that it could "rip the DVD really fast", but encode was 2 ot 3 hours. IF this is still the same problem you are having, then that would steer me away from it being your burner. Once it's in the computer the burner is out of the picture. So I am assuming it's still can read fast but it encodes slowly, right? What confuses me is that you are using shrink and you list the encode time seperately from rip time, and up to 3 hours. So you are breaking up the process so that you rip first, then encode from files right? I'm not sure your particular reason to do it that way, but that leaves the burner totally out of the picture. It would be up to your main board, memory, cpu and HD to to the job. So the slow down could be affected by CPU performance or dependent on what running processes are going on. I know you checked for spyware, virus etc, but sometimes these checkers can miss things that are new. If even one bad one was running, it could change things. But according your task manager nothing is eating up cpu anyway.. hmm.. Anyway, I let shrink encode as it reads to files. I tried shrink 3.2 and it automatically asks for a blank to burn with and uses Nero to burn in the background. Is this how you do it now? Or still the other way?

    Here's something to check. How are your temps in AsusProbe? (it should be on your motherboard CD). An Intel CPU will throttle down to 1/2 speed if it over heats and your decode would go slow. That could happen if anything isn't quite right with your fan, or it's clogged with dust. I know, I know, it's probaby not that, but thought I'd mention it. Again, I think the fastest way is to eliminate things by swapping hardware around, and trying different units. Where you able to try those things? Or are you just going to wait until you change your computer?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2005
  4. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    mdinap, I guess you can't easily go back to before SP2? So your system is very similar to Sean577's? Is it an Asus motherboard, and cpu running at around 3ghz? I'm not a MS or SP2 lover myself, but it's strange that SP2 would slow it that much. I have tried with and without SP2 and couldn't notice any slowdown here. I did turn off the extra features like the SP2 firewall and other stuff since I have a Norton firewall. I may restore my computer from backup to before SP2.. But haven't decided yet. As Sean put it, MS can be very sneaky and I don't fully trust their privacy rules, lol... I like XP, but only tweaked my way ;-). Still it didn't change my burning issues, or my explorer, navigation speed, or speed of icons poping up. But if your system is on the verge of not being quick enough, I guess it's possible to slow it with the upgrade.

    At least you know that it's possible to burn faster without SP2... If that really is the cause. I guess it would be a pain to re-install XP fresh. It seems strange that your whole system slows down majorly with SP2. I know there is a little bit of cpu usage, but I can't even feel it on this system. Also there is a slower 2.1ghz here and it has NO problems or slowdowns with backing up movies. It's not as quick as the 3.2ghz here, but it's ok. Just giving you some comparisons.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2005
  5. brobear

    brobear Guest

    punx777
    The abridged version. DVD Shrink decrypts, edits, and compresses, doesn't burn. It can use AnyDVD for support when working with the new movies with difficult encryption.

    DVD Decrypter decrypts and writes files to the hard drive, it will also burn files in ISO write mode.

    [bold]Is Shrink too slow?[/bold] This thread has sure taken on a life of it's own and gone elsewhere (think thread hijack). LOL In answer to the original question, yes. But sometimes it's just the app and the way it's set.
     
  6. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    brobear,

    sean5775's original concern was that it wuld take up to 3 hours to backup a DVD which seemed way out of the norm to him. He was questioning if Shrinks speed could somehow cause that, and probably wondered if other people had the same slowness. He later found out that he could backup in only 45 minutes with a minor change suggested by cyberia (i think). But now his backup time has changed back to 2 to 3 hours again! This led to lots of people trying guess what the problem was, so that is probably why the thread grew long, wordy and seemingly un-abridged, LOL. His problem still remains unsolved. As for "thread hijack" you are right, lol... But I think punx777 has probably left the thread. Because he didn't know why the programs differed, I decided to explain ISO in a little more depth since he might not know why ISO was useful in decrypter to begin with, and it was a key feature.
     
  7. brobear

    brobear Guest

    Just joking about the verbosity that got involved with the hijacking. I wasn't trying to solve the problem. The original problem got lost somewhere back around page one and everyone kept posting to the thread on miscellaneous topics. Not a problem, unless you consider the confusion of someone wondering onto the thread looking for particular info. But then again, a shrink thread should be in the Shrink section.
     
