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Ethanol/Alcohol in gas, is it worth the price?

Discussion in 'Safety valve' started by ZippyDSM, Aug 19, 2012.

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  1. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's try to keep the political rhetoric to a minimum here. I don't put a moderator hat on very often these days but them's the rules. I'm not saying you can't bitch about the government, but let's try to avoid stuff that's likely to turn into a flamewar about a particular elected official who is up for re-election right now.

    Having said that, Ireland is entirely correct that US ethanol regulations are, and have always been, intended as a subsidy for corn producers. Specifically they're a misguided attempt to prop up small farming operations which have been in trouble for most of my life. And I say that as someone who lives in one of the top corn producing states. This is almost entirely the result of pandering to legislators and lobbyists from states like Iowa (where I live) who are behind this nonsense.

    The fact is it makes no sense, either in terms of engineering or long term economics, to focus on a future based on propping up a business because of nostalgia. Normally when I'm making that argument I'm referring to the entertainment industry or some big publisher but it applies equally to agriculture. Ultimately it's not family farms that reap the benefit from corn subsidies. It's the big corporations that process all that corn to produce things like ethanol and high fructose corn syrup.

    The natural development of new fuels is an evolution from those which are less efficient to alternatives which are more efficient. In simple terms efficiency is primarily a matter of the ratio of hydrogen to carbon. The higher that ratio is (ie more hydrogen), the more efficiently it burns. In addition to the overall financial benefit it also naturally improves the environmental impact since less carbon in the fuel means lower harmful emissions.

    There's no question petroleum based fuel is on its way out on some as of yet unknown timetable. The problem, besides all the distractions of unworkable solutions like corn-based ethanol, is the obsession with figuring out the ideal end game instead of working out the natural next step to take us in the right direction. You can't just say, "here's the perfect technology so that's what we're going to develop next."
     
    vurbal, Sep 24, 2012
    #21
  2. ps355528

    ps355528 Active member

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    We have had electricity based transport systems for over a century (the first electric traction units actually predate the internal combustion engine by a few years) The problem has always been the size and weight of the batteries. Again there is a lack of thinking outside the box in this instance.. Why not use induction loops buried under the road with batteries carried only for small roads and local/rural use? Every vehicle can be chipped and "fuel" bought up front in the same way as liquid fuels are now.

    Of course the political problems crop up.. big oil owns government so will ensure their profits come before any other common sense considerations. Who cares about the environment or the future when there is another billion $ for a billionaire to be had? On a crash course to doom and nobody seems to have the foresight to stop these greedy corrupt destroyers of the future.. An Indian once said "when the last fish has been caught, the last tree cut down, the last bison killed and the last river poisoned, then (the white) man will discover you can't eat money"
     
    ps355528, Sep 25, 2012
    #22
  3. ZippyDSM

    ZippyDSM Active member

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    Politics destroys humanity >>
     
    ZippyDSM, Sep 25, 2012
    #23
  4. ddp

    ddp Moderator Staff Member

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    humanity creates politics. always have & always will.
     
    ddp, Sep 25, 2012
    #24
  5. vurbal

    vurbal Administrator Staff Member

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    We have met the enemy and he is us.
     
    vurbal, Sep 26, 2012
    #25
  6. ddp

    ddp Moderator Staff Member

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    correct as we are the most sadistic animals on earth.
     
    ddp, Sep 26, 2012
    #26
  7. ps355528

    ps355528 Active member

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    I've been trying to avoid laying blame on any one particular school of political thought.. but just as a FYI.. any "free democracy" which spends 56% of it's national budget on military/armaments and only 12% combined on education and healthcare isn't IMHO a "free and open" democracy.. most tyrannical juntas spend a higher proportion on infrastructure education and health.. for example Iraq in 2000 spent 69% of tax revenues on health and education and only 15% on military..

    We are being lied to and stolen from on a massive scale. Is it easier to say 150,000,000 Americans are being lazy, or that 400 Americans are being greedy? Yet it's the little people who are paying for this greed, being told that we can't "afford" healthcare and welfare when combined they amount to less that 15% of the national budget compared to tax avoidance by big business and individuals which clocks in at a massive 80% of national potential revenue.. then take in the military spend.. 56% not mentioning the other $1 trillion plus "black budget" which is hidden and funnelled into covert ops.. such as funding the so called "enemies" that are used to justify cuts in social spending and "austerity" while the top 1% carry on creaming it off like there is no tomorrow. We have a perfect exam;e in the UK.. 2 years ago one man paid himself £1.2 billion.. tax free.. it would take a minimum wage earner 97 million years to earn that.. what is the possible justification for allowing an individual to asset strip a nation in that way, dodging paying ANY tax on the income.. unless of course he owns our so called "representatives".. Time to wake up.. the criminals have stolen the world and we will all suffer for their greed..

    The French had a solution in 1789.. time for some more of that..
     
    ps355528, Sep 26, 2012
    #27
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