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Verbatim -R Disc Looks Just As Bad As Other Brand RW

Discussion in 'DVD±R media' started by Hellok, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Hello,
    I just bought some Verbatim DVD-Rs because of how good their quality was supposed to be. I'm not saying they are bad (they wouldn't obviously have gained the reputation they have), but I honestly can't tell any difference in the viewing quality as compared to some Sony DVD+RWs I have. I'm a little disappointed because I was expecting it to look better not only because it is a Verbatim disc but also because it is a -R disc. I've learned that write once is better and that -R is more compatible than +R. I didn't come on here to complain, but i'm confused. I've been using a Lite-On DVD player to test the quality because that is the player my RW disc looked really bad on. I don't see a difference at all with the Verbatim. Could it possibly be the player? I pretty much ruled that out because everything else (Hollywood DVDs) looks fine on it and I used a -R disc so it should be more compatible right? I used ImgBurn and have updated firmware for an LG drive. The disc looks okay in other players. I'm just confused about what the cause may be. What is it about Verbatim that makes it particularly better?
     
  2. jony218

    jony218 Guest

    If the disc plays fine without skipping or hanging, then the disc is good. That's the definition of a good burn.

    I don't use the verbatim (minus) because I had problems with them skipping. The verbatim (plus) are very good. the sony's (plus or minus) are also very good.

    The discs themselves won't improve the quality of the actual video, all discs will look the same on the screen. Software that edited the video is what determines what the video will look on the screen.
     
  3. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Right, that makes sense. The disc can only preserve the quality of the actual video, but if it's a lower quality disc the video may be compromised. Sony+RW would be considered lower quality than verbatim-R wouldn't they? So i figured that the RW may have made the video look worse. There isn't a really noticeable difference between either disc. Both discs play differently on one player (lite-on) than another (sony). It just looks really bad on the lite-on. It confused me. I think it must be as good as it's going to get though. I used Sony Vegas 6 to edit and encode to MPEG-2 and then made the VIDEO_TS files with DVD Architect and burned with ImgBurn, if that means anything.
     
  4. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    Like jony said, you're not getting the video quality from the physical properties of the disc...you could put that video on a piece of toast, and it will look the same if you player would play it. A good disc will give a good burn and good playback, no skipping/pixelating/freezing and such.
    The problems with the RW, the more you re-use them, the more prone to errors they become.
     
  5. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Okay, thanks.

    Do you have any idea what could be causing the possible display difference? I'm almost positive it's not the t.v and the player never has had problems.
     
  6. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    DVD+/-R/RW are digital media, which means that they hold a binary encoding system that is deciphered by a mini-computer in a chip on a digital player. The advantage is that the medium no longer contributes to the message, and as long as one can transfer that binary code from one medium to the next, there is no change in quality.

    Analog media, such as vinyl or cassette tape, hold a "picture" of the information; and the flaws of the media cannot be separated from the message. Tape, for example, has some hiss from unaligned particles. Recording a program from one tape to another will add 3 decibels (double) of noise to the program because the hiss from the new tape is added to the inherent hiss from the original.

    As long as an optical disc can hold the same mathematical code and deliver it, there is no difference in the program. A program on a decent DVD-R will look exactly like that prgram recorded on a DVD+R or a rewritable disc. Only if the code cannot be retrieved due to flaws in the medium or a bad recording will there be any difference, and that difference shows up as pixelation when error correction guesses at what the signal should have been and gets it wrong.

    Quality among optical media depends on how well those media meet the electrical and physical specifications and how consistent the production is from batch to batch. A rewritable disc has lower reflectivity than a dye-based disc because the laser light reflects off a semi-metal alloy rather than silver, but DVD players recognize the difference (because of the disc codes) and boost light sensitivity. The picture from a well recorded DVD+RW is indistiguishable from the picture from a well recorded DVD-R or DVD+R dye-based disc since the binary code is identical. As long as the code is legible, the picture is intact. Saying that a Sony DVD+RW is lower quality than a Verbatim DVD-R is tantamount to saying that a cow is lower quality than a horse. Ever ride a cow? Ever drink horse milk? Each is made for a different use.

