Has anyone used "CDR-By-Mail" for CDs/DVDs? This is a report on a situation that has arisen with this "organization"... I would just like to point out that i am not bitter or angry at CDR-By-Mail or Genesys DTP or anything like that but simply posting this as i told them i would as a matter of fact and i think the online disc buying community should be informed of this. Read it if you wish. Delete it if you wish. Feel free to leave any (intelligent) comments if you wish. First of all i visit most of these forums/websites regularly and i am not just a "lurker". I have many years experience with computers and a pretty decent general knowledge of technology in general. Networking, programming and security/cryptography are my main computer interests... CD/DVD writing is more of a necessity but i think i know enough about this field of computing to compare to many who would call themselves an enthusiast although certainly not as much as the "gurus" in these forums. To summarize: I ordered 200 Taiyo Yuden CDs to use with my Liteon 52327. I sent my (cash) payment to CDR-By-Mail by Royal Mail Special Delivery Next Day. I tried to contact them several times. They did not reply. I went back to the place that suggested using them, Genesys DTP, (CDR-By-Mail's USA distributor) and contacted them. This prompted CDR-By-Mail to contact me once more informing me that they have been Burgled. Although Genesys DTP has been helpful and responsive they have from the start continued to try and disassociate themselves with CDR-By-Mail and my Order. Email to Genesys DTP Sun, 4 Apr 2004 22:09:51 GMT: "I came across your site "http://www.genesysdtp.com" while i was looking for the more rare CDs/DVDs such as Taiyo Yudens etc. I import a lot of goods from overseas (particularly from Japan and USA) and after reading all the (good) customer feedback on your company (more specifically on "Genesys DTP") i decided to consider using you as my primary supplier for CDs/DVDs for personal use. Because of your good customer feedback and based on the promises made on both of your websites i decided to take your suggestion and "Check out your UK distributor CDR-By-Mail" with every intention of using them as my main supplier." Reply from Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:25:07 EDT: "CDR-By-Mail is an independent company. Other than supplying them with some of their media that they sell, there is no other business relationship between Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail." Email to Genesys DTP Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:52:32 GMT: "To what extent is CDR-By-Mail independent of Genesys DTP? If you had a dog would you consider it to be independent? It certainly thinks for itself while it decides for example to do it's "business" in the patio or starting playing around with a hornets nest but you still have to feed it every so often. It seems CDR-By-Mail is neither self reliant as far as (disc) supplies and Genesys DTP is concerned (which is what both sites essentially sell) nor do CDR-By-Mail seem to be independent of Genesys DTP from the way Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail refer to each other and if you were to claim that CDR-By-Mail was merely an affiliate of Genesys DTP that would also seem to be an understatement. My decision to "Check out Genesys DTP's UK distributor CDR-By-Mail" was based on the good customer feedback of Genesys DTP and the same promises made on both websites as well as the fact that everyone i spoke to told me that Genesys DTP refer to CDR-By-Mail as their "Sister site". As i have also already pointed out, I found the website of Genesys DTP first and it was (and still is) under the Company Info page on the website of Genesys DTP and at Genesys DTP's suggestion again on that same page that i decided to "Check out" what Genesys DTP calls "their UK distributor" using the URL in link provided on the Company Info page of the Genesys DTP website which leads to CDR-By-Mail. If you buy the same computer from www.dell.co.uk and from www.dell.com are you buying from 2 different "independent" companies?" Reply from Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:12:13 EDT: "Sorry to hear you're still having problems. Without getting into details, as I've said, these are two independent companies, which have a business relationship, and since we're in two different countries, we refer clients to one another. To answer your question, maybe this will make more sense: If CDR-By-Mail were located in the United States, they'd be my competition, and we would not enjoy the same business relationship." Email to Genesys DTP Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:17:56 GMT: "ps i would have thought any professional salesman worth the computer they are sitting at would consider their very co-workers sitting right next to them as competition despite working for the same company? I can only describe the Situation in the context it was originally presented to me which is that: Genesys DTP not only link to and recommends CDR-By-Mail but supply CDR-By-Mail with "some of" their stock both online stores primarily selling CD and DVD media. Each refer to each other as "sister sites" and Genesys DTP refers to CDR-By-Mail as their "UK distributer" which is what is written on the Company Info page of the Genesys DTP website." Reply from Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:11:53 EDT: "To put it