In general, I think that anyone wishing to put music-cds onto a dvd just *occassionally* will likely try upsampling to 48K just to be able to use readily available dvd-burning software, (make .vob's, instead of .aob's) and standard (read: inexpensive) DVD set top players. That's if they really want to put audio cd onto DVD, and are not bothered by possible (audible) upsampling artifacts . Other than that, to buy Minnetonka's Steel or, in particular, Chrome DVD-A burning software, is an expensive option that is best left to folks who need to make DVD-A discs for a living. (Just my opinion). I downloaded the Steel Demo version, and I must admit, it was fun to use. The 16/44.1 waves were accepted readily as 2-channel stereo files. Also, I can see how the Menu would be laid out. If I had hundreds of music cds (I don't), then steel would be something I would look at if for no other reasons that it would a) dramatically reduce the storage space needed to store them, and b) obviate the need to buy a more expensive dvd- (or cd) -changer. Ah well, at least I no longer have to wonder about "the age-old question" any more. -- Mike --
Discwelder really is a top application. As far as players go, more and more of the newer ones are DVD-A compatible now, it's only the earlier or cheaper ones that won't recognise the format. Agreed on the coaxial outputs too - it's well worth investigating the setup menus on the DVD-A players to make sure that the digital outputs aren't downsampling the signal - some do, some don't - but the ones that do seem to drop from 96KHz to 48KHz. There is also the option of using the internal converters and outputting in analogue from the player. Panasonic do a DVD-A, DVD-V, SACD, MP3 etc etc combo for about £150. Can't remember the model off the top of my head. There's also the Limit DVD9900SE which outputs at 96KHz as well as 6 discrete analogue outs. Tigre - for $500, discWelder Steel is not really for pro's, but IMO aimed at the consumer market instead. It's not expensive when you consider what it is capable of. We all spend vastly more money on our hifi systems, so that amount for the software to actually author genuine DVD-A discs that are 100% set top box compatible is really quite cheap! WilfredH - welcome to the club! You'll never go back now. Have fun, and good luck to you sir!
As I haven't said something like "crating DVD-A's is too expensive / not worth while / ..." I guess you're referring to the last post of A_Klingon with this. Anyway, I believe in silent home-entertainment PCs with decent soundcards.
I'm using the JVC XV-SA600BK DVD/Audio-Video player, from DVD City <http://www.dvdcity.com/codefree/jvc600.html> as I wished to view a TV series from the UK and play DVD-A discs too. I love this machine, it does lots of nice things and is truly hassle-free to operate. It's HIGHLY recommended in the reviews! The entire sound card marketplace is, umm, unclear right now I think, so which of the cards do you gentlemen like and why? The current splash in this field is the new SB Audigy Platinum EX, what downsides are there with this one and do these matter? I really like knowing that the DVD-As I burn are the exact correct format--- due to DWelder STEEL. With the crazy DVD player marketplace, making correct format discs is very important. I have lots of arguments w/my friends who were convinced their DVD players were the latest and best, only to discover that their DTS and DD5.1 are poor substitutes for real DVD-A sound. Yes, I haul the JVC about to let them hear the differences. Yes, I'm Hooked on DVD Audio now and IT'S FUN, thanks for the welcome. No going back!
WilfredH - I'm using the Nuendo RME HDSP9652 Audio Card, 24 ADAT in/out plus SP/DIF, MIDI and the onboard TotalMix for Zero Latency Monitoring with the Nuendo 96K 8I/O ADC/DAC all hooked up via lightpipe. I get 24 in at up to 48KHz and 12 in @ 96KHz. Does absolutely everything I want it to and a little bit more.I'll check out that player as I need another one now. Keep in touch & let me know what you get up to.
Wilkes, Can you prepare a set of test files with DVD-Audio to all of us and put them somewhere on net? It can be one old (and then free) song, so files would not be large. With these files I will burn DVD-R and can test if my standalone DVD can play DVD-audio. Brgds, Bob
How are you going to burn the DVD-R unless you have DVD-A authoring software? What files, exactly, do you want me to post?
What files? Maybe Audio_TS directory? Or disc image... I'm not sure, it is just an idea how to check the player in practice. Bob
Disc image might work, but possibly not. You need a DVD-A compatible authoring program, or the disc just won't be recognised. A quick way of telling if your player is DVD-A compatible is to look for 6 analogue outputs from it. If it only has digital, chances are it won't read a DVD-A disc
My discovery re DVD-A discs is they will NOT be recognized by any DVD player if--- 1) the player is NOT a DVD-Audio machine. The DVD logo on the front of the machine MUST state "DVD AUDIO/VIDEO" or (rare machine) "DVD AUDIO" alone. Evidently this logo must say either of the above by some licensing requirement upon the manufacturers. 2) the DVD disc has to contain VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS tracks embedded into a GROUP structure that the DVD player recognizes from within it's firmware--- ie that firmware expects this above directory/folder structure or the disc IS rejected. Notice this hierarchy structure is (deliberately) different from what PC computers expect. See what we all go through because the DVD-A format details are held as a non-disclosable secret by the various manufacturers--- just try finding out these details on the 'net. If one of you does find out all this, PLEASE post the details or link at this site--- as a Public Service to the Great_Music_Community. I use DiscWelderSTEEL to exactly create the proper DVD directory structure, thus making my burned DVDs work in a DVD-AUDIO player. I suspect the marketplace shall slowly sell off the DVD-VIDEO machines (most of what is for sale now) before we start seeing very many DVD-AUDIO/VIDEO players for sale. The manufacturers just cannot afford to junk all those machines, an unsuspecting public will empty the sales channel, only to later discover they cannot play commercial DVD-AUDIO discs. The DVD logo is often silver type (letters) upon a silver background--- a nasty little industry trick to enhance sales (of the wrong machine) to the unsuspecting public.
