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How to determine source for CDA tracks

Discussion in 'Audio' started by belenke, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. belenke

    belenke Member

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    Someone gave me a live cd. My library is all lossless audio. How can I look at the data ( cda ) on this cd to see what bitrate ( lossy or lossless ) source was used to burn it? Thank you very much for your help. Barry in Colorado
     
  2. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    To see bit rates, install a trial version of dbPowerAmp. The converted and spy tool do not expire. I do not know what I would do without that tool. I guess I would just be in the dark.

    All audio CDs are CDA. Your lossless collection are transcoded cda files unless you captured vinyl. CDA is a fixed 1250 BR and very much like a wave file. It has no compression so a recording of silence is exactly the same as the most complex music. Actually wave files were made to the same specs as the cda. Just because the format is lossless has no bearing on the audio quality. You can make a CD with a 16 BR mp3. Just because it is lossless does not mean it is HiFi.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  3. k00ka

    k00ka Regular member

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    @ belenke,
    The only way for you to know for sure, whether the CD was created from a lossless soure, is for you to have ripped it yourself, from an original source CD or wav...
    That said, while using spectral and frequency analysis is not 100% reliable, you can try with EACs wav analysis tool.
    http://audiohub.org/get/fa/fa-eac.htm

    You can also try this CD analyzer tool.
    http://www.true-audio.com/Tau_Analyzer_-_CD_Authenticity_Detector

    Again, just looking at a 16 khz lowpass is not a for-sure way of determining if the CD is from a lossy source..

    You can also rip the CD using AccurateRip.If the results don't match, then it could mean a lossy source, or maybe a different pressing..
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  4. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    k00ka, I like the idea about accurip even though that would be iffy. I believe accurip uses text on the CD to match. My guess it might fail even if the source was lossless. Still, it it an intreaging idea.

    I suspect it is a pirated live recording.

    If the live recording was made buy those little expensive digital recorders they record in an extreme bit rate comparable to CD quality.

    Bit rate isn't everything. A single mic not on stage can only be so good no matter what the bit rate was. Does it sound good? That is what matters to me. If you have a good ear you can tell if it is HiFi.
     
  5. belenke

    belenke Member

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    In the data that's stored on a cd, isn't there any tell tale info that would give some detail as to the quality of the source it was burned from? like a fingerprint, that maybe some advanced data reader program, or maybe as mentioned db power amp could see, and determine the quality of the source? I agree some recordings are just poor, but likewise some people burn good recordings from there computer to a cd, and aren't astute enought to know that their media player was set to a lower bit rate when they ripped it in the first place. Thank you again, Barry
     
  6. k00ka

    k00ka Regular member

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    Yeah Mez! most likely a non-original source..Hey belenke, how does it sound?..AFAIC if it sounds good to your ears, then be content..Or will just knowing that it's a lossless source make it more danceable?.
    Just curious is all!.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  7. djscoop

    djscoop Active member

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    you can search and wonder all you want, but the bottom line is that an audio CD is an audio CD. a burning application like nero is going to burn the audio source to the CD in CDA format, just like professional CDs do. there's no way to tell what format the original source was in.

    lame analogy: say a friend bakes a cake and gives it to you. you eat a piece, then want to find out what kind of sugar was used in it. you can't tell from eating it...sugar is sugar. you would have to find out from your friend (the source) to get your answer. same situation with your CDR.
     
  8. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    Fingerprints will not help at all. You may be able to identify ther tune but not the quality. The best tool you have to check quality is your ears. I can hear music and tell if it is HiFi. I can tell you I have heard plenty of vinyl (analog has infinite bit rate) that the recording wasn't very good. Just listen to early Billy Joel or Elton John. I rate some of them as being no better than 128 bit rates. I was listening one of their albums and I though I screwed some how till I got the vinyl out of storage and it sucked.

    Voice is faithfuly reproduced at as low as 16 BR, electronic music is captured well at 128. It is the non eletronic music that requires more bandwidth.

    I know of no other way to test quality. I hate morons that burn junk CDs.
     
  9. djscoop

    djscoop Active member

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    to me, the words vinyl and bitrate just shouldn't be used in the same sentence. thats why i love vinyl so much. it does not and will not compare with digital, i don't care what bitrate or format its compressed to. audiophiles spend tens of thousands of dollars on ultra high end turntables, tube amps, and speakers for this very reason.
     
