Intel P4 vs AMD

Donald,
Fuel injection goes back to the 1880s. Fuel injection was being used by Germany for aircraft in World War 2. Bosch was the developer of that, so they were into fuel injection before Chevrolet, though maybe not on cars. The US developed fuel injection for use in the Patton tanks. So fuel injection was nothing new when Chevy's Ramjet system came out in 57.

1949 was the first time I can recall fuel injection being used on a car. An Offenhauser using a Hillborn injection system, developed by Stuart Hillborn, was run in an Indy race. The Chevrolet's Rochester Ramjet system was brought out in 57 and borrowed heavily from the Hillborn system. It only lasted for 2 years except for some use in the Corvette which went up to 1965. The carburetor was much cheaper and easier to maintain. Automotive fuel injection wasn't very popular at the time. Bosch in Germany developed fuel injection that was used on Volkswagens and Mercedes in the 60s and 70s. So Chevrolet wasn't the first, and not the only developer at the time. Ottavio Fuscaldo of Italy was the first engineer to incorporate an electric solenoid to a fuel system coming up with the first electronic fuel injection. So GM didn't even get the first on that one either.

I'm aware fuel injection has been around for a long time before the advent of the newer systems. In 76 Cadillac had an electronic system on the Seville with individual injectors, using an old analog computer. The system was developed by Bendix, Bosch and GM. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI) was brought out by GM in 1980. The early Ramjet fuel injection had little to do with the new ECM systems. In fact when GM brought out the new digital system on the Cadillacs in 1980, they were using electronically controlled throttle bodies. Much of the GM line used electronic carburetors and then throttle body injectors and later individual electronic injectors.

ECMS have incorporated things in addition to just fuel and timing, I noted that earlier. They've actually developed into small onboard computers. There are climate control functions and the transmissions are now linked to the ECM system. Suspension and steering, engine controls, just about anything that can be linked to it, the engineers try to add to the onboard computers. There are more advanced applications than the originals, I mentioned some programmable aspects the first ECMs didn't have. I didn't mention onboard diagnostics either. As Sophocles says, I can get a bit wordy. Still the ECMs are simple computer control systems using feedback logic.

And as far as the new ECM systems are concerned, they still don't come close to being as involved as a new PC. Like you said, they're closer to the old Tandies, and those were little more than word processors. I remember some of the earlier PCs and if the user didn't understand programming language, word processing was about all they could do. That was before all the companies that were doing programming. I forgot, those word processing programs were on floppies, guess those were some of the first retail programs. LOL Just doing a spreadsheet that computed totals as you entered often required a good knowledge of something like DOS. Nowadays, no one thinks twice about Quicken or office suite programs.

I'm starting to wander. I'll just add that the ECMs of the 1980s were probably better than the desktop computers of the time. But with the developments in the nineties and later, the home PC has eclipsed the capablilities of an automotive computer. I don't think it is a matter of cost as just being efficient and supplying what is needed. With costs dropping on older computer technology, maybe the feedback system may stay at a low enough price that an onboard computer doesn't significantly raise the cost of a unit. But with the newer hybrid vehicles, as well as meeting increasing demands on current automotive packages, the automotive computer is continuing to evolve and in doing so may increase in cost.

 

I was refering to electronic FI. Bosches first electronic FI was D-jet licensed from GM. No FI before this had a computer. The Corvette and early racing injection was considered mechanical.

Bosch did come up with CIS, but again the metering was mechanical.

 

Fuel Injection

Chrysler had the first digital fuel injection. Here is the quote from Chrysler:
"First digital fuel injection: 1957 DeSoto Adventurer (Bendix aircraft system adapted for Chrysler use); again, 1981-1982 Imperial. It's worth noting that the DeSoto's system was very modern in design and had reliable capacitors and such been available, it would most likely have been very successful." By the way the original Desoto is still around and is in the process of being restored, complete with the original fuel injection! This is truely amazing since very few were ever sold.

Some early model 327 Corvettes had a different form of fuel injection. I've seen the Desoto and worked on the Vette!

theonejrs

 

The 76-79 Seville was the first US implementation of GMs original FI that the Germans called D-jet. This was an American only creation from many years before.
Before D-jet Mercedes used a diesel injection system for gas engines when needed.

 

theonejrs
Donald mentioned that. Much of the early fuel injection was mechanical. That was the type Hillborn developed for use on the Offy in 49 and what Chevrolet borrowed from for the development of their system. Of the modern computer assisted electronic systems, GM had the first in 76, a joint venture of Bendix, Bosch and GM.

 

I stand corrected by theonejr. It was Bendix not Rochester. At least the country was right. But Bosch did buy it, not develop it.
The production unit used transistors but the cost was about $150 per unit as opposed to $15 for a carb with about the same performance. So they sold it.