  8. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    "Just joking about the verbosity".. Not a problem. I did notice other miscellaneous topics too. At one point I mixed up one persons computer specs with another's because of that, but quickly got used to who had what. The problems were so similar they probably thought they should be in the same thread. They seem to have the same problem and nearly the same computer configuration, but it's easy to lose that in a thread this large. The original person was Sean5775 and is still here. He recently wrote just a few lines up.. He might not be able to sovle it, but maybe there's still a chance.... You're right, they may not have been aware there was a specific Shrink section so probably just chose dvd-r for newbies.. It's probably an easy mistake to make since some sections seem to overlap with others in meaning, with some being somewhat more specific than others. I think it would be great if the forum offered a way to move a thread, but without losing the original people that know where it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2005
  9. brobear

    brobear Guest

    They do. If one is subscribed to a thread and it's moved, you still get notifications when the thread is posted to.
     
  10. sean5775

    sean5775 Regular member

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    Yes Im sorry at the time I started this thread I didnt even know about the Shrink section... I now do and post there occasionally.

    Anyways... I run Shrink and Nero and you were asking about ripping and encoding separatly. Well I do it just like scubapetes guide suggests. If there possibly is a better way then please let me know.

    I tried my burner in another computer and its slightly faster and encoding(1hour 35 minutes for TROY) then this computer is, and its a P4 1.3 GHZ I believe, it was a friends computer so I'm not exactly sure on the specs but not as good as this one anyways. I have tried using a different HD in this computer, a 60GB one that is around 75% full and the time for encoding was just over 2 hours, which is better then the nearly 3 hours it takes with the HD that was in this computer. Now thats still a little short of impressive but seems to point to the fact that this HD which is newer and less full, also bigger, might be a problem. Its under warranty still and if I can somehow proove that its a problem I can have it replaced. But unfortunatly for these computer techs. It always 'seems to work fine' to them therefore doesnt get replaced. So do you have any surefire tests for the HD to see if its good or not?
     
  11. ddp

    ddp Moderator Staff Member

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    problem might not be hardware but software. try ghosting original hd onto 60gig to see if burn time stays about same or not
     
  12. brobear

    brobear Guest

    You ask for help and then don't want to follow some of it. My earlier suggestions were to clean up your system and try to ensure you weren't using any corrupted files. Using the AnyDVD with Shrink will in some cases help. Also, there are different ways of setting Shrink. Utilizing the Analysis and Quality functions takes more time (better video). For a big movie like Troy you need the quality settings.

    My method for doing Troy with Shrink:
    Have AnyDVD running in the background (latest version).
    Put movie in DVD ROM.
    Place recordable media in burner.
    Open Shrink.
    Select Open Disc.
    After program does initial analysis check segments under Full Disc Backup / DVD Structure.
    Large movie, so it's a good idea not to record Extras.
    Click and highlight extras.
    Move to right under Compression Settings,
    In drop down window under video select Still Image with the Extras highlighted (this inserts a still image instead of the files)
    That leaves Menus and the Main Movie to be recorded.
    Under Audio, select the sound tracks to keep.
    Enter Backup
    In window select Burn settings and set to 4X (fast burns aren't the best)
    Under Quality settings check both options.
    Under DVD Region Free leave Region Free selected.
    Under Target Device - Select Backup Target; in the drop down window select your burner drive under Burn with Nero.
    Click OK and proceed to record.

    The above works as quickly as possible with good results. Remember without the quality settings it is faster. Quality settings are for the bigger movies, the smaller ones do okay without it. Learning the difference comes with practice and analysing file size as opposed to quality. Pay attention to the compression levels. Usually about 15 to 20% and above is a good time to use the quality settings.
    [bold]With the above method you get a movie only with a functional menu. Under Re-author the menu won't function.[/bold]

    For PCs of questionable resources (slow and older CPUs and low RAM) it is best to Rip with DVD Decrypter, Create a Hard Disk Folder for the Movie, and then burn separately. That keeps the RAM expenditure at any one time at it's lowest. Be sure to turn off any programs running in the background with small PCs.

    http://www.sisoftware.net
    The Sandra analysis program can run a benchmark test for the hard drive. The lite version is free. I have the Pro, so I'm not sure Lite has the option for comparison or not. If Lite has the same functionality as Pro for this segment, you can compare your test results to others. The benchmark test is something you can present to tech support as evidence of a problem.

    Did you say anything about defragging the hard drive? That and routine cleanup with spyware and adware tools (Ad-Aware SE, Spybot, SpySweeper and the like) allow a system to run at its best. I use all three of the apps listed.

