Intel P4 vs AMD

Sophocles
Considering glow plugs are for warming up diesel engine cylinders to prepare for compression ignition, especially when it's a bit cool, and spark plugs for spark ignition in gasoline applications, Dale Earnhardt would be rolling in his grave over his descendants having such a conversation.

 

BroBear,
The CCC that came with the 90 degree V6s were the worst. They had constant Idle air control and Throtle positioning sensor problems. Part of hte problem was caused by too fat a thread on the screws that adjusted the TPS. You had to get a 3/16 or smaller wrench in an impossible place and then try to make a fine adjustment with a coarse thread. As the underhood temps rose, the parts expanded knocking all the adjustments out of whack. I went to school at GM in New Jersey for CCC, compliments of Avis. I also went for the throtle body and multi-port systems that followed! I had a Mclaren M6B Can Am car in 1970 that I bought used. It had an aluminum "Reynolds" 454 block and Hilborn Fuel Injection which was strictly mechanical. The Hilborn's achilles heel was it's drive. It was installed outboard with it's pump running off a small toothed belt drive from the camshaft. When the belt would break (and it did often) you had to tear half the motor apart to replace it!
Donald,

I beg to differ with you but the Chrysler Fuel Injection of 57 was both electronic and did have a computer. In fact that particular part is about the most priceless used auto part on the planet as there is only one known to exist today. It and the entire fuel injection system was removed years ago from a 57 Desoto that was stored in a barn somewhere, by the owner and was then stored in his attic. His children were instructed to never sell it to anyone because it was priceless. He heard about the project to restore this historic car and contacted Chrysler. Now this entire system will be used to restore the only known fuel injected 57 Desoto Adventurer which was missing most the fuel injection system and the computer. The only change they plan to make is the installation of modern, same type transistors and ceramic capacitors as the paper/foil ones were not up to the job. By the By, It also was Digital!

theonejrs

 

BroBear,
Actually the problem was caused by the map sensor read going out of range. When you would shut off the engine for a few mins. it would equalize itself at the present atmospheric pressure and you were on your way running good again. The O2 sensor would do the same thing but there was no quick cure for that. Just before I went into the Eisenhouer tunnel in Colorado (Alt. 11,793 ft), the check engine light went on. It went off about half way through the tunnell. When I got to a lower altitude and checked the stored codes it indicated O2 sensor. There just wasn't enough oxygen in the air that high. I had to light my ciggarette with the car lighter as my Bic wouldn't light! The mixture was just too rich.

theonejrs

 

And I beg to differ. Electronic and digital are different. Even the much improved system developed by Bosch, from the Bendix patents for Cadillac, was not digital. It used an analog computer control. The digital fuel injection wasn't produced till 79.

As for the MAP sensor, I was just stating a strange problem most people don't run into unless they live near the Rockies. Sophocles made me a bit paranoid tonight about going into detail on everything. As you said, the reading would go out of limit, so it was giving a false reading to the ECM. The stop-start allowed the MAP sensor to reset so as to send the correct readings to the ECM. I was just giving the short version so everyone could understand. I was taught about electronic fuel control as well as a lot more about computer and electrical systems at the General Motors Training Center in Cincinnati, Ohio. I've also been to some of Ford's training schools as far back as the early electronic ignitions with the electronic modules and for the newer computer control systems. I have some history with both Ford and GM.

 

Here's how the Bendix system was supposed to work:

Electronically controlled and electrically actuated, the "Electrojector" had a transistor-equipped brain or modulator, about 5 inches in size. The brain took a timed electrical signal from the ignition distributor. It sensed, through tiny electronic transmitting devices located at key points on the engine, the engine's temperature, throttle position, manifold pressure and even the altitude (or density) of the air being sucked into the cylinders. The modulator integrated all of the information received and instantly translated this data into a control signal that actuated the injectors," according to an article in Bendixline, a company newsletter, dated Sept. 28, 1956.

The reason most of those Bendix electronic fuel injected systems disappeared was because they wouldn't work. They were a performance item and were replaced with dual 4 barrel carbs by the DeSoto dealerships. The reason a version of that system is almost nonexistent is because they were thrown in the trash. I'd say among the reasons for replacing some component parts, on the unit found, with more modern ones is because the old parts didn't work when they were new.