 

Donald
Bosch developed the D-Jetronic automotive fuel injection system primarily from patents they licensed from Bendix, not Chevrolet. It was used on the Type 3 VW engines in 67. The L-Jetronic, K-Jetronic and other systems were developed by Bosch. Bosch is still a major player in automotive fuel injection systems. As I noted before, they were a joint partner in developing GMs electronic fuel injection. A lot of vehicles use the German developed Bosch fuel injection.

 

Actually the Caddy D-jet was a carbon copy of the original Bendix. But the parts came from Germany. They were the only ones using electronic at the time.

 

I was wrong about GMs involvement. Been too long since I read about it. Bendix to Bosch to GM with no real change to the design. Until L-jet there were few modifications to the Bendix design.
L-jet was the more popular one anyway. Thats the one used on the Bugs, BMWs, Nissans, Toyotas ect...

The Bendix Pre D-Jet was the grandad of all the electronic FI, whoever may be developing the new stuff now

 

The Caddy D-Jet was the Bosch system developed from the Bendix patents. Maybe Cadillac put some of the parts together, but they came from Bosch. That system was used on the 76-79 Cadillacs. But as I mentioned, VW used the Bosch D-Jetronic back in 67.

 

Looks like we've been posting at the same time Donald. LOL

 

I think Caddy purchased the system complete for those years. All bosch stamped stuff. Although the computer didn't look very European.

 

I think the AMD vs Intel/I hate Radeon/Auto repair thread is a little off track.

 

I used to have a book that chronicled the details of the early electronic FI development. I can't seem to find it. It had mentioned the tubed prototype that ran well but would sometimes flood out under powerlines.

It is probably with my Eniac book. Another tube computer. Filled a very large room.

 

LOL Guess you missed where I mentioned the Italian making the first electronic gasoline injection system. The Italians had it first. Though Bendix may have patented the first automotive system. Bosch licensed the patents, but a lot of the Bosch work was Bosch, not Bendix. The system on the 76-79 Cadillacs was the Bosch, though it may have been developed from use of some Bendix patents. Bosch was actually the first with a digital fuel injection system, the Motronic system in 79. Guess that may be the reason GM had them on board for development of their system along with Bendix.

 

To All,
Does anyone remember GM's CCC, Computer Controled Carburation? Was only used from about 83 til 85 or 86. That's why all the cars GM made that were CCC were junk! They were a nightmare. Some of the electrical and electronic adjustments were so poorly designed and unstable that you could set it up while on the emmisions computer and the settings wouldn't last long enough for the car to pass! My 87 Fiero with the VTech 4 (I just mention the VTech engine to piss off the Honda Guys) had throttle body fuel injection. All fuel injection have one beneficial quirk over carburators. As you went up in altitude the gas mileage went up. With Carburators, it went down, usually acompanied by clouds of black smoke. When crossing the rockies in 92, I got an amazing 46 mpg. It usually got about 35! Best car I ever owned! Wish I had kept it. Mind you this comes frome someone who has owned 2 Jaguar XKEs, 2 XJSs, 2 Mercededes 450 SLCs, a DeTomaso Pantera and a Lotus Europa!

theonejrs

 

Here's the way the history of the electronic system goes as I learned it. Rochester sold its technology to Bendix, who improved it by replacing many of the mechanical components with electronic ones. Bendix was the first to create a mass-produced electronic fuel injection system. Detroit failed to sell more than a handful of fuel injected cars however (like the DeSoto). That prompted Bendix to turn its rights over to Bosch, who continuously improved the system. In the early 1970's, when emissions and fuel economy became big concerns, the advances in electronics technology made fuel injection more acceptable and affordable.

 

theonejrs
LOL Like some people with computers, the CCC systems were only as good as those that had to repair and maintain them. I had a 1981 Ninety Eight Olds. It had the electronic controlled carb. I had to rebuild it once in the mid 80's due to it having been mistreated by the previous owner. The car lasted till the mid 90's without another carb problem. It was still running great when a teenager ran into it while my wife was driving it. I repaired the car later and the carb was still functioning properly when I sold it. CCC systems weren't that much trouble for those who knew how they worked.

 

You guys are killing me, my hands feel greasy just listening to all of this automotive chatter. I feel like I'm stuck on fantasy Island with all of Dale Earnhardt's living descendants discussing the value of Bosch's spark plug superiority over glow plugs.

 

There was a funny thing I found out through GM. When making a drastic change in altitude while driving, it helped to stop the vehicle and restart it when performance dropped off. It was due to the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor needing to reset the reading to the ECM. It wasn't an issue unless you were doing something like crossing the Rockies. With altitude and atmospheric pressures changing drastically, the fuel mix wouldn't adjust properly. Regular mountains had little or no effect.