Intel P4 vs AMD

ozzy214

I apprecitae your dilemma but could you please remove and desist in using vulgar language? There's a 14 year old who also uses this thread.

For careers I was musician, then Recording studio tech/mixer, trained at the Ontario Institute of Recording Technology (try ripping a 32 track Mitsubishi westar apart fixing it and then reasembling it), I ran a business for a while. Then I obtained a degree in Social Work and Education. I'm certified in Math and Science as well as ESE. I'm currently working as an ESE Resource facilitator.

 

To All,

Well, I broke down and called Asus this morning. They actually have a pre-sales line just for questions like mine. I was pleasantly surprised when it took less than a min. to speak to a real live person. The answer is their SLI boards support 2 7800 pci x16 video cards. They are not limited to the 6800.

Newegg has the XFX version for $359 (USD) It also has the fastest core clock speed at 450 MHz. The way the prices have been dropping, I expect to see them for $299 by years end.

What do I do for a living??? I am a Dental Equipment Service Tech and a Federally certified X-Ray Service Tech. I have been doing this for 38 years and recieved my Federal license in 1977. I have been to schools for Siemens, G.E., Ritter and J. Morita for Digital electronics and control circuts. I also repair air driven Dental handpieces. You know, the drill that goes in your mouth to drill your teeth. These turn 400 to 450,000 rpm by the way. I got into computers around 1983 or 84 and started building systems in 89. Using the S.W.A.G. (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess) formula, I've built about 800 new systems over the years. I got away from computers for about 5 years and started playing with them again in 2003. I now repair and build custom computers on the side, mostly for Dentists and Doctors. As is evidenced by my lack of knowlege with the newest technologies. I've found that even though systems are way more complex today, they are much easier to set up once you understand how to do it. Today you have control over so many things in a motherboard without resorting to jumpers like you had to do in the old days. Thanks to some of the people in this forum, I am now able to understand more about what you are actually doing when you set the MB up!

Theonejrs

 

I repair and build PC's on the side too but mostly for gamers. During my business phase I began selling 186 computers back in 1979 or 1980 (can't remember the year) when macs still reigned supreme. I began repairing them about the same time but it wasn't until the introduction of Win321 that I started to build. In 1996 I really stepped up the volume and began building mostly high end machines(yes I've built a few cheap machines too). I classify myself as a knowledgeable enthusiast and I never let money interfere upgrading.


Theonejrs

Are you getting two 7800 now? If so I can't wait to see your 3dmark scores. I'd do it too but my current card does all that I want it too.

 

LOL What do I do for a living? I don't. LOL I attended the UK School of Education, though I don't teach as a profession (honor student). Math and sciences were my strong suit and what I would have been teaching had I gone into the profession. I've driven trucks (big ones), used explosives for underground mining, and even worked in a mine equipment repair center. I also have a degree in Diesel Mechanics. I've worked in both big truck and automotive shops and was a dealership service manager. That's just a few of the things I've done with my time. So, let's just say I understand electrical systems, electronics, mechanical systems, hydraulic systems and the theory behind them. Plus, if they get on my nerves too much, I even know how to blow them up. LOL Don't let that joke bother anyone, I no longer hold a valid certification for explosives, so I don't go around blowing things up. LOL No mad bombers here.

Among other things I've had a few college hours on PCs. I'm also something of an enthusiast and know PC components fairly well. As I mentioned, I also have the background in the automotive service sector. I have months of specific training on automotive electrical systems and electronics (accumulated time to cover changes and updated components). I hold NIASE (National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence) certificatiion on heavy trucks as well as automobiles. I also hold certification from various automotive manufacturers as well as vendor specific accreditation. Among that NIASE certification is electrical systems.

Comparing auto electrical systems to PCs is a far stretch. Some ECMs (Electronic Control Module) are more involved than others, but that is in large part due to the accessory systems involved. The basic function of an ECM is controlling the closed loop fuel and ignition system utilizing variable feedback sensors. Sensors are just variable resistors. With climate controls and such added, it merely requires more function from an ECM, it doesn't make it more complicated to understand or diagnose and repair. Most things on these systems are checked with an array of testers supplied through the manufacturer or from tool jobbers or other equipment outlets. A high impedance DVOM is handy for these systems. Besides being able to test sensors with test equipment, one can check them with a meter when specs are available. Also, a high impedance meter can be used for multiple tests without damaging the ECM circuitry. You wouldn't want to stick a grounded ice pick in your PC mobo would you?

