An Updated Master List Of Players

goodswipe · Apr 10, 2008

Way to go sushi, you're the man!

USB sushi flash drives anyone?

error5 · Apr 12, 2008

Some interesting information regarding the PS3's ability to handle advanced audio codecs:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=51694&page=15
Post #220

Now, regarding the PS3, it is speculated that it uses the SiI9132 (though no one seems to know for sure). The best source I could find to prove this was an SEC filing from Silicon Image in a pdf. Note on page 8 that the SiI9132 and SiI9134 are listed, the SiI9132 for "game consoles" and the SiI9134 for "DVD players". Also note that they have the same specifications.

A curious thing is the SiI9132 is not listed on Silicon Image's HDMI products page (the 9134 is). This has led to speculation that Silicon Image will not publicly release any details about the SiI9132 (which is assumed to be used in the PS3), perhaps due to a NDA. It has been rumored that someone contacted Silicon Image who in turn confirmed that details regarding the SiI9132 are not public and would not even confirm/deny which vendors use the chip. Thus, the bitstreaming of Dolby True-HD and DTS HD-MA via the PS3s SiI9132 HDMI transmitter is still an unknown. From this, one can draw two conclusions:
"In absence of any technical spec on the SiI9132, you can make a case that the SiI9132 is a crippled version of the SiI9134 which does not support advance audio. But you could also argue that the 9132 is just a renamed 9134 and the Silicon Image renamed the chip to get around the fact that they were shipping a million of these chips to Sony before the 9134 was available everyone else in Oct 2006." (taken from here ).

I believe that if anything, the 9132 and 9134 are the same, since the Silicon Image pdf shows them having the same specs, and that the 9132 was just a version of the 9134 specifically designed for the mass produced PS3.

Yet another curious thing is we know the Samsung 1200 uses the SiI9134 from here, but as far as I can tell it still does not bitstream the lossless codecs. Maybe firmware can enable this, but I have seen a lot of people saying the PS3 can't bitstream because it doesn't have the 9134, but the 1200 shows that even with the 9134 bitstreaming still isn't enabled (at least currently). That, imo, also casts a suspicious eye on the "common knowledge" that the PS3 can't bitstream the lossless codecs.

Now, as noted above by insider Sir Terrence:

Quote:
All PIP audio will be mixed in along with the program audio, and the user has access to the audio of all interactive and program material. Whether you choose to do bass management and speaker alignment in the player, or the pcm audio is sent to the receiver for these functions, they are done in PCM because that is how the DSP chips function, is with PCM signals. So no matter which way you turn, the audio will have to be converted.
If the player passes the audio to the receiver in bitstream form, the receiver will have to convert that bitstream to PCM for any bass mangement or speaker alignment to take place. That process is also lossless, and is much like we have seen with legacy Dolby Digital and Dts. The drawback is that no audio from PIP or any interactive material will be heard because this process bypasses the internal mixer of the player.

and more importantly:

Quote:
So no matter which direction you choose, PCM conversion will have to take place whether the player does it, or the reciever does it. In the end, there is no sonic benefit that either has over the other, and why when looked at critically, the receiver doing it becomes a marketing ploy and nothing else.

Thus, the fact that the PS3 currently internally decodes the audio imo suggests that they want to ensure the PiP track is decoded and sent to the player to avoid the noted drawback of bitstreaming (e.g. the bypassing of the internal mixer of the player).

So in conclusion, NO ONE really knows if the PS3 has the SiI9132, and whether or not the SiI9132 is capable of bitstreaming. Some of the information I presented above suggests that the 9132 chip is capable of bitstreaming, but maybe Sony doesn't want to enable due to the PiP audio issue in regards to bitstreaming, especially since we will be seeing more and more "Bonusview" 1.1 Pip bluray releases in the future.

Click to expand...

Ryu77 · Apr 12, 2008

Excellent find error5! That is a very informative and also very accurate portrayal of how the HD audio codecs function.

I just need a HDMI v1.3 receiver now! I've noticed that they are starting to come down in price quite a lot. It shouldn't be too long before I can look at purchasing one.

I wonder if there is any similar article pertaining to the difference of decoding on board and using HDMI v1.3 vs. multi-channel analog connectors?

My logic tells me that HDMI v1.3 will preserve a more accurate signal as it is still digital (PCM) all the way to the receiver. If using analog connectors, the decoded analog signal will have further to travel and will also travel over a connection, this could degrade the sound slightly. I still believe that Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD connected this way will be superior to regular Dolby Digital or DTS, but I think the best way would be to use HDMI v1.3.

Can anyone add some insight to this?

error5 · Apr 12, 2008

Ryu77: Actually, you don't need HDMI 1.3 if you're letting the player decode the soundtrack. Any flavor of HDMI can transmit the decoded LPCM to the receiver. You only need HDMI 1.3 when you're transmitting the undecoded soundtrack bitstream and letting the receiver do the decoding.

I've tried bitstream, LPCM, and 5.1 analogs from my Toshiba HD-XA2 and both bitstream and LPCM from my PS3 and frankly can't tell the difference. I'm using pretty short cable runs - 6 feet or less - and cables with pretty good shielding (bettercables.com, bluejeanscable.com, Acoustic Research etc. - see my equipment in my sig.) You may have to do some adjustments to the LFE levels depending on your equipment and connection type but the end result in my setup results in no audible differences.

There was a post that I read some time ago from Roger Dressler - an engineer at Dolby Labs - where he argued that letting the player do the decoding was much better. I'll look for that link.