 

BroBear,

Hell, I don't know. What I posted originally on this was cut and pasted from the Chrysler History and achievements in the Allpar forums. Maybe they had a different idea of what constituted digital back in 57. the 555 clock chip existed back then so it is technically possible. I know that I designed and built digital x-ray rimers in the early 70s to correct severe inaccuracies in certain Italian x-ray timers. The choices the Government gave us was to correct the problem so that these machines passed the Federal regulations or take them back, give the Dentists a full refund and then ship the x-rays out of the country. We had 197 of these beasts sold so there was a lot of money at stake. I also designed a digital control circut based on the 557 chip to control the pre-heat for Litton X-ray machines. Everyone else used either dual contact relays or multiple relay circuts. Either way it was strictly mechanical with just a capacitor timing circut, just like the old time wind up electrical timers with progressive contacts that would alwys close pre-heat first no matter how fast you pushed the button. Litton decided to fire theirs with a very heavy duty Triac to eliminate the expense of the relay(s). I requested the schematics from Litton for their 5A control. A few days later I recieved a very large package containing the original white on blue drawings (to this day I don't know what the hell they are called). I had to borrow the local school gym to unfold them as they were huge. The circut I designed addressed the problem by bringing up the firing voltage at a controled and stepped rate so as not to punch out the Triac. I then used this firing circut to power the pre-heat so the tubehead and Triac didn't get hammered because of the load. Diodes were used to prevent the trigger from firing off of itself. It wasn't elligent but it worked. Not too bad for 1970! I don't remember all the particulars but it had nandgates and norgates as well as several diodes and capacitors. I don't even remember what speed the clock chip ran at anymore. I haven't seen one in about 30 years!

I caught the electronics bug when I was 3 & 1/2 in 1947. My father and my uncle built a TransVision kit T.V. and I was facinated by it. By the time that I was 5, I knew what sweep circuts were and what controlled them (6AL5s, later 12AL6s). I knew what a high voltage rectifier (1B3) was for and how it worked. I knew what the power rectifier was (5U4) and what the main power tube did (6V6) and why! Just a side note. While the T.V. was being built my dad recieved a letter in the mail from TransVision telling him that for $35.00 he could convert our set to the "New Giant screen" 12" picture tube. When I was 16 I built a Heathkit electronic Theater organ. I wasn't happy with the sound as it just had no balls! I re-engineered some of the voice circuts, added a Leslie Speaker Cabinet from a Hammond B-3 and it sounded a whole lot more like a Theater Pipe Organ! I taught night school teaching Elementary Electronics for 5 years in my twentys. I used to teach by the water theory where water and electricity share many of the same properties. They both take the path of least resistance. Electronic circuts are no more than "plumbing" for electrons. Check valves are diodes, capacitors are buckets of water that have to overflow in order to continue the waters journey, just like a capacitor's time delay function. It has to be full of electrons before the flow of electrons coming out of the capacitor can move on it's way. Resistors are just like flow control valves for electrons. The list is endless. Rheostat is the faucet of electronics. It reduces the electron flow just like a faucet reduces the flow of water. The methods I used in my teaching seemed to work pretty well as it gave my students a mechanical refrence point so that they could see in thier minds eye, what was going on in various circuts, and why! I have taken a lot of critisism over the years for what I call "My Theory." But it's something I taught myself to do when I was about 10 and it's worked pretty well for me for 51 years. I work on some pretty sophisticated electronic circuts these days. Our timing circuts are geared to the A.C. line in 60THs of a second with an allowed error of 1 pulse. This sounds simple until you realize that at the end of this flow of electrons is a load of as much as 16 amps which drags on the best of elictrical lines. Considering that the longest exposure usually used is of a second, plus or minus 1/60th. In plumbing, the circuts that would do this would be anti-hammer valves and back flow preventers. The Hydraulic Dental chairs today are so sophisticated today the the dr. can pre set his positioning down to a small fraction of an inch difference regardless of the weight in the chair and return to that setting every time he pushes the button.

Someone mentioned something about having to know air systems, hydraulics, etc. It may have been you, I'm not sure. In my Job, I have to know Air systems, Plumbing, Electrical, Hydraulics, electronics and be able to be an African engineer in all of them. Dr. can't use his room that's $1000.00 a day or more he loses. You get extremely good at on the spot engineering, or you find another proffession.

Russ

 

See what I started...I got to keep my big mouth shut...lol.

This went from amd...to radeon sucks....to automotive...to dental equipment...wtf...lol!


Well all I can say is brobear and donald is a helluve older than me and they know more about automotive systems than I do. And I just learned a lot about fuel injection I didnt know...lol.

You know they should have kept is simple mechanical injection like on the old chevy diesels. Mechanical injector pump timed to the cam and just basically a piece of pipe with a pinhole to meter the fuel to the cylinders. They should have left it alone, but no.....you have to a computer do it for you to save the ozne....lol. Yeah, but those old types of fuel injection were very reliable and never gave no problems. Today you get on bad wire and your stranded a 100 miles from nowhere.

