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:: DVD rebuilder & return of the king... dissapointing results...

Discussion in 'DVD / BD-Rebuilder forum' started by babelfish, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Well, I'm sorry to report setting "quality_prec" to 20 did not seem to yeld a different result from using the default 16. :/

    vurbal, do you think it'd be worth trying a setting of 30 (or higher), or shall I just skip this step and try the UnDot filter?
     
  2. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd start with UnDot just to see what it looks like, and then start messing with the quality_prec again. If you extract the lines from Rebuilder.ecl that I mentioned earlier for just that segment, you can change it manually in the new file. For CCE Basic the line actually says pict_qchar=#. If you want to make it even easier, you can just change it within CCE after you load the ECL by double clicking the name of the AVS file. Just look near the lower right corner for the slider that says Flat Part Priority. You can set the number directly by typing it into the text box.
     
  3. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  4. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Ok, I managed to identify the segment I wanted to test with the UnDot filter, and created a new ECL file ("CHARGE.ECL").
    Question #1: how is it "pict_qchar" is 31, when 20 was set as the quality_prec in DVD-RB?
    What should I set it to so that it corresponds to 30 in DVD-RB?

    Question #2: how would I go about adding the "UnDot" filter command to the corresponding AVS file?
    Thanks in advance. :)
    _
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small][​IMG]

    For DVD Shrink and related softwares guides and information, please visit http://www.dvdshrink.info[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  5. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    That's an interesting question. It's possible that Basic uses a different scale, just like SP 2.5 and SP 2.6x use different scales (DVD-RB takes the value for 2.6x and converts to the 2.5 value), but I've never heard anything that would suggest that's the case.

    I just looked at a couple of projects I haven't encoded yet, and I'm seeing the same issue. One project was set to the default value of 16, but the ECL was set to 24. The other was set to 20, but the file says 31 so unless CCE Basic is using a different scale, they should be the same. Actually, come to think of it, that may be the 2.6x to 2.5 conversion we're getting.

    Edit: I guess I didn't actually answer the other part of your question. After the Trim filter and before the ConvertToYUY2 filter would be where you want to add UnDot. The file would look like this:

    Before you add the line, you'll need to make sure you download the UnDot filter and copy the DLL from the archive to E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ so it will autoload. You can find the download on this page:
    http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

    Edit 2: Apparently CCE Basic does use the same scale as CCE SP 2.5, so the values are fine.
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
    DVD Rebuilder Guides: http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial.cfm http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial_advanced.cfm[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  6. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    vurbal, thank you very much for your help. :)

    I'm now able to test different settings and filters on any part of a title, in minutes.
    Much better than having to wait 6-7 hours for a complete backup. :D

    Doc, don't you think it was worth the effort? :p
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small][​IMG]

    For DVD Shrink and related softwares guides and information, please visit http://www.dvdshrink.info[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  7. Sophocles

    Sophocles Senior member

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    OK, everyone, let's get along. If you guys didn't have each other you'd all be bored to tears. You in effect keep each on other sharp, current, and on your toes.

    Vurbal

    Have you ever written a short response? I had to clean my reading glasses at least three times trying to read them.:) LOL
     
  8. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Hi Sophocles. :)

    vurbal, I have now tried using "UnDot" and cannot see any significant improvement.
    The three backups look actually identical to me. :/

    http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/CCE_TESTS_7.zip (4MB)

    Just to make sure, here are the ECL and AVS files I used...
    In the example you gave me, you wrote "UnDot()".
    Shouldn't it be "Undot()" or does it make no difference?
    Also I have just read the plugin needs loading first, as in: "LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\undot.dll")". Would that be correct?
     
  9. Sophocles

    Sophocles Senior member

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    Double "D'! Vurbal!

    If this is a contest to see who can make the longest post then let me say that Vurbal wins by a small margin.:) (note the use of smilies). LOL
     
  10. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    Well you know what they say - if you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance....

    Edit: See - a short post 8D
    Mark it on your calender cause you might not see another one for a while.
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
    DVD Rebuilder Guides: http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial.cfm http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial_advanced.cfm[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  11. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    AviSynth isn't case sensitive so it doesn't matter.
    It depends. Using LoadPlugin will guarantee it works because it explicitly tells AviSynth the location of the plugin. For most installs it won't matter as long as you put the DLL in the plugin directory (E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ in your case) so they'll autoload. Some people need it anyway, because sometimes programs hijack the registry entry for the plugin directory, which will cause plugins in the default plugin directory to not autoload. If that happens you'll know it because you'll get an error instead of your video.