Wilfred, I believe you are correct. I didn't think that any other way would work, and the point about the older DVD players is cynical, but probably true. The problem is a LOT of people are under the impression that Dolby Digital or DTS is proper surround sound - they've never heard uncompressed waves as a genuine DVD-Audio disc. Also, discWelder is the cheapest option, and the only other apps at present that can even author DVD-Audio are the chrome version and the ludicrously expensive Sonic DVD Creator.
Hello all--- I just came across a very helpful LINK to the DVD-A and DVD-V data structures, with explanations of the "pieces"--- Audio Objects (AOB) and Video Objects (VOB) and the GROUP structure. All of these have to exist upon a DVD-A disc to make it "valid". See http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/dvd-benchmark-part-6-dvd-audio-11-2001.html
Hi--- I've discovered another helpful (and technical) LINK from Pioneer Electronics, at http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/5-3-e.html Slowly our mysterious DVD-Audio succumbs to insight! Bill Hansen
Wilfredh, thank you for those two links! They are bookmarked now, and I will be spending some time with them later. There is far far too little information available regarding honest, genuine DVD-Audio. If the owner's manual for the next dvd player I consider purchasing fails to say that it specifically supports the DVD Audio format, I will not be purchasing that player. One can only speculate how much of a deterrent to dvd-audio the SACD format is, but if more people were to buy dvd-audio-capable machines (whether knowingly or not), that *could* spur the general awareness of the format and encourage content providers to augment the really poor selection of genuine dvd-audio titles that currently exists, and -- god only knows -- might even help create a market for less-expensive dvd-audio authoring software. Obliged. -- Mike --
Agreed 110% with this! As already posted though, the manufacturers are getting rid of all their older generation DVD players with sale prices that have to be less than the cost price, and bunging in a load of old back-catalogue movies with them doesn't help. If you are in the market for a genuine DVD-A machine, as well as it's manual take a look around the back for 6 analogue outputs. If it has these, the chances are it'll play DVD-Audio discs too. Not only that, but also check for built-in DTS & DD decoders, as well as trying to ensure the beast doesn't downsample to 48KHz. Let's try and get this format happening. On the positive side, although there are only around 500 DVD-A titles currently available, there will be another 3000 added in the next year. Finally, DVD-A is the only hi res multichannel format that home users will be able to author. SACD/DSD recorders are in the region of $100,000 a throw, and Sony won't sell them yet.
Isn't it odd, wilkes? DVD-Audio, the "great-unknown format" is already, by default far superior to the original red-book audio music cd, but very few people realize this! 5.1 channels of lossy-compressed audio (yes - even the highly-touted DTS system included), regardless of it's apparent realism, cannot make up for 6 channels (or even two) of honest, uncompressed high-resolution audio!! I've dropped a gentle suggestion to R.H. Moore (321 Studios, makers of DVDXCopy). They are currently releasing new types of software in their product line-up, and I was kinda hoping they might also consider something like, (oh, say), [bold]DVD X Audio[/bold]. You never know(?!) I'd be interested in knowing just [bold]how[/bold] a piece of software records the AOB files. From a technical standpoint, I doubt very much if there's any black-magic involved. I believe that VOB files are simply burned as data files, (are they not?) but red-book audio is formatted differently. (Uses less error-correction than data-file-recording, but takes greater advantage of each disc sector's available space). With dvd-recordables, space is not a problem, so the extra error-correction can easily be 'put back', and indeed, maybe AOB files, like their VOB counterparts, are simply data files. I also wonder why, after all this time, the audio companies (record labels) only [bold]now[/bold] are contemplating upping the 500 titles to 3000 by next year? Took 'em long enough, don't you think?
I did some web checking on the producers of DVD-A commercial music discs and came up with these 10(I'm looking for the "500" available discs)-- Warner Bros. Reprise Records EMI Records Rhino Records Virgin Records BMG Silverline AIX Media Corp. Chesky Records (bunch of smaller specialty) Record Cos. David Chesky of Chesky Records has a posted article stating the irrational fears of the major Record Cos. re user copying is holding back the quality of sound users can hear from their Audio Systems. See-- http://www.chesky.com/News/body_dvdnewsdetail.cfm?fSYSID=37&fNewsDetail=True I didn't like being cynical or "conspiritist" in my past thread submissions re the Industry, the RIAA in particular, but I think we are Audio pioneers stuck on that sort of playing field. We all just have to live with this nonsense as we try to author our own DVD-A discs.
Chesky is an audiophile force to be reckoned with, and has been for years. Sadly, however, although I see 26 SACD titles in their catalogue, I only see 1 (ONE) real DVD-Audio title (Bucky Pizzarelli-Swing Live 2/4/6 Multi-Channel). Hmmmm...... Given the dismal lack of dvd-audio titles in general, I think one of the best possible uses for dvd-authoring software in the interim, would be the transferring of precious vinyl recordings (Half-Speed-Mastered Mobile Fidelity Master Recordings come to mind, but any high-quality vinyl would do) directly to 96/24 or even higher. And any direct-cut 45 rpm audiophile LP would blow the doors off any red book cd ever made. (I used to have some dandies pressed into white vinyl). [sigh.........] I miss my "audiophile days". Denon DVP-790 Direct Drive turntable; Shure V-15 Type IV hyper-elliptical, Monster interconnects....... [sob!]