I had a old chevy diesel ton truck I just sold and regret it. It didnt matter if it was ten below...as long as the block heater was plugged in and you sprayed some wd 40 down the intake...it would fire right up...puff a second...rattle...and then clear right up and be perfect. Just someone came along and had the right amount of money...lol.

:>

BTw...I stand corrected...I didnt know ase was the short tem for the n word...lol.

 

GM computers just had one presure sensor. They took a Barometric reading before engine start up then held that until the next start.
They did add some programing to recheck the baro during full throttle later.
Ford initially had a Baro and a MAP then went Map only like GM.

 

Brobear is right(arrrgh) about the Bendix/Bosch D-jet being analog.

They both used a reed switch in the distributor to create the actual on off for the injectors and the signal was directly modulated to the desired amount by amplifier type transistors not switching like a digital computer.
It is still a signal going to a box then to the injectors but no off on transistor switching is present.
The D-jet had not yet been improved by Bosch to any noticable degree except for parts quality. It was pretty reliable overall.
The throttle sensor wasn't even a TPS. The position was unknown. You just got a mechanically switched signal while stepping on the throttle then nothing when letting off.
The throttle sensor and the positive coeffecient temp sensors were the most common failures. I worked on a lot of the old Sevilles and D-jet Mercedes in Dallas.

 

Well i have a p4 3.2 and i dont know what it is to have a pc 100% stable, im on my 3rd mobo and probably not the last...
Heat problems!!?? Whats that?? With 7 80mm case fans (case thermalthake chaser III) one zalman cnps 9500cu i colls down to above 35º on bios cant get ºc on window since my mobo (MSI 875 neo fi2rs) has a problem with that and it gives me a temp of 51ºc min 49 max 52, this seams to be a defect with the mobo since msi has recognized the problem, with my asus board and zalman cnps 7000A cu with HT on the min temp on windows was 38ºc and max under 50ºc on bios arround 42ºc...
So the worst decison in my life was buying a p4, if i had bought an athlon xp 64 3.2 that would have been the right choice, if i cant get this crapp to run stable i have no choice but to buy an amd x2 in the near future...

 

Djisas

What memory make and latency are you using? Heat is definately a problem with overclocking a P4, the tend to run hot even when operating within spec. An idle temp for a P4 of 45 is good, and at full load temps shouldn't go above 60. A decent power supply is also a major cause for instability so my advice is look at your memory and your power supply.


BTW, thanks for posting something that doesn't involve cars. I was beginning to think that I was going to have to call in some mods.

 

BroBear,
This is my final word on F/I. In 57 Desoto sold 68 of these beasts. Most all of them were changed to carburator very early on. The aformentioned computer is the only known one in existance. The design was very modern even by todays standards. The electronic componants of the day were not up to the wide variety of temps encountered underneath the hood of a car, vibration, Etc.

How about a computer question? In fact 2 of them. When Spybot and some other programs pop up a window like to confirm a registry change, the accept and cancel buttons can barely be seen. You can't even see the lettering at all. I run an XFX FX5200 PCI w/128 DDR memory. My resolution is set to 1280x1024 @85KHz. I have tried changing the resolution but it stays the same even in 640x480. You can't expand the window by dragging from the edges. Any ideas?

Here's my second question. How do I add a graphic like your "Bear" to my signature? I had no problem putting in my system info but I can't figure out how to include a Jpeg picture. Any help would be appreciated.

Sincerely
theonejrs

 

Memory ocz performançe pc 3200 cl 2-3-3-6 bought 3 days ago...
The PSU could indeed be the problem but the only way to know is to change psu (i have one or 3 in mind)the 1rst board has a problem, it shuts down frequently ht and lan or usb activity helps to the problem.
2 board ASUS P4C800-E dlux i thought that i finaly had stabilized the machine, during 1.5 months there was no problem and then 1 memory module fucked up and the waranty gave me a new one but after (a few days after the 1 one broken) i start having the same problems i tought it was the other memory so i went to the store i bought a twinmos module and when i got home and instaled it the problem contiunued and the memory i send to the store was actualy good so 2 mobo FAILED they gave the money.
3rd mobo MSI 875 neo FI2RS problems instaling the windows on raid 0 mode accidentaly wipped out arround 120gb of stuf, i had to change the controler in order to get it to work, other problesm right from the bigining the window never started the first time it outomaticaly rebooted, so after some drivers updates and bios update to the latest gave me more than 1m before windows boot screen no more reboots during
boot, but brought other problems like frequent blue screens caused by device a deviçe driver i thing i lost proçessor power games started to run slower and some times they crash, i used to take 15-12m to rip a dvd usinf dvdshrink now it takes half an h. Ill have to format this crapp again and see if it fixes annything if not ill try the other bios versions, in the meanwhile i hoppe the 1rts mobo gets fixed or changed by a new one (if the problem lays on it)...