another way, for example, if I buy products for resale from, say Verbatim, and Verbatim was to list Genesys DTP on their retail web store as "where to buy Verbatim products", then would you consider Verbatim and Genesys DTP to be the same company? No, Genesys DTP would be a "US distributor" of Verbatim products." and "Any problems concerning delivery, e-mails, tracking info, communication, etc. is beyond the scope of what I can do to help. I have no input, say, control, etc. in how CDR-By-Mail communicates with their customers or runs their business." I say fair enough on the second point, but the other comment taken on it's own would have you believe Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail has no relationship of any sort whatsoever which is not the case based on what Genesys DTP has already admitted. Verbatim is a Brand Name. Verbatim manufactures discs. CDR-By-Mail & Genesys DTP sell Discs. At no point has Genesys DTP specifically mentioned anything about "reselling" the discs to CDR-By-Mail and CDR-By-Mail is the _only_ place "listed" on the Genesys DTP website. In the context of Genesys DTP & CDR-By-Mail, in the example given and depending on how Genesys DTP was "listed", Verbatim and Genesys DTP would not be the same company but would be part of the same organization loosely speaking since there would almost definitely be royalties involved, and Genesys DTP does not refer to CDR-By-Mail as "a UK distributor" but as "our UK distributor" and not under any "where to buy Genesys DTP products" page but under the _Company_Info_ page --- which is filled from top to bottom with almost everything you would want to know about the Company and nothing else. The only distinctions as far as i can tell that can be made between Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail based on the information that was made available is that Genesys DTP targets customers from the USA and CDR-By-Mail targets Europe and each has a different domain. Maybe Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail are not the same company, but it would be easy to come to the conclusion that they are prior to purchasing, only to have them try to persuade you that they are not when things go wrong on one side, and at this stage it is obvious they have a closer "business relationship" than they make out... I wanted to pay by cash so i asked if that would be ok. Reply from CDR-By-Mail (anne @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk) Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:45:48 -0000: "Hi, As you are happy to send them by special delivery so that the money is insured in the post we are happy to receive payments in cash from you. Please complete your order in the usual way at our store and select the option to send your payment through the mail. You can then send the cash to us and we will send your order to you on receipt." Sent cash. Waited. At this point i had received no goods, i didn't know the Status of the Order or whether or not it had been dispatched or processed, I had not received any acknowledgement to confirm the money had been received, and i had basically received absolutely no communication from CDR-By-Mail whatsoever despite several attempts to contact them. The website indicated the items were in stock (or at least not out of stock) when i ordered and has indicated this since then. My first email to CDR-By-Mail concerning the Order was on 25/03/2004. Due to their delay in responding, the Order was placed on Saturday 27/03/2004 and CDR-By-Mail received payment (which i sent by Next Day Royal Mail Special delivery) on 30/03/2004. Despite several attempts to contact CDR-By-Mail they did not respond at which point i contacted Genesys DTP. CDR-By-Mail then replied with the last email i have in fact received from them so far: CDR-By-Mail (sales @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk) Mon, 5 Apr 2004 12:47:10 +0100: "Your order has not yet been dispatched out to you due to our work unit being broken in to during last weekend (28th March). We are expecting more of the Taiyo Yuden media to be delivered to us this Wednesday or Thursday and as soon as we receive this media we will issue your order out to you straight away." Wednesday and Thursday had come and gone with no Delivery or email to confirm dispatch. Email to CDR-By-Mail Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:54:54 GMT: "For the Record, and before i ask them myself, which Police Station was the Burglary Reported to and when was it reported and who reported it, who was it reported to and how was it reported?" "I assume for any "computers" that were "stolen" CDR-By-Mail has given the Police the MAC addresses (network cards) and Serial Numbers of the hard disk drives etc which programmers often use for software licensing and which can be used for computer Identification. What are these numbers?" The Burglary was supposed to have taken place on Sunday 28/03/2004 according to CDR-By-Mail. I asked CDR-By-Mail if the "work unit" that was "Burgled" has the same address as the address on the index page of CDR-By-Mail's website. I asked CDR-By-Mail if they received a batch of "the Taiyo Yuden media" on Thursday 01/04/2004 (after the Burglary) as CDR-By-Mail's website indicates "deliveries normally made to us weekly each Thursday." I asked if CDR-By-Mail's USA distributer, Genesys DTP was the sender of "the Taiyo Yuden media"? I asked CDR-By-Mail and