    Changing the drives around leads you back to a conclusion it sounds you already drew; big slow hard drive. On a whimsical note; I'll give options I'd like, a bit expensive. A Raid 0 with twin 10,000 RPM Western Digital Raptors, RAID card, and in a SATA configuration is tops for speed. Then a single Raptor is preferable to a big slow drive. On a serious note, if it is the HD, would a similar one lead to the same conditions you are unhappy with. All hardware is not created equal and some PCs with the same processors will not run at the same speeds as far as programs go.
     
  13. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    Sure we could try to find a better test for the HD, but it might not be an actual problem or defect in the HD. The HD shipped with your system may simply be a slow one. It happened to my friend and we changed it. And you are right. You will never prove to them that it's defective unless it's on fire or something. Then they will ship you an identical replacement. I know it's an Asus motherboard, but I was wondering who packaged your system? I just hope it's not an Emachines or a Dell! (<backspace> Just kidding.. sort of). But most things can be fixed on these by swapping out the junk they put in with better stuff. For surefire tests, yes, I will see if there is a better test. You got 28MB/s in sandra which looked fine, yet you got an improvement on the other drive you just tried. So it may be the case that your drive may have a strength on that test but hidden weaknesses on other tests... read/write are different. So is file transfer etc.. I will look into this more and get back to you. But the improvement just in swapping the drive shows that one drive is clearly faster than the other. Do you know the brands/sizes of the new 60gb and old? Also are there dates of manufacture on the drives? In Sandra, under System Sumary it will show the drive manufacturers. When you power on your system (cold from off) does it show (on black DOS like screen), anything about ULTRA DMA 5 next to your drives? In BIOS is your PIO mode 4? Just curious. Ultra dma 4 or 5 would be fine. 5 should be the norm for a new system.

    So you have a somewhat slowish HD, and the Sandra mem speeds we tested are 1/3rd of mine.. That combination is enough to really increase your dvd backup time.. But still, this isn't enough to explain going from 2+ hours down to 45mins, then back to 2+ hours. I believe you have some slow components, but I still remember that you switched your drives and cables around, and the time changed drastically only to return back to slow a little later. That was the most significant thing and maybe should be looked at again. That's why I wondered if something was loose or bad with the cables. But you probably already tried just about everything. At this point, if you can't find why it changed you might have to accept it, as you said. Just make sure all cables are set the way they were when it was working better.. Just to be sure, while we are comparing, In Shrink you're not doing deep analysis, and you don't have the quality (sharp etc) settings ticked on right? Other wise I can't make a good comparison. Since you got a low memory score, could you also run the sandra Cache & Memory Benchmark and let me know what system the graph looks like it's close to? It should compare to a typical 3ghz system if that's what you have. I'm just looking for more clues here.

    Also did you try swapping IDE cables? I don't see any thing else obvious. If I think of a better test than sandra, I will post it.

    To answer your question about a better way to back up, as for using Shrink, that guide was partly built around using dvd decrypter. That way free burning software could be used. The guide mentions setting to iso mode then feeding this to decrypter. This isn't neccissary since you have Nero. You can actually tick back "use Nero" and use Nero if you like. That's how most are doing it. In fact you can download Shrink 3.2 as is and if Nero is installed, it will simply ask you for a blank and then burn through Nero. However it won't improve your backup times. I tested it here and it didn't. I made mine use decryptor.. and no difference. It could affect your system though. You'd have to test that.

    So it's a matter of how you want to use it. As for Quality settings I asked if you had them on, because I noticed that you said you did at one point. More than one person mentioned this and my suggestion is that you make sure they are BOTH unchecked except for rare occasions. Not only because you getting slow backups already, but because 99% of the time the differences are either not visible, or are very negligible for a *majority* of movies. Shrink did wonderful backups before they ever added this extra. They included it because in rarer cases it helps *a little* and this requires experimentation to notice. And probably some DVD's can be found where it helps more.... But Ever since they did that, people seem to think unchecking those boxes means low qaulity DVD copies. They think fast and poor qaulity. This simply is not true. If your friend tested you with 2 DVD's, 1 normal, the other hi quality settings on, you probably could not tell him which was which to save your life. I have stared at detailed movies on a 65 inch screen for way too long and found I could rarely see a difference. Of course the best way, is to try a few back and forth and compare. Just make sure you are doing an honest comparison like I did, and that your eyes don't play tricks, ;-)