    DVD-R is more compatible than DVD+R mainly because some early Panasonic players and drives were designed to refuse to recognize DVD+R/RW disc because "they violated the DVD Forum" standards. However, since the response of the DVD+RW Alliance was to allow DVD+R discs to have their identities falsified with a book type change to "DVD-ROM" in order to play on Panasonic models, those changed discs could also play on ancient DVD players that didn't recognize writable discs at all. That, then, would make DVD+R discs more compatible than DVD-R discs. The difference in percentage of compatiblity, particularly since those ancient DVD players and drives have long been retired, is extremely small and inconsequential these days.

    As for the Lite-On player, you don't specify how the video looks worse. If the picture is jerky or has pixel blocks in it, then it's possible that the players sensitivity boost for DVD+RW discs is set too low and it's having trouble distinguishing the signal. There should be no difference in properly adjusted players.
     
  7. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    Thank you. I don't think I could ask for a better explanation than that. Well, when i play it in the lite-on, everything looks very dark and much redder. I suppose it could be the T.V. but I've never encountered any display difference with anything else. I'll just ignore it. According to what you say it must be something other than the disc so I'm not extremely worried about it anymore.

    Thanks again everyone.
     
  8. Basenco

    Basenco Regular member

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    Here is a link that shows the top blank DVD media quality:
    http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm
     
  9. attar

    attar Senior member

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  10. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The ratings and the information that digitalfaq posts on its site is half correct/half wrong. While it is the only source that rates discs, it is only worthwhile if a reader knows the difference between the accurate and inaccurate information--and such a reader would not need to consult them in the first place.
     
  11. Mrguss

    Mrguss Regular member

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    Is not your Media. Is not your TV.
    Is your DVD Player.

    All DVD Players are diff. internally and also in the way they proyect quality when Playback DVD's in general; even if they are properly adjusted.
    In another hand the quality of HDMI, DVI or RC's component cables you are using to hook the DVD Player to your TV... Play a mayor rule too.

    Hope this help.
     
  12. lordsmurf

    lordsmurf Regular member

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    That's just your opinion. The information is sound, there is nothing inaccurate there. It's a review of discs, and how they compare to one another.

    Most folks that want to argue it wish to include a zillion "if/then/but" type statements, which would make it incomprehensible. Or they dislike that it does not 100% match their own experience, especially as it relates to the unreliable media from CMC and Ritek.

    Indeed, it's up the reader if he wants to learn every tiny bit about their drive and media, to find which lesser-quality discs may or may not work with their specific drive. But most people don't care to get a Ph.D in media, they just want advice on which discs work the best most of the time.

     
  13. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The very first statement on the review page is a grammatical mistake, "Not all media is good." Media are plural. They have been since at least 350 B.C.

    "The media ID indicates the manufacturer." No. It indicates the stamper, and sometimes the code indicates the dye that is used.

    "Reflectivity" is indicated in usage tests." No. Reflectivity is measured by an optical reader. It is seldom a factor in determining whether a disc works or not unless it is expressed with a "T" designation that refers more to the output differences of small pits to large pits.

    Not one of these issues is a matter of opinion. It took less than a minute to find them, and there are scores more of strange claims. On the other hand, the ratings are now more in line with test results. This could be (this is opinion) because drive firmware has caught up to the discs on the market as different disc versions are no longer coming into the market once speed ratings reached 16X. That would mean that good disc once dismissed as "poor quality" are now included in drives' firmware tables, and users are reporting good results.
     
  14. lordsmurf

    lordsmurf Regular member

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    Media can be used singular. Writer's choice.

    Manufacturer vs stamper is one of those nitpick if/then/but situations. In most all cases, it does reveal the manufacturer.

    Reflectivity affects readability, and that guide taking readability into account in disc performance ranks. What good is a "good burn" if it's hard to read? Not really a "good disc" to most people.


