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DVD-Audio watermarks

Discussion in 'High resolution audio' started by stephano1, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    My DVD-Audio backups made with DVDfab 5 seem work in players that detect watermarks. DVD-Audio compilations made from various disc will only play in a player that does not detect watermarks. My Oppo 980HD does not detect watermarks, my Samsung does. Therefore, it seems that clones will play in most players, regardless of watermarks, as long as they are decrypted.
    I use DVDfab5 Platinum to make an image, Anydvd to extract the VIDEO_TS, because some video features do not work properly when using DVDfab5 alone. I use Imgburn to combine the AUDIO_TS from the DVDfab5 iso, and the VIDEO_TS extracted with Anydvd. My backups work perfectly in either player. My compilations only work in the Oppo.
     
  2. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    That's interesting.
    I knew there was an option to decrypt - but did not realise it broike it completely.
    Nice find.
     
  3. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    Decrypted tracks from watermarked DVD-Audios will not play in any player that detects watermarks, unless they apear to be on the original disc. The decrypted clones I have made play in every player I tested them in, because the watermarked tunes match the disc. If you want to make compilations, you need a player that does not detect watermarks. Making compilations is too time consuming for me. Finally working backups are possible. That is great news, because most of my DVD-Audios are out of print.
     
  4. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    I knew that a decrypted (as in ripped) disc still had issues with watermark honouring players - what I did not know was that a clone made with this app works in all players.
     
  5. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    If you rip watermarked tunes from a DVD-Audio disc and use those tunes to reauthor a new DVD-Audio disc, that disc will not play in a player that honors the watermark. To play a compilation I rip the tunes with DVDAExplorer2008.07.21, downmix to stereo, convert to wave, and play them on my computer with spdif out to my receiver.
    I have made a few compilation discs, those disc only play in my Oppo 980HD. The Oppo does not honor watermarks. Watermarked tunes must appear to be on the original disc in order to play on a player that detects watermarks. Decrypted clones appear to the player to be original, and seem to play perfectly.
     
  6. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    So you're saying that DVDFab HD decrypter - set to remove CPPM AFAIK - will strip the watermark?
    Can't see it myself, although it will be very nice to be wrong.
    I will try this and see.....
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  7. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    Watermarks do not matter, as long as the watermark detector thinks the tunes are on the original disc.
     
  8. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    You don't need to strip the watermarks, as long as the watermarks match the file on the disc the player uses to identify the disc as original. If yo made a compilation, the watermarks will prevent the tunes from playing, unless your player does not detect watermarks. Tunes from various discs have different watermarks that can never match up. If you make a decrypted clone with the watermarks intact, they wil still play, because the watermarks match the disc.
     
  9. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    So - what settings to use then?
    I am guessing that the "Main Disc" option won't work, and only a full clone will. Is this correct?
    (Full Clone will require DL discs mainly)

    EDIT.
    It does not work - as I suspected it would not.
    Just cloned a watermarked disc (Donald Fagen, The Nightfly).
    Cut to silence at the first watermark (30 seconds in).
    I cloned the complete disc, and burned from the application.

    Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
  10. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    What player are you using? All of my clones play in my watermark honoring Samung HD841, and I know they are watermarked. I use the platininum version of DVDfab5. I check the copy original ifo box only, and I burn the discs with the book type set to DVD-Rom.
    None of the compilations I have made will play past the first watermark in the Samsung. All the compilations will play in my Oppo.
    If a watermark is present, the clone must appear to be original, or it will not play past the watermark. You can copy the watermarks. The file on the disc that identifies the watermark must match the disc.
     
  11. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    The .MKB file is present on all watermarked discs. That file and the watermarks must be present and match, or they won't play.
     
  12. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    I think the .MKB is related to the CPPM, and not the watermark.
     
  13. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    That is correct - this is the file that holds the information for the CCI bit setting, which controls copying.
    There are several options for this setting, including digital copying (CD Stereo, CD Surround, no restrictions, or 3 copies with restrictions etc) as well as the analogue settings to protect the imagery & related video streams.
    This is nothing to do with watermarking. Watermarking is embedding a deliberate signal in the original audio before it gets encoded to MLP, or multiplexed into an AOB. It is very robust.
    I have tried everything to eliminate these and it is impossible.
    Following things have been attempted.
    1 - Decode MLP to PCM, reencode to MLP = X
    2 - Decode to PCM, encode to DTS, decode to PCM, reencode to MLP = X
    3 - Decode, encode to DD, decode, reencode = X
    All I can do is decode to PCM & re-encode to DTSHD & play off the desktop via DTSHD StreamPlayer.