Genesys DTP which Police Station the Burglary was reported to and i even gave them a list of all the Police Stations in the area (Colchester, Essex) according to the Official Essex Police Website. I have not received any replies to these questions except from Genesys DTP: Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:12:13 EDT: "Sorry, I have no info as to the specifics of this." At this exact time (12/04/2004 1900 GMT) I have received a total of 3 emails from "CDR-By-Mail": The first from "anne @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk" dated "Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:45:48 -0000" was received by me on Saturday 27/03/2004 between 1200 and 1400 GMT due to what i can only deduce is a problem with their email server and this problem already existed before the "Burglary". The second from "sales @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk" dated "Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:58:10 +0000 (GMT)" was the Automated Website Order Confirmation email and was received by me immediately. The third from "sales @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk" dated "Mon, 5 Apr 2004 12:47:10 +0100" was received by me immediately. Genesys DTP contacted me. Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:31:24 EDT: "Matt at CDR-By-Mail tells me that he has replied to you again, with status of your order and shipping info" Email to Genesys DTP Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:17:56 GMT: "I hope you, (or Mr Matt *******) is not refering to CDR-By-Mail's email to me dated 05/04/2004 which would also arguably qualify as a "reply" with the "status" of my Order (out of stock) and "shipping info" (how it will be shipped when and if it ships) If this is the case, this amounts to no reply from CDR-By-Mail, no dispatch and no delivery. And your replies amount to you telling me what he has told you he has done (which he hasn't) and an offering of more "help". Considering the 1st email of 3 was from "anne @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk" and the second was automated, email 3 of 3 from CDR-By-Mail (dated 05/04/2004 which i have already acknowledged receiving in my previous email dated 08/04/2004) must have been from Mr Matt ******* if he has now replied "again" and i hope by "shipping info" you mean to say that it has now in fact actually shipped?" Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:11:53 EDT: "Here's what Matt wrote to me last night. "I sent a quick reply to that guy though we have emailed him before. I copied it to you so you could see what I said. His stuff went out today. I'll email him a reply to the other stuff though the police told us to keep quiet about how much we had lost in case it gave anyone else ideas!!"" So according to Genesys DTP, Mr Matt ******* of CDR-By-Mail, is claiming that i am supposed to be in possession of 2 more emails (which i have not received). Mr Matt ******* is then supposed to have sent a "copy" of the (second?) email to Genesys DTP (i have not been made aware of the content of this "copy" by Genesys DTP) Mr Matt ******* then claims that my Order was dispatched... Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:12:13 EDT: "I will be speaking with Matt ******* later this evening. I've forwarded a copy of your long e-mail to him. I would expect him to contact you by voice or e-mail later this evening or tomorrow." Genesys DTP and Mr Matt ******* must have made contact with each other between 16:12:13 and 21:31:24 EDT on 08/04/2004 (Genesys DTP local time) which would be between 21:12:13 and 02:31:24 GMT (CDR-By-Mail local time). Mr Matt ******* would have also replied to me supposedly between these times. Because i don't put much weight in what CDR-By-Mail claims due to prior broken promises, if you were to look at things literally, "His stuff went out today" could also mean early Friday 09/04/2004 (GMT) instead of late Thursday 08/04/2004 (EDT) if they contacted each other after 2400 GMT (1900 EDT) Shipping is supposed to be "1-2 Working Days (Interlink Express)". The Order was supposed to have been dispatched on Thursday 08/04/2004. It is Monday 12/04/2004 (a bank holiday) today and I have not received the Order yet, now 3 weeks after my first email to CDR-By-Mail concerning the Order. Mr Matt ******* then points out that he will send me a _further_ email to answer my other enquiries regarding the "Burglary" of CDR-By-Mail (which was supposed to be, according to CDR-By-Mail, the reason for all these complications with my Order in the first place). This "3rd email" from Mr Matt ******* would bring the total number of emails received from CDR-By-Mail (according to CDR-By-Mail) to "6". I have received no such email. This leaves me with a total of 3 emails from CDR-By-Mail as already mentioned. It is extremely unlikely that the emails sent from CDR-By-Mail (Mr Matt *******) are being delayed (lag) for this amount of time or blocked completely and this does also not explain the lack of a delivery for this amount of time. As already mentioned, i have not been given a Tracking Number for the package either. I have now spent 3 weeks waiting for this small and simple Order, with very little Communication regarding it's Status and at least 2 broken Promises from CDR-By-Mail from the only 2 non automated communications i have received from them. As far as i'm concerned there is a possibility that this is a case of Fraud on the part of CDR-By-Mail. I am still waiting to receive my Order and answers to my questions. Will update when/if i receive a delivery/explanation. This is unfortunately only one of Several other Transactions i have had any Issues with right now. Alternative United Kingdom unbranded TY suppliers _NONE_ of which i have used but was considering using: http://www.blankdiscshop.co.uk http://www.cd-rmedia.co.uk http://www.riverproaudio.co.uk http://www.nierle2.com If you are considering using an online store that is prone to burglaries you'd better hope that the men in the black & white stripy t-shirts aren't hanging around outside it and that they don't steal one of the computers with all of your unencrypted personal information on it
