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Authoring multi-channel LPCM on DVD's

Discussion in 'High resolution audio' started by tireland, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    This type of discsion does bother me. Why in the world do we have so many formats. Yes I know every company needs their peice of the pie. But look at the first the problem with DVD's you have people argueing over DVD- and DVD+. Now we have the same issue with DVD-A and SACD. If one is approvable by the DVD forum (as in DVD-A) why doesn't the forum just charge Sony a royalty for messing things up and releasing a nother format to confuse people. (Sorry I had to get that out)

    But seriously if software companies got their act together and release a Home or Family version of authing software for either DVD-A and SACD, then we might have a winner and then our audio will be availble. Classic lost music recordings I would love to see come back (lots of stuff on record still hasn't be release). I think we do need a format.
     
  2. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    olk: you dont have to do the hard-returns when posting :) It's dont automatically :)

    Because its in the name of progress and competition (note the sarcasm)

    I'm a noob when it comes to audio crap but isnt DVDA on a DVD and SACD .... on a CD? That's a world of difference as it is :)

    God i hear ya :p
     
  3. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    As far as I can tell both SACD and DVD-A are on "DVD" type media using very similar lazers to read them. The main difference is the way the data is stored and computed to produce the sound. Please correct me wilkes if that statement is incorrect.
    Since so similar, I just feel that what is realy hurting these companies and stoping me from buying either right now is which will be around. I have reading about this since Oct 2003 and still now win in or out. I am still buying Records. Yes I can still find some good ones here in Toronto and don't what to fully convert untill this is sorted out.
    I only have a SACD connected to my current Sony DVD player, so I have only heard the SACD format.

    I think what you might be think Preator is SACD were the first to include both CD player and SACD player conpatible tracks. DVD-A now offers it, a CD player track and DVD-A tracks.
     
  4. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    One of the really weird things in all this is that both Sony & Philips actually own patents relating to DVD-A!

    The only real difference between the two formats, IMO, is that SACD uses a format called DSD for storing/recording the audio, and DVD-A uses good old PCM.
    There are many, many arguments in favour of PCM over DSD, and if anyone emails me I can provide these with pleasure (I guess it's obvious by now where my prejudices are, so I'll keep this brief).

    DSD uses 1 bit technology at an absurdly high sample rate, and an enormous amount of noise shaping to keep the HF Noise inaudible. It is an anomaly, not an advance (again, I stress that this is just my opinion) and it is a fact that SACD actually sounds better when played back through Linear Phase 20KHz LP filters. Which kind of destroys the entire high samplerate argument the format is based on.

    DVD-A uses from 16 to 24 bit PCM, at samplerates from both 44.1KHz & 48KHz families, at up to 88.2/96KHz in Surround, and 192KHz in stereo.
    You can also add in a Video layer for compatibility with every DVD player out there. Admittedly this will usually be in 16/48 stereo (not really worth using 24/96 stereo audio on the Video layer, as a lot of DVDV players will truncate this straight down to 16 bit & halve the sample rate back down to 48KHz) but can be up to 24/96 stereo.
    So at the worst it is still better than CD, at 16/44.1 even in compatibility mode.

    SACD currently has the advantage of being playable in a standard CD player, but only in CD resolution so no advantage really.
    It is also a common thing for the CD layer to be "butchered" to make the SACD layer sound better. This is not me being paranoid, but a well known little trick that has been admitted to. Can't for the life of me find the link, but will post it as soon as I find it again.

    You pays yer money, and take your choice.
    Or not - judging by sales at the moment.
    One thing is for sure - the so called "format war" is doing nobody any favours, so the sooner Sony lose it the better :)
     
  5. olk

    olk Member

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    *OFFTOPIC*

    @praetor: i have to key in the hard returns, otherwise the text will look pretty ugly formatted, thats my browsers fault (mozilla for linux, btw), especially cut-pasted text, gets heavyly 'out-of-order'

    greets from germany
    olk
     
  6. Prisoner

    Prisoner Guest

    Thanks Wilkes, I thought so about the SACD. I remember mentioning that I noticed that with a Bob dylan CD/SACD that they give you for free with a SACD player. The CD version is about par with low grade mp3s.

    Question, does the SACD sound better than DVD-A with the 20 khz filter? Or did you mean then just before?
     
  7. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    To me, DVD-A sounds much more natural & "open" than SACD. Even through the 20KHz LPF, which to my mind kind of defeats the point of SACD given that you do not have the extended dynamics in a 1 bit system that you get with PCM at 24 bit, SACD seems, well, strained by comparison.

    I guess it is very much a case of hobson's choice at the moment, especially since there are MC releases coming out usually on either one format or the other. What would be very helpful is a release on both formats simultaneously then we could hear for ourselves what the difference is.

    I still think that a well recorded/mixed/produced/mastered Red Book CD sounds better than SACD.
    But I'm a PCM fan, and think that DSD is an anomaly.
    BTW, I am more than happy to supply documentation from serious Audio engineers/designers who go into the details a ot closer than I can even comprehend. Just mail me offlist, and ask for PCM/DSD documents.
     

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