    I have tried several single layer watermarked discs - all fail.
    The disc clones, no worries there, but as soon as my Denon hits watermark #1 (usually at 30 seconds in) the player goes into STOP mode.
    It is a myth that the .MKB file carries any watermarking information - it does not. Eliminating CPPM is a totally different thing, and this is what DVDFab HD does. (I bought the Platinum version to try this out on a DVD5).
    If you got a watermarked disc copied, what settings did you use?
     
  14. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    I have two dvd players, an Oppo 980HD, and a Samsung HD841. The samsung detects watermarks. The Oppo does not. I have made several compilations. None of the compilations will play in the Samsung. All the compilations will play in the Oppo. I have backed up over 20 of the original DVD-Audios I own, as many are out of print. I can play the backups in both players with no lose of fidelity. If you have the Donald Fagen available for download, it probably won't play properly in a player that detects watermarks. It may have been reauthored. Any disc reauthored will not pass watermark detection. The disc must pass as the original or the watermark will prevent playback. You can't remove the watermark, but the watermark can and will be copied. That is not a problem, as long as the watermark detector thinks the disc is original, the copy will will play. The copies pass as originals in my Samsung. I rip the discs to an image with DVDfab 5 Platinum, in clone mode, check copy original ifo, but do not check the other box. If the videos do not play properly, I use AnyDVD to rip the VIDEO_TS, and combine it with the AUDIO_TS from the decrypted image. I use Imgburn in build mode to combine the two folders. Do not modify the menue structure of the VIDEO_TS.
     
  15. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    I will try my clones in more players, but I need to drive 20 miles to find a place that sells them. Try your clones in other players. The Denon probably has a "Hi-Fidelity" watermark detector, special op-amps, capcitors, wiring, and price tag. My Samsung may have a generic watermark detector, ordinary op-amps, cheap capacitors, and such. The Oppo 980HD is great sounding, cheap, and does not detect watermarks. Buy one, backup your DVD-Audios and store the originals. Hey, my "Brain Salad Surgery" is in a cool dry place, I have An image on a 650 gigabyte hardrive, if the copy fails, I throw it away and make a new one. Go buy a "machine Head"! It's $169.00 on Ebay. I have it on SACD, and DVD-Audio. They won't leave my hands. I bought "Hotel California" on Amizon for $24.95 from Australia. I got the last new one available at retail price. Yeah, I love my DVD-Audio, and I'm an avid collector.
     
  16. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    DVD-Audio discs that contain the AUDIO_TS folder only, can't be decrypted with Dvdfab5. DvdFab5 thinks they are data disc, and won't decrypt them. I know, I own Roy Orbison's "Black And White Nights". It does not have a VIDEO_TS folder and I can't make a backup. I can rip the individual tunes with DVDAExplorer2008.07.21, but they will not play in the Samsung.
     
  17. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    I have to admit I have never heard of a disc with no Video_TS before this - it's extremely rare, because you're limiting sales to Audio players - which from the label's point of view is plain silly.

    Regarding the cloning.
    This I know.
    This I had wrong then - I did *not* have that box (original IFO) checked and will try again with this checked. Obviously I did not have the check to remove Video_TS - it wouldn't be a clone then.
    This makes no sense at all. According to the Verance documentation, a watermark detection circuit is a watermark detection circuit. There are not (AFAIK) different types of detector.
    The clone I attempted refused to work in any of our 3 players (2 denon, 1 Cambridge Audio) and entered STOP mode at 30 seconds.
    Will try again on an RW this time, I think.......
    What are you using to break the ISO obtained from DVDFAb? Will this work if the straight ISO image is written with IMGBurn?
    Will it work if the VSO Burn engine is used, or is this a mistake?
    Okay - these things shouldn't (at least, not in theory) make a difference, but not all burn engines are created equal.....
    Final thing - what build of IMGBurn?

    Will post back later.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  18. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    You do not have to remove the VIDEO_TS. If the video features do not play correctly after ripping with DVDFab5 Platinum, I use AnyDVD to process the VIDEO_TS, and ImgBurn to create a DVD-Audio using the VIDEO_TS from AnyDVD and the AUDIO_TS copied from the DVDFab 5 ripped and decrypted iso. If the videos play correctly from the ripped iso, you do not need to take this extra step. This extra step is necessary with certain discs, if you want fully functional playback. You can make a working disc with the AUDIO_TS folder alone, but it will not ply in a DVD video only player. My "Black And White Nights" DVD-Audio is part of a two disc set. That disc has great sound. It will be awesome on Blue Ray. Same sound quality as the DVD-Audio along with the video.
     
  19. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    ImgBurn 2.4.2.0 is what I use.
     
  20. stephano1

    stephano1 Member

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    I copy and paste the Audio_ts from the decrypted iso to different folder and add the AnyDVD processed VIDEO_TS to that folder and use ImgBurn to make a new iso. I do this only when the video features from the DVDFab5 iso do not play. That wil happen with some discs, The Doors L.A. Woman for example.
     

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