    Some don't mind waiting and that's personal preference, but I'd only try it if I suspected the compression was too high in combination with a super detailed movie, where the backup looked different. The times I did notice a difference were on a small handful of very large movies, like 8 or 9GB. Also this wasn't for all large movies. Only a few of these large movies. And I mean, I really had to stare long and hard to find the difference in the picture. My vision tests great too. If an improvment can be made using sharp or hi quality settings, it will try to fix some of it by allowing successive frames to be compressed less at the cost of lowering the input frame rate and throwing out while duplicating other frames. The output is still 30fps of course, but what's there has been changed. Basically modifying the motion from the original. This can cause some jerkyness (or slurring), not typically visible. Another big misconception is that if the movie is large (7+GB) then it will always lose a lot of quality during compression. This is not true either. It depends on the detail levels in the original picture in combination with the size. It also depends on how much the movie company studio decided to waste on the DVD and what compression levels they chose too Many big movies compress great, a few don't. It works exactly the same as jpg photos. Some can be made amazingly small and look the same, a few can't be. Only in this case, the movie will still get squeezed so there is little to correct those certain movies. Only help it some. So unless you have these certain movies, and are sure you can really see a bad backup, my suggestion is to leave it off for most of your titles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2005
  14. brobear

    brobear Guest

    sean5775
    Seems you and BlueLaser are communicating outside the thread on the topic. His analysis of your Sandra results are proof of that. Giving only partial information and not having all the information in a thread is a problem. In fact it ends up wasting a lot of peoples time. We give the time freely, but it shouldn't be in a wasted effort. I supplied links to useful analysis tools and some information I've learned and picked up that aren't even in the software guides. I could see seeking help outside a thread, if you hadn't asked for assistance in a thread already. The rules are there for a reason. I hope you and BlueLaser solve your problem. The way you've decided to handle it is against the rules and make it difficult for others. Apparently you trust BlueLaser above the rest of us. Hope the two of you get the problem resolved to your satisfaction.
     
  15. BlueLaser

    BlueLaser Member

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    Brobear,

    We our communicating outside the thread?? And my analysis of his sandra results are proof? I don't how you are reaching these far reaching conclusions, but we are doing nothing more than answering each other in a thread that Sean5775 started.. The one that I and others found. This is *HIS* thread, his problem and his questions. I read your post where you suggest that he tries the sandra benchmark. The fact that I already suggested he download it 2 or 3 days ago, I think prooves that you haven't bothered to read the thread before attempting to answer questions. Isn't that a waste of peoples time? It sure is. What's even more bizzare is that you critisize me and the original poster for looking over sandra results, but at the same time you advised him to use sandra yourself. So had he come back and offered results of sandra and ask you a question, you would have not answered him? Yet when we talk about it, we are talking outside the thread.

    When I give an explanation I try to make it thorough enough to help, hence the verbosity you basically made fun of in my posts. You come into the middle of a thread, and you just begin insulting people. After all, you've already had to half heartedly apologize to me once by saying you were just kidding for making fun of my paragraphs with your "abridged" version. I think if there is any problem here, it's that you didn't read everything carefully. By reading your first post it showed you had no clue as to what the actual problem really was. Then in your 2nd posting, you also demonstrated the same thing since some of it had been mentioned. The only useful thing you provided was notes on how to set compression ratios... But again, that was not the main issue of the thread here.

    Also your insulting, "We give time freely" comment is over the top. "We" as if it includes you and some other special people for example. The "We" here, started off in this thread as several patient helping individuals. And I believe Sean is what of those "We"'s. The links and information you supplied show that you are very informed and knowledgeable person regarding dvd backup, but there is this condesending attitude that comes with it. It's like because you know you are good at it, you appear like you think you are one of the only ones that are in the know, and all this stuff is top secret. Then there is the hideous cartoon in your signature. It's an angry bear walking right towards someone. Is there a connection here?

    I joined AfterDawn months ago but felt like some people were too strict, so I never offered any help. Now I just started, and low and behold there is some person out of the blue hounding, insulting and accusing me of things. I don't know what you mean by talking "outside" the thread, but I did one thing, and one thing only. I read the "Is dvdshrink too slow?" thread and answered it. If you bother to read my posts you will see they remain in one thread only. If there is something else going on here, then there was no way for me personally to be aware of it. And if that is true, I can only sugggest that the forum be properly updated avoid confusion like this in the future. But at this point the forum shows nothing. The only way to know this is to read the whole forum. If someone else broke the rules fine. But DO NOT lump me in with them. And as for the rules, let me tell you something. Rules are there for a reason, but when rules have holes in them that don't lend them selfs to avoiding confusion, and it ends up with the AfterDawn police coming after people, there is a problem. That is the real problem here. I was under the impression the forum was here to help people solve problems. That is what I was trying to do.