    I had a feeling that UnDot wouldn't do much, simply because I could see that the noise was at least mostly bigger than individual pixels. Unfortunately that's the price you pay for non-destructive filtering. It doesn't fix bigger problems. I think Deen is probably the best filter to use with it. I'd still leave in UnDot because it's probably removing noise that you may not notice, but which may still effect the encode (or just help Deen out a little). You might also want to set the Quant Characteristics (pict_qchar) back to 16 (24 if you're not changing it through DVD-RB).

    Now that I've looked at the source material so much, and the noise is so bad, I'm going to have to look at my own copy to see what the NTSC version looks like.
     
  12. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Ok, just done the same clip using both Undot and Deen.
    It might look very slightly cleaner, but I can't say for sure as my eyes are getting very tired.

    I'm now making another version with Undot, Deen and quality_prec lowered to 12 (>>18).

    Unless the difference is very noticeable I'll post ny observations tomorrow (3:48am here). ;)
     
  13. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Something I've noticed:
    In the ECL file, it says "progressive=0".
    Couldn't that explain why I don't notice any improvement between the different backups??? :/

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  14. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    Damn, good catch! I think you may have one of the infamous progressive sources that are flagged interlaced. That's what the Disable Interlaced option in the Advanced AVS Options is for. It's been reported that some progressive PAL sources are flagged interlaced (in the MPEG headers) and if you actually encode (or upsample chroma) as though it were interlaced that will cause definite quality issues. Being in NTSC-country I've never seen one myself, but when I look at the VOB you provided I don't see any signs that it's interlaced, and certainly it should't be, because handling progressive video that way (field blending) is strictly amateur hour.

    I recommend using Disable Interlaced on this project and trying the encode again.
     
  15. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Sorry to be a pain, vurbal, but where can I find the option to disable interlaced?

    Do I simply have to change "progressive=0" to "progressive=1", and are there other settings I'd have to change too?

    I'll have to try tomorrow though, as I'm off to bed (4:41am). ;)
     
  16. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    If you want to do it directly through the ECL file and the AviSynth script, change Progressive=0 to Progressive=1 in the ECL and change ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=true) to ConvertToYUY2() in the AVS file. If that helps, you can start the project over again with DVD-RB and on the Options menu, go to AVS Options, then Advanced (Expert) Options, then Disable Interlaced and select Apply To All. This assumes that there aren't actually titles that are interlaced on the DVD, and I'm not sure if you're doing a full or movie only backup so I probably shouldn't make those kinds of assumptions.

    Edit: Oops, you better change alternate_scan=1 to alternate_scan=0 in the ECL file as well.
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
    DVD Rebuilder Guides: http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial.cfm http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvd_rebuilder_tutorial_advanced.cfm[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  17. 64026402

    64026402 Active member

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    ddlooping,
    Since you didn't see the change I'm figuring your using cce 2.67. You need 2.69 basic to make use of the quality_prec setting. I forgot you probably had 2.67 for use with dvd2dvdr. Sorry.

    I know it is a lot of extra time but if you wanted to make 1 more try I think you would see a dramatic change. Hopefully one you would like.
     
  18. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Thanks, vurbal, I'll try that.

    Edit: for future reference, is there a way to skip the processing of the VAF file?

    Donald, I updated to the latest version - 2.69.01.10 - [bold]before[/bold] my first successful DVD-RB backup.

    Hopefully, the "progressive=0" is the issue.
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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2004
  19. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    No, you can't skip the VAF file, but keep in mind that's really equivalent to the first pass in other MPEG encoders. It just doesn't write an actual MPEG file because that would be pointless when all the first pass is only calculating quantization and bitrates. The only way to do single pass VBR encoding with CCE is to get CCE SP, and evan then there can be issues with calculating the filesize because it's designed to give you a file of whatever size it takes to get the quality you select.
     
  20. ddlooping

    ddlooping Active member

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    Thanks, I did not know the VAF files were equivalent to analysis files. :eek:

    The latest test, with progressive on, undot, deen, and quality_prec down to 18 (12), did not seem to improve the quality (I still can't differentiate one backup from another). :(
    I can provide the clip(s) if you want to have a look.

    I got another test to run though, with quality_prec at 30...


     

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