Now a little info on my cooler th Lates Zalman masterpiece the CNPS (stands for computer noise prevention system)9500 cu led aero flow http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/5-cool.html
http://www.chillblast.com/product.php?productid=17148&cat=0&page=1
http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=165&code=005

 

Djisas

OCZ is good memory but it isn't know for its overclockability (just try that in spell check LOL), a power supply can cause havoc on an overclock. AMD's are better for overclocking at this time for a number of reasons but that I suspect you already know.

 

fastest amd 64 fx 57 2000fsb (2.8ghz)
mes

 

Only if you're not into overclocking.

 

To Sophocles,

I ran the computer all week at the 10% (3.30) Turbo On settings and I had no problems with it. Temps seemed to run between 45 & 53 when encoding. I decided to take another step ahead and tried 20%. It got hotter than I wanted to see, 68C when I hit the reset button. I want back to the BIOS and manually set the FSB to 230 which gave me 3.45. Temps aren't too bad. Runs as high as 58C but mostly stays at around 50 while working.

Here's the benchmarks. Please let me know what you think.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3599/345turboonmath1pj.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8702/345turboonmemorybw5xy.jpg
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/6100/345turboonmultimedia5yl.jpg

So far it seems to run pretty good with no stability problems. I left the memory settings alone for now as it improved both in MHz and Bandwith. Should I consider upping the PCI bus speed to 36 or 40?
Is there anything else that I can play around with without too much risk of a meltdown?

Sincerely

Russ

 

theonejrs

Nice job, you're getting about as much as you can get with the hardware that you have. I can't wait to see your new system up and running. Now just leave the Automotive crap alone. LOL

 

theonejrs
Guess we rehashed fuel injection along with Donald's help. Bendix's system was well ahead of it's time. Funny though that Hillborn doesn't get more credit. After all, Rochester borrowed heavily from his design and then they passed along their work to Bendix who replaced mechanical components with electronic ones. They were very futuristic designs and were only ill fated due to poor quality electronic components of the day. The theory was sound, just not the hardware. It was nice visiting history, but best we get back to the home type PCs where we started.

As to your resolution problem. I've not run into that one with Spybot or others. Currently, I use a resolution of 1024x768 which works well for me. I get it with my ATI Radeon card without problems on a 19 inch monitor. Not the x800, we don't need to revisit that either. LOL Nothing to do with the question, just thought I'd mention I use ATI without problems. The 1600x1200 resolution makes things too small for my liking. At 1024x768 resolution, on a 19 in monitor, I have no problems. On a smaller screen, I sometimes need my glasses. As for adjusting the screen size, does your monitor have the adjustments on it? For that matter, what monitor are you using?

If the only problem is the occasional small text, there is the magnifier tool in Accessories (XP). For constant use though, a magnifying utility would be best. Hope that helps.

Almost forgot, you were wondering about an image. In your sig enclose the link for your image inside the tags img and /img in [].
<img]http://www.theurl.com/picture.jpg</img]
I used < instead of [ because the text wouldn't have shown properly. You can see the correct form above the box when you go to post a reply. This is the tag you use for posting captures as well. You can either link to an image on the net, which a lot of sites don't like due to your borrowing from their bandwidth, or use an image storage site like imageshack (free).

 

Sophocles,

You got it! Computers only!!! It is going to be a couple of months before I will be ready to start the new one although I may speed things up a bit by using some of what have in this one and replacing it later. We'll see.

BroBear,

I have a Dell 1226H 19" .25 DOT PITCH SET AT 1280X1024. This is what they used to call a flat screen CRT. Probibly one of the best Dell ever offered for a 19 CRT! It makes people gasp at the quality when I put in a DVD. If it breaks, I will pay to have it fixed
The problem is not small text its that the window is smaller than the content of said window, but only on the bottom. It's like it has a too small frame for the size of the picture. I will fool around and see if I can send a screen shot of it. I noticed it on my neighbor's Dell the other night too.

I tried the URL you gave me but all I get is a window with German Text in the left corner. When I click on the URL it provides, I get plastic and wood products. I have the Image Shack stuff and have sent screen shots to this forum with it but I have no idea how to post a bitmap to my signature so it shows like your animated bear does. what I have isn't animated but I think it's a cool picture, and definatly computer related.

Theonejrs