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Why is Memorex so bad for burning 360 games?

Discussion in 'DVD±R media' started by pspcow132, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. creaky

    creaky Moderator Staff Member

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  2. bhetrick

    bhetrick Active member

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    Excellent read. Thanks creaky (and also to Joe, of course).

    Let me ask this. Is there anywhere we can go to find out the recommended media code for a specific burner?
     
  3. creaky

    creaky Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know about 'recommended' MID codes, but depending on the burner you can usually get at the contents of the firmware, and again depending on the burner you can even tweak the firmware, for instance where you have a particular disc that has, say 4x, 6x, 8x burn speeds and the burner only caters for 4x and 8x, you can 'make it so' by adding 6x to the firmware for that particular MID code..

    Here's an example ~

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  4. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    creaky--yes, you were always civil. Some people were not, but I'm Irish and my skin is as thick as my head. The last I heard CMC Magnetics makes Verbatim DVD+R and DVD-R discs and the plant in Singapore makes their DVD+R DL discs. Verbatim tried Moser Bayer for all types, but those discs did not work as well. (Moser Bayer used MCC stampers and Mitsubishi dye; but if the molding of the substrate and the manufacturing processes are not exactly right, the proper materials do not yield the best discs. Besides that, Moser Bayer tends to argue with customers while Taiwanese suppliers bend over backwards to try to please customers.)

    bhetrick--the technical people want the best quality possible, but they have to fight salespeople who insist on the lowest price because the retailers insist on the lowest price. I always had to remind sales people that if a product had the best quality and the lowest price, we wouldn't need sales people at all, just order entry people. There has to be a balance. Taiyo Yuden has sacrificed sales and market share in order to offer the best quality. Memorex has internal battles between sales and quality assurance over the balance between the two, and marketing comes down in the middle. The fact that they have such high market share makes it easy for them to insist on high quality from their suppliers, and volume guarantees low prices; but sales people apply continual pressure to get prices even lower. (They get paid commission on the volume they sell. If a customer is unhappy with quality, the technical group and marketing are unhappy; but the sales guy doesn't care. He's already been paid.)

    As far as media codes go, the discs with the greatest compatibility are Verbatim discs and Taiyo Yuden discs (especially the hard-to-find 8X TY discs; their 16X were a bit late to market and have less support in older drives.) Both are Japanese brands. Ritek 8X DVD+R DL are inverse stack discs with good but unpredictable support in only 8X DL drives (Lite-On and LG drives tend to support them) but with lower prices than Verbatim DL because of lower costs. All other DL discs are hit or miss with support.

    I have scores of different types of discs, and I write the name of every drive that works with them on the clear blank that sits on top of each spindle. Discs that "fail" on one drive or another usually work on some other drive, so I only use discs compatible with a particular drive. It's a nuisance, but it works.

    cyprusrom--by plug-'n'-play you mean something as simple and reliable as HDMI? Anybody who has run into HDMI handshake problems should know it's never as simple as it should be. By the time HDMI 1.1 had been sorted out, the marketing guys had jumped to v1.4. This is "progress."
     
  5. bhetrick

    bhetrick Active member

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    So I'm searching for recommeded media for my burners. I have a Sony dru-710a and a Pioneer dvr-111d.

    I did find this pdf from Pioneer which lists the recommended media for the 111d. http://wwwbsc.pioneer.co.jp/product-e/ibs/device_e/pdf/DVR111D_MediaList_129.pdf

    Scrolling down and looking at the double layer, for 2.4x dl's only the mkm 001 (Verbs) are recommended. For 8x they list mkm 003, ricohjpn d01, and ritek s04.

    This is the kind of info which is nice to have.
     
  6. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    The mention of both Ricoh and Ritek mean that your Pioneer drive supports inverse stack media, meaning that you can save some money if you want to choose those DL discs.
     
  7. bhetrick

    bhetrick Active member

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    Now the million dollar question. How do I buy media by the mid code? I know Verbs, there's only one for dl's.

    How reliable is videohelp.com? Scanning through their dvd 9 listings and looking at the common brands I can pick up locally retail, I've found

    - Memorex 8x
    - Datawrite 8x
    - Imation 8x
    - Mitsubishi 2.4 & 8x

    But, that's only if videohelp is current.

     
  8. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    It was never my intention to diss anyone, including peeps with thick hides ... :)
    Yes, I might be a little sarcastic, sorry for that.

    Still, firmware or not, discs should be pret-a-flammé, not subjected to a series of tests on firmware, laser strenght or whatever.
    Funnily enough, most of them are! the Verbatims, the Sonys, the Philipses whatever, they all are ready to burn, raring to go and work with low failure rates.

    So, how do YOU figure that, cyprusrom?

