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and round #1 goes to HD-DVD...

Discussion in 'HD DVD discussion' started by diabolos, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    I have been reading alot of reviews about the new Samsung Blu-ray player and some of the Blu-ray movies. The general feeling I get is that people are having a poor to average experience with some of the Blu-ray movies.

    I have not seen a blu-ray movie yet but some of the specs I am reading have me questioning Sony's buisness plan.

    [bold]First, All the first gen Blu-ray movies are encoded with MPEG-2...[/bold]

    This is a big thing because HD-DVD uses VC-1 for all of it 1st gen movies. VC-1 is MPEG-4 complient meaning that it is more than twice as efficient given the same souce. VC-1 gives a perception of a better picture at half the bitrate and has no MPEG-1/2 encoding articats.

    [bold]2nd, Some of the movies I have seen have 6 channel PCM sound tracks (some even have English and Spanish tracks in PCM). [/bold]

    As most of you know PCM is a uncompressed sound format that takes up alot of space. CD tracks use 2 Channels of PCM at 16/44.1 and uses up about 650 MB of space an hour. Blu-ray movies probably record 6 Channels of PCM at 24/96 which would take up alot more space that could be used for other things like improved picture quality and special features. but I don't know what the PCM streams are yet...

    [bold]3rd; This may be a rumor but I have read that The Blu-ray camp hasn't quite perfected the dual layer BD tech.[/bold]

    Meaning that none of the 1st gen titles exceed 25 GB.

    [bold]4th[/bold], because of the 25 GB limit, use of MPEG-2 for video and PCM for audio, reviewers are finding that there isn't much space for SP. features. At present HD-DVD has used dual layer media for all movies except the ones on hybrid DVD/HD-DVD discs. So for now HD-DVD has a +/-5 GB advantage over Blu-ray.

    [bold]5th.[/bold] Both the Toshiba player and Samsung player use the same chips. The chips de-interlace the source then send them out. The Samsung just turn the 1080i signal back into 1080p.

    If you have seen Blu-ray and HD-DVD demos let me know what you think please...

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2006
  2. mudearies

    mudearies Guest

    good info ^^^ right on man.

    blu-ray for the freaking win. hdvd r.i.p.
     
  3. oofRome

    oofRome Regular member

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    Mudearies: Ced's post was bad news for Blu-ray and good news for HD-DVD. It seemed like you got mixed up, but if not then no harm forget what I just said. :)

    Anyways, I think the reason that blu-ray is in mpeg-2 and hd-dvd is in mpeg 4 has to do with capicity. (Blu-ray has a little more breathing room)
    It doesn't effect picture quality, does it? I was under the impression that it doesn't.

    As for Dual Layer bluray, is it even necessary at this point in time?

    I guess round 2 will be launch sales? Apparently, both had/are having weak launch sales.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2006
  4. tycobb

    tycobb Regular member

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    How are we in round one when niether are doing sh!t?Have they even been released yet?Were still in the pre-fight hype right now.
     
  5. oofRome

    oofRome Regular member

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    Blu-ray launched early this month, and HD-DVD made it's debut a while ago.
     
  6. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Thats right, thanks oofRome. My local CC has the Samsung BD player hooked up to the 50" Samsung (720p) DLP. They where playing House of Flying Daggers. My BB has has the HD-DVD players on display since the end of april (although availability was very limited). They have about 20+ different HD-DVD titles (old and new).

    Oh yea it does. MPEG-4 is a better codec not only because it out preforms MPEG-2 by 2:1 (sometimes 3:1) but also because its video streams don't exibit image artifacts inherent to MPEG-1/2 video encoding schemes! I have read at the AVS forums that MPEG-2 encoders are sometimes tweaked to soften the picture to get rid of the artifacts. That obviously is a bad practice since fine detain is lost.

    Yes Blu-ray has more space but even 25 GB isn't enough when the audio tracks are uncompressed 6 Channel PCM at 24/96. Alot of people are wondering where the Special Features are. Why did they use PCM instead of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD? [bold][rumor][/bold] because the Samsung player doesn't support them! It doesn't even support Dolby Digital Plus! That is why early adopters are disappointed with Blu-ray's first player and titles.[bold][/rumor][/bold]

    By rounds I mean the first HD-DVD player and titles vs. the first Blu-ray player and titles. You know the first impressions. This "Title Fight" guarantees many more rounds before it is over..

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2006
  7. tycobb

    tycobb Regular member

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    yeah I know offrome I was being sarcastic...it was on the freaking afterdawn homepage for 2 weeks how could I miss it.