  10. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    I have thought about 'your problem' and if you can find out the highest frequency on the CD. If it is above 22kHz the source had to be lossless. You can't say the reverse. Voices and electronics do not produce ultrasonics.

    djscoop sorry for offending you! Infinite bit rate does is a good description in my humble opinion. Vinyl junkies don't hurt anyone but I believe they have turned listening to music into a religion. That way you can get in the supernatural. I have a friend that will not taint his ears with digital music. Yes analog MAY record very high ultrasonics. My friend worries about ultrasonics not recorded by the 12250 bit rate of a CD even though medically he can't hear 10 kHz, he is worring about 40 kHz. His age puts him into less that 10 kHz catigory. I am sure he would like to believe he could see through walls with in X-ray vision but that is too easy to prove that he can't. I believe him to be a nut case but a harmless one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  11. djscoop

    djscoop Active member

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    no worries mez you didn't offend me, i just consider digital and analog to be what they are, which is two different versions of reproducing music. bit rate is a digital term, so it doesn't really apply in the analog world, that is all. i love listening to my vinyl collection at home, but at the same time i capture all my vinyl and rip my CDs to mp3 so I can listen them in the car and on my phone. best of both worlds.
     
  12. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    Analog and digital are 2 different worlds. I was only trying to make a point. Quality isn't just bit rates.

    You can't store info that just was never there. The point I was trying to make is I have well preserved vinyl that sounds like a 128 or worse. The original recording did not have the mic pickups like they do now. I suspect recording was to focus on the voice not the piano. Now everyone has mics as part of the piano so you hear the 'sparkle' missing in earlier recordings. It is that sparkle that uses up the bandwidth. The recordings sound better to me than a live piano with no mics.
     
  13. djscoop

    djscoop Active member

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    sparkle...nice. yeah there are three different ways to properly mic a piano, you get a different sound depending on what type of music. classical, jazz, pop, etc.
     
  14. wanttono

    wanttono Member

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    HI Guys
    Interesting conversation! Observations from a non techy
    I was disappointed with the first cd I heard.. the music was lacking (to my ear) What i finally realized was that with cd's i could hear the highs lows and midrange AND with vinyl I could hear the transitions between high low midrange .

    Then mp3 came along and showed me i could be disappointed further

    Or some such nonsense .. even with all the pros and cons of each format..... I still miss vinyl

    thanks for the techy side ..

    Frank
     
  15. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    Yes, I am not a techie but I do read some. I hope you not not think you have super human hearing or something. You start to lose the ability to hear high notes from the day you are born. When you are born you may be able to hear 20,000 Hz. At 20 you can't hear 18,000 and the aging process actually speeds up. A 320 CBR mp3 faithfully records 20,000 Hz. CDs and lossless faithfully preserve 30-40 kHz and vinyl preserves even more. You can't hear any of that.

    What a bet you are hearing are the 'flavorings' of the different sources. Vinyl has its own sound, the cartrige and even the wire from the cartridge to the preamp 'flavor' the sound. Vinyl tends to sound more 'golden'. By changing the wire from the cartridge to the preamp to a single crystal wire will diminish the golden tone and makes it sound more like a CD. I suspect boosting the power in the cartridge might do the same. You like the golden sound of the vinyl. The only way you will hear that is listening to vinyl with regular patch cords. A perfect reproduction will not have that golden sound. Vinyl is comming back.

     
  16. k00ka

    k00ka Regular member

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    Yawnnn!..
    The 'CD vs Vinyl' topic has been discussed ad nauseam..
     
  17. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    k00ka, agreed!
    They are different and if you like one over the other good for you.
    It is very much like picking the best religion or flavor.

    Vinyl stores much more data than CDs but your brain can't process it and your ears can't hear it.

    Even high bit rates are overkill for the adult ear.

    Magnetic media is the most reproducable and vinyl is probably the least. Vinyl must wear, so the music is forever minutely changing.

    Vinyl does sound different but that may be an artifact of the play back equipment. Because the ultra low impedance patch wires make vinyl sound closer to CDs indicates to me that golden sound is an artifact. Still, who cares if you like the sound? Wine gets flavor from the barrel it was aged in and people pay good money for that difference in taste. It is the final package that counts.
     

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