    Question for the panel then:
    1. Is Memorex innocent? That one really rubbed me the wrong way. (Is the failure rate of memorex, which is abysmal imho, entirely NOT that company's responsibility?)
    2. If the other producers can do it, why not Memorex?
    3. Should they have a warning on their discs, saying "might not work 50% of the time"? Okay, maybe not THAT one, but something like "Works only with this and that firmware". I'm really thinking that sueing them might be very profitable, for this reason alone.
    4. Are they to blame for their failure to adapt, where other companies seem to have no problem of doing so?
    5. Why should we "give them a pass" where those other companies don't have memorexs abysmal failure rates?
    6. If one would change or upgrade firmware to work with memorex, who is to guarantee that it would not destroy the drives ability to properly burn other brands?


    Nice. There are no alternates for dollar bills, though.
    And there ARE many alternate products for the memosux discs. Imho again, the car analogy is better.

    Perhap, think about it like this:
    If Britains inclination for imperial measures caused their products to be unuseable for 2/3 of the world, would we then say, oh hey, they are not responsible for their product failures around the world ("innocent")? Would we say, "oh hey, you had the wrong fits, it's just like that?" I think not. If the world changes and everybody seems to have no problem with that, than the Brits have a choice and the responsibility for that choice is theirs alone.

    We would certainly not say "the imperial measure were here first (not sure that they were) so let's adapt to that" !

    yes, yes, the analogy is not perfect but i hope you get it.

    PS
    I'd STILL would like to know where sony tvs can not be used because they break-down because of a 220 voltage .... ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  9. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    Question #1: The rate of failure with Memorex discs using the CMC MAG MID codes is identical to that of all other brands using those same codes. The number of failures is proportional to market share, and in North America Memorex probably still has the largest market share and, therefore, the largest number of problems with incompatibility failures. The incompatibility is not with the brand but with the write strategy and the particular design of the disc. Other brands affected include Imation, HP, TDK, and sometimes Philips. None of them produce discs any more, and each one has THE SAME FAILURE RATE as Memorex.

    Question #2:
    Taiyo Yuden--Japanese; developer of recordable optical discs; supported by Japanese drives
    Verbatim--Japanese; developer of DL media; supported by Japanese drives
    Philips--Dutch; manufactured by CMC using Philips stampers; developer of optical media and keeper of standards; good support by Japanese drives
    Sony--Japanese; developer of optical media; good support by Japanese drives
    Ricoh--Japanese; developer of inverse stack method for DL; manufactured by Ritek; fair support by Japanese drives
    CMC, Ritek, Prodisc, Infodisc, Princo--main Taiwanese manufacturers of optical discs (CMC and Ritek vie for title of largest manufacturers in the world); poor initial support of new discs or new drives, but firmware updates often turn support to good for CMC and Ritek; fair for Prodisc. Infodisc (maybe the largest supplier of rewritable media) has spotty support. Princo, far from the best in terms of paying necessary royalties, has spotty support.

    Those "who can do it" are Japanese brands with close ties to the drive manufacturers. Once Taiwan began to produce more drives than the Japanese, even for Japanese brand drives, compatibility improved.

    Question #3: Good luck with a warning. Wal-Mart had signs over its Emerson DVRs claiming they were compatible with 8X discs for half a year after being told those recorders would only work with 4X discs.

    Question #4: Media are not adaptable. Drives and tape recorders are. That's the process.

    Question #5: see the answer to question #1.

    Question #6: proper adjustment to firmware should only be the addition of instructions for power settings and pulse rates when recognizing a particular MID code. There are no real "guarantees" in life.

    Forget the Sony analogy; poor choice.
     
  10. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    :)) Every time I read one of your posts/arguments, I see myself about 3-4 years ago arguing with Joe...Too stubborn to open up to logic, too much stuck on a preconceived idea.
    To answer you questions, I'd have to say what Joe said, but probably I wouldn't be able to do it as eloquently as he did, he's far more skilled/knowledgeable.

    Is not a matter of "who came first, who's got the bigger guns,that he should make the rule", so discs need to "adapt" to the drives.
    It is based on practical, logical, a point that you keep on missing.
    Before I go back to lurking, I have one last question(one last hope, for a lost soul:)):

    In your view, Memorex/CMC.mag is crappy because they don't "adapt"(make the discs work with most drives). Lets say you have a batch of discs that have been manufactured sometime in July, shipped, distributed, and some are already on the shelves of OffMart, some might still be in some warehouse waiting. How in the name of reason do you "adapt" those discs to every single burner that will come out lets say in a few months, ammm...right before Black Friday for example, and thereafter? If it is not the burners that should have the firmware implemented to be able to read/burn the available plethora of discs, then how do you adapt the discs(which like Joe said, and I probably re-iterated it a few times-are not adaptable!)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  11. JoeRyan

    JoeRyan Active member

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    There is another reason why hardware manufacturers prefer this method: media manufacturers must produce a product in the millions that is precisely consistent with all product of the same type. If an improvement is made that changes performance such as a new dye or new process, then the MID code is changed. And all subsequent millions of pieces match the new version.