    The fact is nobody can afford one and Ive seen hardly any content available.Like I said pre-fight hype.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2006
  8. oofRome

    oofRome Regular member

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    Wow. Looks like I have some updating to to in terms of Mpeg 2 vs Mpeg 4. I had always thought that although mpeg 4 had better encoding algorithm (ACE) error correction, etc, it was still under compression constraints in that it had data rates significantly lower than mpeg 2, thus making size (and perhaps convience) the main difference. Maybe I should listen to you a little more.
    Yes but are those PCM ratios confirmed?
    I see what you're saying. Basically, the movies in Blu-Ray were just a little too sloppy. I thought that the extra gigs of room would allow for a little less compression and format tweaking without affecting the quality of the picture/sound.

    But thanks for all the info. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2006
  9. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    No the PCM ratios arn't offical, since no title lists the specs on the back, but my guess was made upon assuming Blu-ray would want to stay competitive. What I mean is that the advanced codecs sample at higher rates than CD (16/44.1) that is 24/96 for Dolby TrueHD and for DTS-HD. PCM at 24/96 would sound as good as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD, the main difference is that PCM would take up twice the space.

    Since we are comparing MPEG-2 to VC-1, MPEG-2 will always be out classed. Increasing the bit-rate doesn't get rid of artifacts inherent in the encoding process.

    ------

    We have the samsung player on display at my BB and must say that I am still a vote for HD-DVD. Even though, the Blu-ray player is connected to the awsome Samsung 40" 1080p LCD vs. the HD-DVD player that was hooked up to the still good Westing House 42" 1080p LCD. The picture just looks soft to me for a $1,000 player.

    [bold]Correction[/bold] The Samsung BD player does support DD+ but it doesn't support Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD (according to the Samsung Web site!).

    Samsung BD-P1000 Spec sheet...
    http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Blu_ray/files/bdp1000_final.pdf

    ------

    Some very intresting poll results...

    HD-DVD:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...&highlight=Poll

    Blu-ray:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690621

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2006
  10. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Found this Dolby audio format comparison table in the Dolby web site...

    [​IMG]

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  11. dblbogey7

    dblbogey7 Guest

    Thanks for the info Ced. It's interesting to note that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Tru-HD are only OPTIONAL for BluRay. It's also important to point out that Samsung's BDP-1000 does not support advanced audio codecs thru HDMI.
     
  12. plutonash

    plutonash Regular member

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    Thanks for the chart copied it for future reference. Also can mudearies be banned "again" his a really bad PS3 fanboy (the worst ever) he didnt even read the original post on this thread and spams all 3 the next gen console forums with blantant lies and weird theories on how the Ps3 with make PC go the way of the dinosaur. Argh Im not for Sony or against them but this guy gives them a bad rep.
     
  13. SOCOMII

    SOCOMII Regular member

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    if you want somebody to be banned just report their post
    [​IMG]
    then a mod will look into it and no need for anybody to get mad at anybody.
     
  14. DamonDash

    DamonDash Guest

    Look guys there is not going to be any kind of fight Samsung and just about everyone else said that they are makeing a Mutiformat player that going to play Blu-Ray & HD-DVD & also upconvert you regular DVD's.So this should put the rest this so called fight.Blu-Ray & HD-DVD is not here to replace DVD its just here to enhance things.
     
  15. eatsushi

    eatsushi Regular member

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    http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/samsungs-hd-dvd-blu-ray-combo-player-just-in-case/

    note the big IF - IF HD-DVD is AS SUCCESSFUL as BluRay...

    Except for LG Electronics I don't see any other manufacturers even thinking of a combo player. Paging Ced....

    I beg to disagree. I'm of the opinion that once you've seen a film in glorious HD on an HD display - especially if it's 1080P - there's just no turning back. I don't really care which format wins as long as HD discs thrive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2006
  16. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

  17. DamonDash

    DamonDash Guest

    HD-DVD cant even go up to 1080p yet only Blu-Ray.1080P tech is still new right now only a few TV's on the market can reach 1080p and you can count them all on your hand.
     
  18. dblbogey7

    dblbogey7 Guest

    I agree with eatsushi.

    Once you have experienced high def you will never want to watch your favorite movies on standard def again.

    As Ced pointed out before HD-DVD discs are encoded in 1080P. The Toshiba player only outputs 1080i thru HDMI but my Sony SXRD scales the 1080i to 1080p and the results are simply amazing. The next gen players and displays should be able to output and accept 1080P thru HDMI.

    About the combo players - it's interesting that Samsung and LG -both Korean companies- are the only ones considering combo players for now. I wonder why that's the case.
     
  19. mudearies

    mudearies Guest

    3 reasons blu-ray should win.

    1.almost twice the data of hdvd.
    2. ahrder to scratch.
    3.made by Sony.

    the reason why blu-ray will win. Sony Ps3.
     
  20. dblbogey7

    dblbogey7 Guest

    ROTFLMAO!

    mudearies strikes again!
     

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