Most tests nowadays are done simply by connecting a test computer into the OBD connector and analyzing the auto computer system. A dealer computer is connected to the database at the manufacturer's facility as well. For secondary repair centers, there are the OBD scanners and programming tools. Testing isn't a matter of wizardry, just good diagnostic skills, and the proper equipment and resources.

Wiring is no more complicated than wires to a light bulb when the problem has been eliminated to a particular circuit. Having a wire buried doesn't make it a problem to diagnose as long as a part is accessible. One simply goes to the circuit in question and tests the continuity of the wiring or the last available spot where the circuit is complete. I also have a high impedance test light (diode and resistor, made it myself) that I can test ECM circuits with (both positive and negative circuits). So armed with a DVOM, my test light, and a wiring diagram (the diagram should state routing locations as well as color codes), tracking circuit faults is simple. I sympathize with hours involved getting behind a manifold to expedite a repair, but that is mechanics; nothing to do with computers except the component covers a wire that is part of the ECM circuit. What's it take, a couple of minutes to properly repair and seal the wire in question? More time is involved if the wire is in a sealed loom, but not a lot. Most underhood harnesses nowadays are readily accessible. Sounds like Ozzy ran into a serious design flaw, I wonder what vehicle make and model that was. A mechanic is paid more for the mecahanics involved than for actual electrical repairs in a repair where major components have to be R&R-ed.

The wiring of PCs is minimal (internally); really easy to diagnose and is nothing like auto looms. There the cars are more involved due to the sheer size of the looms. Where the problems arise for PC enthusiasts is when components don't function as they're supposed to, as with Ozzy. Different chipsets from different mobos, different RAM, different BIOS, different drivers; there's a multitude of things that can affect the way a component such as a graphics card functions.

Many components on a vehicle are the same for a line of vehicles, so if a component doesn't work, it's simply replaced. The computer (ECM) for a car isn't a repairable item, just diagnose and replace. ECMs are even simple where this is concerned. ECMs have a PROM (Programmed Read Only Memory) modules. Other than replacing one of those, the ECM is a replacement item for the technician. I can see why an auto tech develops the "if it doesn't work replace it" mentality.

The "replace it" mentality doesn't work for the PC enthusiast with the many possibilities available and the need (and desire) to solve an array of different problems that arise from the many variables. So, being a mechanic may make one familiar with some automotive components similar to some PC components, which is a start, but it sure doesn't make one good with PCs. That takes time, training (whether formal or self taught), and experience. Just doing a single build doesn't make one an expert or give the right to call a reputable component and it's manufacturer shit.

With some of the crusty individuals I've run into, I've heard more than my fair share of colorful language. If a professional auto tech, I doubt Ozzy uses some of the language he's used here in front of customers. I slip and use choice words on occasion. Rarely though would I use such language on a technical thread, especially when minors are also using the same thread. In some situations profanity tends to just show a vulgar personality and adds nothing to the macho persona. It sure doesn't make anyone sound more technical. LOL

 

LOL

Now let me tell you some of things that brobear has never done.

1)He has never given a short response

2)He has never placed limits on his extended responses

3)A single paragraph reply just doesn't cut it

4)He doesn't use vulgar language even when he can't seem to find the words (yea like that'll ever happen)

5)Not admitted to being a consultant to the writing of "War And Peace."

6)He never read the "Lord Of The Rings" trilogy because he thought that they were a series of essays.

 

1) I have. LOL

2) True.

3) My basic philosophy.

4) I never said I was an angel, I just don't try to make sailors blush. LOL

5) Won't admit to consulting on a novella like "War and Peace".

6) It's not a short essay? LOL

 

brobear

Now where's the real reply. LOL

Hmm! (And in a deap voice he replied) Coming soon from a word processor near you!!!!!

 

True. LOL

 

And the words were lost on the wind, and time, and the phonemes fell like leaves from autumnal trees left unused upon the ground waiting to be raked and piled. LOL

 

You been making airplane models again? LOL

 

Well I apologize for my vulgar language. I have been having home problems and this thread is getting on my nerves too...so I apologize.

You are absolutely right brobear. I have developed the replace mentality. I firmly belive in if something is broke or your not sure, then just replace it with known working part to elimate the part as being faulty or not.