    Hardware manufacturers use many more parts, and the supply of those parts is not always consistent. They are free to change laser diodes, motors, lenses, pick-up heads, and so forth. All of these parts are adjustable so that they can be tuned to the discs on the market. (In one famous example, the NEC ND-2100, if I remember the model correctly, swapped laser diodes in the middle of the production cycle. The new diode could be used for DL discs; the original could not. Firmware hacks allowed users to "upgrade" or destroy their drives, depending on which diode was in the drive.) Adaptability of parts allows hardware manufacturers more freedom, and that's why they build in adjustable settings for recording (EQ, bias, firmware, power settings) so that playback meets fixed standards.
     
  12. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    Again, says you, with not even so much as an INcredible link, let alone a reasonable credible one.
    Let's say, I accept this from you, for the sake of argument. Why then do the other brands don't get this many complaints? If, this is true, then apparently they also have non-CMCMAG discs, why not memorex?

    Unbelievable, again hiding behind a lot of irrelevant details and history. I asked WHY Memorex can not do what the other producers have no problem with, and you gave me a blatant example of not answering the question and a list of producers? Take your own advice on reading.

    Again, not answering the question, but mere snickering. I asked for an opinion, instead you give me a history lesson. These are not the same. And please don't tangent into the value of history, I'm aware of that, and it's NOT relevant.

    No, no, no. ALREADY BURNED MEDIA are not adaptable, their stocks and all that. Memorex apparently decided to also NOT update or adapt their production process, because of short term gains which equals long term myopia. Or, did they make enough stock to last them 6 years?
    Also, why do you get to decide that the Memorex PRODUCTION PROCESS is forever the same? Why should drives, or anyone, adapt to a poor product? Yes, it's easier to change or update firmware. So what? Why should other brands do that? It's not their problem. So what if changing memorex production process will cost 10 or 100 times more than updating firmware, it's STIL not their problem

    Again, snickering. But have you even tested this? How do we know that all drives recognize MID codes flawlessly?
    The guarantee in life we DO have NOW, is that memorex discs will fail a lot, much more than other brands.

    .
    Finally! It took you 3 or 4 posts and repeated pounding to admit that one! I can see why you'd want me to forget it. So, hmmm, dunno. It is one of the biggest lacks in logic reasoning as well as an apparent complete absence of everyday and day-to-day knowledge I have come across on a technical board. Especially from someone who appears to have studied at least some discipline, it's odd...

    Maybe I should stick to multiple choice questions ....

    Be of good cheer.
     
  13. creaky

    creaky Moderator Staff Member

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    bonkabonk - You're becoming increasingly irritating now, at least everyone else has constructive comments/technical insight etc, you're just spouting a load of well, unintelligent, ignorant crap. You're entitled to your own opinions but all you offer is a wall of noise. Give it a rest now eh ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  14. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    Just because he outstubborned you, doesn't mean you were wrong. And just cos he overwhelmed you with details, which may or may not have been relevant to your discussion, doesn't mean you were wrong either ...

     
  15. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    AFAIK, we're having a civilized difference of opinion on some technical issues, in which one takes a standpoint and defends that, hopefully with convincing and relevant arguments.

    I'm sorry you feel otherwise, especially since you're a moderator with unlimited powers.

    PS. As you can see, I've asked several times for credible links where we can verify what someone is saying, especially if a lot of knowledge is implied. How is that 'noise'?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  16. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    No, it doesn't...however, I was wrong because my logic was flawed.
    According to your reasoning, lets say Memorex discs are changed this year, the entire plant/stamps/production process is remodeled to make the discs work with all the burners(hypothetically speaking,since is impossible, is like making a 5mm nut fit on a 6,7,8,9...mm bolt).
    What happens next year, when new drives, with new firmware and new capabilities come out, you tear down the factory and start from scratch?

    The discs are not modifiable. The firmware is the adjustable part, flexible, upgradeable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  17. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    Perhaps I wasn't clear. Of course, already produced discs aren't adaptable. But nowhere do I say that they should change already produced discs, but since they have a consistent bad track record, they must have decided to ALSO NOT change the way they make discs, but to continue to make crappy (CMC?) discs, without any product warning. This is what I blame them for, and this might be something that YOU have missed, in my posts. Or?
     
  18. bonkabonk

    bonkabonk Member

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    (We've must have posted at the same time.)
    Perhaps they should do how all the other producers do it?

    No one here has offered me a reason why memorex should be so special that they should try to make less crappier discs. Not that anyone should, don't feel obliged, but im curious.

    Again, why should others waste money, time and resources on something which is not their doing? I'm baffled.
     
  19. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    No, you were very clear...just wrong. You keep failing to see the relationship between discs and burner/firmware.
    When you plug a new piece of hardware in you machine and it doesn't work, who's fault is it? The hardware manufacturer, or the people that write the software, the drivers for your hardware? What do you do, you make a new video card work with every computer on the market, or you just make the card and then update the supporting software/driver(which in our case is the burner's firmware).

     
  20. cyprusrom

    cyprusrom Active member

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    Another point that you missed, or didn't take seriously...Taiwan vs. Japan manufacturers.
    Why would a Japanese drive manufacturer(like most on the market) have a higher support for a Taiwanese disc manufacturer instead of one of their own?
    Politics, business, not giving a flying fudsicle about the consumer.
    I that the consumer's fault? No.
     

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