     
  15. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    If the meaning of a word is up to the person who uses it, what good is it? Media are plural. One is a medium. (Consult Microsoft's Style Guide.) The fact that many people, and most of the people who "are in the media," are ignorant of the meaning of the word and its usage is no excuse. The word soon becomes meaningless--and that has already started when people refer to sending media across the Internet. They send content in the form of files. The Internet is the medium. (The same thing has happened to "decimate." It means to reduce by a tenth, and the original use of the word in military terms is psychologically sinister. In a world where exaggeration is the rule and "unique" is used to mean "unusual" and "absolutely" just means "yes," "decimate" has been blown up in use to signify a reduction of 90%--just the opposite. Too often the sloppy use of words is an indication of sloppy thinking.)

    "In most cases" is an insufficient definition. MCC supplies stampers to CMC and to Moser Bayer. Seeing MCC or MKK on the stamper does not identify who the manufacturer is. The production code is more useful in that regard because different manufacturers use different methods of ink-jets or laser engraving or, if the owner of the stamper allows, his own code.

    "Hard to read" is rarely due to reflectivity. There are dozens of other far more significant reasons for the failure of a drive to read a disc. My point is that there are many inaccuracies in the website or simplifications that are misleading. These are just a few. I'd be happy to edit some of the material if anyone were interested.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  16. Hellok

    Hellok Member

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    So, films, TV, content, are not media? Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly.
     
  17. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    "Medium" is something in the middle between the author/owner and the intended audience. It is what carries the content, signal, or information. Radio is a medium. So are television, books, newspapers, vinyl records, magnetic tape, and optical discs. Those media that carry the news are "the media" people speak about. Their stories, reports, or video are the content carried through radio waves, paper, or other media/carriers. That content can be in the form of files if the content is digital, and those files are in a particular format that a reader must recognize and interpret. When we watch television, the radio waves or digital pulses and the wires carry the content.

    Every medium has a particular format. Vinyl records have grooves pressed into them that are analogous to the sound waves that originally pulsated a diaphragm in a microphone. They have a slightly different format, however, in terms of RIAA equalization to compensate for some limitations of the stylus/vinyl combination. The same is true for magnetic prints on tape that are analogous to the same sound waves. Both are analogue formats. Digital formats are used in different media, magnetic tape among them. (DVD-/+R are also formatted--it's just that the formata are different from the "packet-writing" formats used by rewritable media.)

    Film is a medium. It comes in different sizes/format. The movie on the film is the content or message. Marshal McLuhan once claimed that for TV, "The medium is the message." What he meant that the medium itself can be part of the content. In TV he meant its immediacy, among other things. For film, one could say the same thing when noting the artistic use of graininess or other idiosyncracies of the film medium that become part of the expression.
     
  18. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    So why is one a "medium" and more than one are "media"? It comes from the Latin where the word is a neuter noun that uses the morphophoneme -a to designate the plural. The same is true for agendum, something to do, that becomes agenda when one has so many one has to make a list. The Greeks followed the same rules for criterion/criteria and phenomenon/phenomena and some other neuter nouns. There is no word such as "criterias" or "phenomenons," but they do appear when undeducated ad agency writers or newscasters with nice hair decide to use big words. It's rather like someone in a tuxedo who has catsup stains on his shirt while he's picking his nose.
     
  19. lordsmurf

    lordsmurf Regular member

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    Because CMC, MBI and Prodisc make MCC/MKM discs with Mitsubishi equipment and materials to Mitsubishi specs (and often with MCC employees overseeing it), the discs are considered to be Mitsubishi-manufactured media. The owner of the real estate where the discs are made is immaterial, as is the information on who issues those workers paychecks. .

    For better or worse, the grammar/usage of the word "media" has changed in the digital age. Arguing it won't change that. To most people, "medium" is a word used for ordering the middle sized food or drink item -- not a vehicle for carrying content.
     
  20. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    Neither CMC nor Moser Bayer use Mitsubishi equipment or personnel to manufacture Verbatim discs. They use Mitsubishi stampers and dye, and they produce according to Mitsubishi specifications (based on DVD Forum specifications). Mitsubishi auditors inspect production. Everything else--from production equipment, materials, processes, and personnel--is up to the CMC/Moser Bayer plants.

    The misuse of words causes confusion. Lack of education or concern promotes misuse and, in turn, confusion. Anone interested in reducing confusion ought to be interested in clarification and accuracy. If the masses begin to believe the earth is flat again, the world will not change its shape.
     

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