Whcih is exactly what I did with the pc.....I kept changing vid cards till I found one that worked...lol. Sometimes it aint good mentality....but its a way of life for me and I apply it to everything.

Btw...Im ase certified....which is probally usa version of your n something certification. Sorry cant see ya post or I would cut and copy it...lol.

Oh and the vehicle was a 2005 mazda tribute......the main ground for the fuel injectors ran under the plenum over to a bolt under the power steering pump if I remeber right. So I may have exagerated with the time,,, but it was still a while to find the problem.

But I will say one thing brobear....you said ecms were kinda different than pcs. I tend to disagree. All computers...no matter what they are use 100 year old technology such as capacitors and resistors. So they are to me pretty simalar except for the programming part. So as long as you know how to use a dvom and understand ohms...amps...and whatnot you can always figure it out:>

 

You guys are hurting my head again.

Ozzie,

I am an ASE Master Technician and hold the L1 advanced performance certification. NIASE and ASE are one in the same. ASE just makes a better logo.
Anyone with a few years experience can pass these tests. It doesn't mean the certification holder is qualified.

I have 26 years experience in the business and specialize in drivability and electrical.

Brobear is right about automotive diagnostics with computers being different. As a rule automotive computers are proprietary with no interchangeable standardized parts.
My approach is the same. Diagnose the problem with proper procedure and test equipment.
With as many as 80 networked, programable computers in a single car, parts replacement therapy(shotgun diagnostics) simply isn't an option.
PC diagnostics is easier so not finding a basic video card problem with a quality card like ATI should not present a difficulty for a qualified automotive diagnostician. No excuses.

 

Main FI ground is the first then you check on any FI vehicle with a disabled FI computer. It is just to common and easy to fix.
Now if you want to talk intermitant computer electrical problems, then things can get interesting and time consuming.

 

64026402

You know my level of understanding football, and now you guys want to draw me into the world of auto mechanics? Oddly enough that was the choice of just about all of my childhood friends. It seems even online we pull to certain types with one thing in comeone. We like to make things work right and fast and then faster. LOL

 

A Mazda Miata DIS 4 cyl with good spark, fuel pressure, compresion, proper timing of cams, crank and cam sensors OK, no security system, no backpressure problems. Starts up, runs for 3 seconds normally then the computer shuts off the injectors, spark still good. Sometimes.
What to do.
Modern FI systems have a secondary indication of cam movement that will shut off injectors after a few seconds if not present.
On the miata the dual coils have a buffer output to the computer from the assembly from each coil. One coil buffer output was inactive intermitantly. Replace the coil pack assembly on the back of the head. Car fixed.
This was a car I diagnosed for another shop after it had been worked on for a month.
It doesn't have any bulletins or any iATN hits. Just diagnostics.

 

BroBear,

It ain't the models, it's the glue man!

Sophocles,

I'm not quite ready to get them yet. I go back to work full time on the 21st. Every couple of weeks I'll get some part of it until I have everything. Then I will be good to go.

I am going to get an Asus A8N-SLI-Premium MB, which is exactly the same as yours except there is no daughterboard but rather a chip built into the MB that controls the SLI. It also has the fan-less heat pipe system. Video will be 2 7800 GTXs. I also am going to take your advice and go with the Athlon64 Dual Core 4400+. Hard drives are another thing I have to look into more closely. I prefer Maxtor Diamond Plus drives. I know this sounds funny coming from an old guy like me because it wasn't tht many years ago that Maxtors and connors weren't even compatible with themselves (I swear that's true!). Western Digital seems to be the only one offering a 10,000 rpm SATA drive at this time but I have had recent problems with WD drives and 74GB won't do it for me. Size is another problem as XP doesn't like drives over 156GB and I am very leery of overlays. I had a 160 that I installed for a customer and all of a sudden it disappeared from XP. The machine would boot up but would not let you access anything on the drive because it didn't show in My Computer. The final solution was to install a pair of 120s, problem solved! I learned then that if you lose the overlay, you lose everything on the drive. I also learned that True Image 9 won't recover the overlay! I'll probably go with Maxtor 120 SATA drives and see how that goes. I also have to look into memory and find out what's best for this setup. Somewhere I read that this particular MB could run memory faster than 400MHz. I need to look into the pros & Cons of that. I figure maybe in the spring it will be ready. I've looked into a 20" wide screen monitor but they are just too expensive right now. I don't really like LCDs as they hurt my eyes but no one seems to build a CRT wide screen so I guess when the price comes down some I'll buy it. Right now I am using a Dell 1226H 19" CRT flat screen which is about the best 19 that Dell ever made. Let me put it this way, if it went down this would be the first monitor ever that I would have repaired. I run a screen resolution of 1280x1024 and it is awsome!

theonejrs

 

You need service pack 2 for large HDs. No big deal. The larger drive platters yield more data speed. Use the newer bigger drives and use Sata. Preferably Raid 0 if you like speed. Just make sure to specify 4k clusters for the XP boot partition.