The Order was dispatched on Thursday 08/04/2004 and I have now received the goods..... CDR-By-Mail is therefore really only guilty of 1 broken promise and this was due to the burglary. The second was assumed due to a lack of communication on the part of CDR-By-Mail + the bank holidays etc did not help. There is no issues of fraud or any foul play of any kind i have with CDR-By-Mail. This was not exactly what i bargained for however, and i still think the "relationship" between Genesys DTP and CDR-By-Mail is very misleading. CDR-By-Mail have made an attempt to give me more details about the Burglary and how it has been a disruption for them. I am satisfied with what they have told me and i hope that the theives/vandals pay for their crimes. CDR-By-Mail has been (not surprisingly) more responsive since i posted to Forums. Every email that i have received has been received instantly with no "delay" problems. It was stated by CDR-By-Mail in the last email received from them, (after i had confirmed which emails i had received) that i had only received 2 of the 3 emails they had just sent me. I have received 3 further emails from CDR-By-Mail. These emails are dated Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:11:15 +0100, Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:24:20 +0100 and Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:50:38 +0000 (and 12/04/2004 20:40:08 EDT from Genesys DTP) sales @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk continued to "refer" to an email they insisted was sent to me on "Thursday evening the 8th April 2004" and cdrbym @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk a.k.a "Matt" stated "I personally sent you an email I believe on Thursday 8th April 2004" I have not received these emails and i informed CDR-By-Mail of this. Despite CDR-By-Mail sending these 2 further emails and Genesys DTP a further 1 it still remains the case that neither has mentioned an exact date/time or the exact contents of the supposed emails/copies of the emails. I have not suggested this to CDR-By-Mail until now but we could have asked both of our Email and Internet Service Providers to check their logs and corroborate, but this would be a waste of everyones time. In the last email received from CDR-By-Mail dated Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:11:15 +0100, they maintain that an email was sent but have now admitted that there may have been problems with the emails they were supposed to have sent me. CDR-By-Mail has now acknowledged that i have not received the emails that on Thursday 08/04/2004 they were supposed to have sent. According to CDR-By-Mail, Order dispatch confirmation emails are normally sent automatically but there were problems with this due to the burglary. Apparently CDR-By-Mail is implementing new mechanisms to make their "systems" more secure and the automatic Order dispatch confirmation email system is supposed to be back up and running again soon. As already mentioned i honestly don't mind if this post is deleted. I posted to the Forums because i told CDR-By-Mail and Genesys DTP that i would. I ended up telling them i would post in the Forums because of the lack of communication regarding the Order in general. I'm sorry if CDR-By-Mail and Genesys DTP don't think that this was fair but the "Report" is completely based on Fact and any "allegations" made were reasonable ones based on these facts. I would do the same thing again if i was in the same situation again. As i say, this post is based on what has actually happened. CDR-By-Mail and Genesys DTP were of corse informed and they have both replied not disputing any real issues with my "Report" or my "ramblings" as Genesys DTP puts it. This "Report" is not written or authored by the Forum it has been sent to or that it is hosted on. I take full responsibility for any content i have written in it and the other parties (CDR-By-Mail and Genesys DTP) should address any dispute with it to me. Apart from what CDR-By-Mail stated in their email dated 5th April 2004 and the third hand knowledge Genesys DTP shared with me, the only absolute confirmation of Dispatch or any form of "Tracking" was sent to me on 13/04/2004 @ 00:50:38 GMT essentially stating: >Your order should therefore be > delivered to you on > Tuesday 13th April 2004 This is not really my idea of Shipment Tracking (something which i have requested from the start, and, which Interlink Express i have now discovered do have a pretty good tracking system). There is also still no mention of a Tracking number. All couriers do sometimes fall behind schedule... CDR-By-Mail (cdrbym @ cdr-by-mail.co.uk) Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:50:38 +0000: "I can confirm that the next delivery of Taiyo Yuden CDR following the break-in was on Thursday 8th April 2004. We did not have a scheduled delivery on Thursday 1st April 2004 as we would have had sufficient supplies at that time had we not been subject to a break-in. Furthermore, to have received a delivery on the 1st April we would have had to have placed an order the preceding week which was prior to our break-in." CDR-By-Mail (and Genesys DTP) have apologised several times for the inconveniences caused... I accept these apologies. My accepting CDR-By-Mail's explanations of the Burglary, Dispatch and the Delay in delivery is only now after having received communication from CDR-By-Mail and after receiving the goods... Genesys DTP (SecondsOut @ aol.com) Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:40:08 EDT: "Genesys DTP sells discs (at wholesale pricing) to CDR-By-Mail. CDR-By-Mail pays Genesys DTP for the discs. Genesys DTP makes a profit on the discs and supplies that they sell to CDR-By-Mail. CDR-By-Mail pays for all shipping costs from the US to the UK for said shipments, and pays all import fees, duties, tariffs, etc. that are imposed by the UK government." Fair enough. I wonder why something similar to this (maybe attenuated slightly...) was and is not mentioned on the Genesys DTP website? It has to be said that the TY discs i received from CDR-By-Mail were very well packed. However when i removed the packaging i realized the goods were damaged slightly. I have sent CDR-By-Mail scanned photographs of the CDs i received from them. Unfortunately i had to improvise and the photos were taken with an old Polaroid camera then scanned with a cheap scanner (and i am not a photographer). I am going to assume that this is due to the Couriers (Interlink Express) either due to the delay in transit (weekend, bank holiday etc) or as already mentioned in a previous email to CDR-By-Mail, i have never used Interlink Express before and maybe this is the level of service you get for £8 or as i have never bought CDs online before (for these very concerns) maybe this is how they arrive or maybe i am just having bad luck with this Order CDR-By-Mail has humbly accounted this to the bank holiday weekend and the delay in transit and the exportation from the USA to the UK. CDR-By-Mail has assured me that discs are usually checked for damage and this checking process was disrupted by the burglary and the rush to get Orders out on time or as soon as it was possible to do so. CDR-By-Mail has offered to replace any discs that are damaged. The storage tubs were visibly more damaged than the discs from what i can tell. I dont know how many discs are damaged. The discs seem to be ok... CDs are made from polycarbonate afterall, which is the same stuff "bullet proof glass" and motorcycle helmet visors are made out of but i won't know until i try them out. There are only a few that i can see for example where there are scratches from where the discs have moved around. I have no intention of testing or using 200 CDs any time soon and do not have the time to post discs/storage tubs etc through the mail back to CDR-By-Mail. CDR-By-Mail can send me a couple of discs if they want to... It is the storage tubs that i can confirm need replacing. Storage tubs of 50 instead of 100 in capacity would do nicely if you don't mind...? I am just going to put this experience down to bad luck on both my part and CDR-By-Mail. It was not and is not really my intention to discourage anyone from any supplier. I am simply stating what has happened. This was essentially a means to an end to end this order. I'm sure CDR-By-Mail will take measures to improve their security after what has happened and it seems CDR-By-Mail is a young business still developing. It was my intention to use CDR-By-Mail as one of my main suppliers and i have put the question to them: "Based on this experience would you continue to use CDR-By-Mail as a main supplier?" and it would be interesting to hear what they had to say but it is not really necessary for them to answer any more questions. Regarding the sending of cash as a payment method... Many international suppliers only accept EFT as a payment method which is essentially electronic cash. I have made 39 cash based online transactions of various quantities in the last 6 months with new and trusted suppliers, domestic and international and have not had any issues resulting directly from the payment method being cash (including this one). If a "supplier" decides they don't want to send you the goods, if you pay cash, the supplier has to give you their address/bank details etc first and you would just lose what money you have sent. If you use a card, then they could theoretically take whatever they wanted even if you were able to claim the transaction as fraudulent with the credit card company. It would be interesting to hear why you think there is more of a risk using cash as a payment method if you do. I would argue that researching into the supplier first is more important than the payment method. BTW, i was considering SVP for the Taiyo Yuden CDs but there wasn't really enough information about the discs on the website and no mention of the discs being supplied in a storage tub + price is not usually a major deciding factor for me. Any advice is welcome of corse! Maybe i'll check out SVP if i should choose to continue buying discs online...