There's also a problem reported with bitstreaming DTS-HD MA to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra receivers that resulted in damage to speakers:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008620

Ryu77 · Apr 12, 2008

error5 said:

Ryu77: Actually, you don't need HDMI 1.3 if you're letting the player decode the soundtrack. Any flavor of HDMI can transmit the decoded LPCM to the receiver. You only need HDMI 1.3 when you're transmitting the undecoded soundtrack bitstream and letting the receiver do the decoding.

I've tried bitstream, LPCM, and 5.1 analogs from my Toshiba HD-XA2 and both bitstream and LPCM from my PS3 and frankly can't tell the difference. I'm using pretty short cable runs - 6 feet or less - and cables with pretty good shielding (bettercables.com, bluejeanscable.com, Acoustic Research etc. - see my equipment in my sig.) You may have to do some adjustments to the LFE levels depending on your equipment and connection type but the end result in my setup results in no audible differences.

There was a post that I read some time ago from Roger Dressler - an engineer at Dolby Labs - where he argued that letting the player do the decoding was much better. I'll look for that link.

There's also a problem reported with bitstreaming DTS-HD MA to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra receivers that resulted in damage to speakers:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008620
Click to expand...

Oh yes, I should have realised that. It was just set in my mind that I need HDMI v1.3 for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD, I forgot to consider that this is only the case for bitstream. Thank you for reminding me.

I will still need a receiver capable of HDMI decoding. My receiver only has HDMI pass through. Since my Blu-ray player is my PS3, analog 5.1 is not an option. :-( At this point in time I am using optical for my audio connection. Even that delivers mind blowing audio. I can only imagine how awesome Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD would be!

In regards to your equipment... I already pointed that out on the "Sony wants 50 percent market share for Blu-ray products this year" thread. Where as you know, there was quite a lot of anti Blu-ray nonsense happening.

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/648686/3946893 (towards the end of that post)

I have a decent set-up also. There are 2 pics on my profile.

Pic 1: http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/16117.JPG
Pic 2: http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/17445.JPG

eatsushi · Apr 14, 2008

Update to the list: I added the Philips BD-P7200 Profile 1.1 player that's supposed to come out this month. It features 1080p/24fps, bitstreaming of both True HD and DTS-HD MA, and 5.1 analog out. MSRP is $349 so street prices should be sround $299.

error5: Good catch on that summary from HDD.

I myself can't hear any difference b/w analog, bitstream or LPCM on my Onkyo/B&W 700 series setup. A friend of mine says: Lossless is still lossless no matter how it gets to your speakers. I tend to agree with him.

Ryu77 · Apr 15, 2008

eatsushi said:

I myself can't hear any difference b/w analog, bitstream or LPCM on my Onkyo/B&W 700 series setup. A friend of mine says: Lossless is still lossless no matter how it gets to your speakers. I tend to agree with him.
Click to expand...

Yes, but an important consideration is you would need six high quality cables instead of one.

I personally feel it's a little more complicated than "lossless is still lossless". I am not meaning to disagree with you eatsushi as I have much respect for your input here at AfterDawn. I am simply looking to explore ideas.

Here is an informative article that explains the HD audio formats and the various connection options very well: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064.

Here is one instance extracted from the above link that I found interesting...

Multi-channel analog - In this case, the player converts the PCM to analog and sends it to the receiver for amplification. The quality of the DACs in the player will determine the final audio quality. If the disc player has inferior DACs to the receiver, an HDMI connection is preferred.
Click to expand...

eatsushi · Apr 15, 2008

I understand your point of view Ryu77. But there's the gap between what's on paper and what you can actually hear. I feel the quality of the DAC's in the players I've owned (Panny DMP-BD30 and Tosh HD-XA2) are equal to that of most receivers, so in real life there's really no audible difference that I can hear. BTW I do use HDMI bitstream right now. I plan to try the decoding on the PS3 later after I update.

Here's an article that puts up an interesting notion. He claims that analog signals are less prone to degradation because of lower quality cables and it's more important to have good cables for digital signals:

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/the_truth_about_high_end_cables/C29

Analog signals degrade gracefully. A slightly-damaged analog signal can sound very similar to a good one, such that only trained ears might hear a difference. However, with a digital signal, the effect of even a few uncorrected 0s and 1s is likely to create obvious distortion of picture or sound.
Click to expand...

Maybe dblbogey7 can share his experiences. I know he has an older Rotel preamp/power amp pairing with B&W Nautilus speakers and he uses 5.1 analogs.

Here's our discussion on analog vs HDMI in the HD DVD forum:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/494479

I guess the bottom line depends on what your receiver can support. Those with older equipment may have to settle for analog 5.1 but those with HDMI should definitely use these connections.

eatsushi · Jul 17, 2008

Chinese Players Revealed at SinoCES

No less than TEN models from four different Chinese manufacturers:

http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/desay1.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/desay2.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/hotwell.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/hualu1.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/hualu2.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/hualu3.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/vtrek1.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/vtrek2.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/vtrek3.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/news/vtrek4.jpg

seensters · Jul 17, 2008

ya i know also ur game system will work best with a hd tv

diabolos · Jul 31, 2008

I have been away for a while and I just want to say thanks for the great info and attention to detail eatsushi. I learned something new, Excellent Work!

Ced

Giand · Nov 11, 2008

spam removed

tvs4U · Mar 9, 2009

SPAM removed

critenlee · Aug 22, 2009

Thanks for your sharing. Thanks for sharing this useful information. It's great.

In return i'm going to SPAM you.

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