 

LOL Ozzy, I'm on your side of the pond. ASE is simply a shortening of NIASE.

There may be electrical components with a one hundred year history, but the PC as we know it is a relative newcomer. As late as the seventies the computers were still housed in large areas and sometimes with off site connections via terminals with the large reels. Chips and chip development have made the difference and most of that development has been over the past couple of decades, with the majority of major improvements over the last.

ECMs came into use with automobiles in the late seventies and early eighties. The task is to insure clean emissions, fuel economy, and nowadays a bit more performance. It was a sick pup when it first came on the market. ECMs are little more than a controller. PROMs are simply the programming for particular vehicles. Various sensors for barometric pressure, engine temperature, intake air flow, exhaust emissions, and throttle position (where old lead foot has the hammer down) are basic to the feedback for the closed loop circuit. I realize there's a bit more to it, simplified so as not to write another book, but the ECM is just a glorified control box, info in, command out.

The point being that an ECM is simply a control box. Either it works or it doesn't. It's nothing in comparison to a desktop or laptop PC. One merely needs to look at the function of the modern PC to see the difference.

The newer ECMs have some programmable variables, but that is a simplistic adjustment along emissions or performance lines. More or less the adjustments are along the lines of additional programming for the PROM. In relation to a PC that would be like changing a few BIOS settings. With the ECMs that's all accomplished with equipment and relies little on the input of a technician except to handle the controls. Read test equipment to see what the vehicle is doing and then adjust settings within specs to achieve the gain desired. Recheck to make sure things are within specs and working properly and the vehicle is on it's way.

Though PC components may be similar and do the same task, they often require "fine tuning" by the enthusiast builder. PC function is far superior to any ECM created to date. Just look at the many things a PC does and the ECM reads input and changes timing and fuel mixture. No contest, the ECM is a computer type control unit and the PC is a true computer. To think, PCs up until the past decade were little more than glorified word processors.

It's nice to hear you have your ASE certification. Sort of an indicator you're capable of good work on cars. Now when you get the A+ computer certification, that would indicate you could do good PC repair. Actually a lot of us hobbyists are doing it without that. LOL As Sophocles pointed out though, it still doesn't make one knowledgable about a lot of the finer aspects of PC building. I'm glad you got your problem fixed with a parts change, but that has no bearing on whether ATI makes a good card or not. If it didn't work for you, I'm not saying go back and fight with it. Your current system is working. However, when you do the next build, what happens if you run into a problem with an nVidia card? That's been known to happen as well. Being a computer enthusiast, you need to change your approach. Parts changing is okay for the fast paced auto repair business, but it leaves a lot to be desired when working with PCs. I remember there was a time when mechanics actually rebuilt things like they quiz about in those ASE tests.

 

Due to increasing demands from clean air legislation and some basic competition between manufacturers the moderm PCMs are true real time computers. Just at a lower power point, closer to old Pentiums and 486s. Cost if nothing else will keep them low power units.
But they do a lot more thinking than the early 80s fuel mixture and ignition only units.

The first electronic fuel injection that was the father of all that followed was invented and patented by GMs Rochester division in the late 50s and used tubes in the prototype. Bosch purchase the non USA rights and put it out as the first commercial use as the D-jetronic.
Then L-jet for the air meter type the LH for the modern Maf sensor type, both sold to Japanese interests.

 

theonejrs

Donald pretty much had that right on drives. Until 2000 service pack 3 or higher and XP SP1, the PCs were limited to 137GB drives. 98SE and ME require controller cards for drives larger than 137GB. There are some exceptions for certain chipsets which use drivers that provide BIOS support. Not really a big deal anymore, not that many people with 98 and ME left that are wanting to spend money on upgrades. I've had a 250GB WD on my current system for over a year. It's been trouble free. I had XP SP1 and have since added SP2. So, I don't know where that 156 GB deal came from, but I've not run into that situation.