    What else bothers me is that if you look at my posts, it's easy to see that I spent much extra time trying to help someone on AfterDawn. Instead of being appreciated by AfterDawn, I get bullied by you, supposedly a senior member. What ever that means. As for your assessment of Sean trusting me above "the rest of us".. I think you have a major misconception. He wants his system fixed and has been answering everyone very nicely. At least from what I see in this thread. Even if he did trust what I said more than someone else, I also don't see something terribly wrong with that. Unless you have some sort of ego complex where you must be praised all the time and it bothers you. I sure as h*ll don't care if he "trusts" someone more than me. So why should you?
    And your other comment - "Hope the two of you get the problem resolved to your satisfaction.".. Has someone stopped you from writing here? No one has, because your comments are mixed in with the others. He usually answers a certain time of day, but you didn't give it enough time. If the problem is that he is not answering you somewhere else, I don't think you shouldn't worry about it. If it were me, I'd think the time would be best spent answering other questions and threads, if you truly want to help people. Finally, I didn't come here to make enemies, but if that's the way you want it, so be it. I refuse to be bullied into conforming to something that is utter nonsense, and I think anyone on AfterDawn would feel the same. I try to be nice and follow rules, but only when they resemble some shred of common sense. If you want to resolve in a decent way, I'm all ears but otherwise, please don't bother me anymore.
     
  16. dvdripdvd

    dvdripdvd Regular member

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    Wow...way off topic?
     
  17. johns3304

    johns3304 Guest

    "Wow...way off topic?".. YEAH, but if you read it, the brobear is stirring things uP
     
  18. ddp

    ddp Moderator Staff Member

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    BlueLaser, your right
     
  19. sean5775

    sean5775 Regular member

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    WOW... Maybe this thread is getting off topic a little bit, but just a little bit. I have been an admin at a very popular forum for a couple years now, and if we closed or removed every topic that has gone a little off topic then there would be nothing left. It seems from my experience that just about everything goes slightly off topic. This thread in my opinion is pretty much still on the same topic. I had detailed problems with what I originally thought was a DVD Shrink problem, which I later learned could be my system that has problems. Either way the problem is still the same. The cause is just different then originally thought. Not really off topic. Or should I have started a new thread when I learned that my system was the problem? I don't think so.

    Brobear... Almost everything you said, and I wont get into details, shows that you did not read the entire thread. And all of the communication has been posted in this thread. Nothing outside the thread has ever been said.

    Bluelaser- I do trust what you said, mainly because you have been helping out since the beginning and your posts are not just information and general ideas, they are very detailed and helpful. And that I very much appreciate, especially since I don't see many other posts from you on the site.

    Anyways theres alot of information in this thread so I am going to recap where I sit right now.

    I today have exchanged my hard drive which I lucked out and the tech at the store seemed to believe me, he quickly tested it and said it wasn't working right. The model I had is discontinued so I had to pick something within a certain price range. I ended up with a Western Digital Caviar SE 120GB 7200RPM Hard Drive. I only wish I remember what kind of drive I had before I know this one is bigger and I believe it spins faster as well.

    Now I tested with Troy using all the same settings in shrink as I previously had, I had to download it again, because I prefered to start off the new drive with only the basic software. Anyways this has reduced the time for Troy from near 3 hours down to 2 hours and 5 minutes, which is better but not the 45 minutes I did do. Now this backup was with the quality settings on, which I always have done, now just for comparisson I did it again with the settings turned off. The total time was 1 hour and 52 minutes. Thats a difference of only 13 minutes.

    The only other thing that I had changed since my time was good was the IDE cables, I checked the connections, and even tried the old cables again with no differences noticed.

    Now somewhere it was mentioned about the kind of computer I had. Well I built this one myself, with the help of a friend, it was't bought as it is now. I used a combination of parts I had from an older computer and new parts, with intensions of changing most of the used parts with new, which with the exception of the CPU and motherboard is all within 6 months old.

    I see you recommend I try a test with Sandra, I havent downloaded it again yet, but will be running that test later tonight.

    I am impressed with the results that changing the hard drive has done, I still think something else is holding it up. I am going to try a backup of a DVD that does not require compression and see how that turns out. It was taking 45 minutes just a couple days ago from the time I put the DVD in to the time it asks for a blank. I am hoping that it can run through this alot faster now, but only time will tell.
     
  20. dvdripdvd

    dvdripdvd Regular member

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    brobear always has ideas so i'm always interested in what he has to say. consider me "informed"
     

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