Intel P4 vs AMD

I am definitely not excluding the factor that AMD (even though just built or building another fab in germany) had issues with supplying and of its size. Naturally, with that, if Dell were to embrace AMD fully, it could be a reality that AMD would not have been able to keep up wth the supply and demand. But that would be my unprofessional speculations as were the others. however, restraint of trade is unconstitutional that is a fact.

 

One last thing, one thing that I like about AMD as a system builder is, that on one motherboard you can have 4 series of cpus. My motherboard the abit AV8 can handle the fx, athlon, dual core and rev-e (i had a winchester 3200+ before i got this 3500+ venice -winchester still running great on another system i built). It saves so much confusion having to worry about so many chipsets and boards to be able to have one board that can fit all. I have the K8T800pro chipset which I like. The only negative is the raid drivers when installing x64 on my raptor drives is a pain in the rear having to use a floppy and getting an txtoem.setup error. One thing that i had to break the illusion over is ghz. Even apple made the point. Hp has white paper comparing the Xeon to the Opteron and even Hp backed up AMD's play with how the most efficient Intel cpus run at lower clockspeed. And how the shorter pipelines with fewer transisters make AMD's ability to react much better than long pipelines and needing to keep them filled so when errors happen it doesnt take so long to flush the lines like Intel's. It just make smore sense that if you can do a job at 2ghz instead of 3.6 you do it. There are articles that talk (i am infamous and bad on remembering names!) about the cost of powerconsumption and one can see why this should help out AMD with its collaboration with IBM on the DSL SOI process. My AMD processors athlons have never gone above 60C, my turion has never gone to 68C. However, it is easier to market a cpu with clockspeed in mind due to there not being one real standard that is universal in performance of processors. Logically it makes sense to think this 3.06 Pentium 4 should beat out this 3500+ AMD system-which is just not the case, but it makes logical sense 3.06ghz p4 is faster ghz than 2.2ghz so one would draw such a idea if they do not have diverse experience with multiple computer systems performances.

 

Interesting ideas, and if the 50% story is true, it really does raise questions over whether it's worth sticking with intel. However, you have to bear in mind that if you can do one job vastly cheaper than the other, even if it's not done as well, that option usually gets chosen. I would really like to see a day when Dell offer Dimension Athlon64s or XPS X2/FXs. But I still think we're some way from reaching this. Oh, and one last thing, if you've more to say, edit your previous post rather than adding more. It's just forum etiquette.

 

Thanks for the advice, I thought of that after I did it, it would make more sense and would be more proper too thanks

One thing i have found interesting is, many people do not know who Intel or AMD is. I remember before getting into computers because of my need I kept on seeing the blue man group and wondering who the heck is Intel with that famous ding. I guess the most important point I have learned in many aspects in life is that the whole cannot be reduced to a part as the gestalts have stated. A computer is a collection of parts working as a whole, just like the body a collection of atoms, elements, molecules, cells, tissue and organ systems working towards a goal. We may talk about human nature in genes but we cannot claim the human is the gene because there is simply a lot more to our existance than the part, so Holism is something that can as well be placed upon computers too.

I think that the Japan motion could have been used as a sort of 'precedent' or somtehign to use to substantiate a suit here. Or to allow into their argument other areas have as well. I think personally, there needs to be better work in America when it comes to consistency in the justice department.

 

There's no question that Intel has been using predatory business practices in an attempt to financially harm AMD through corporate intimidation. Intel has crossed the line even further than Microsoft did. This has harmed the Consumer and I believe that Intel would lose this battle if the US department of Justice would do their jobs.

The reference to Japan wasn't a comparison of US versus Japanese business practices it was only to supply evidence to support AMD's allegations against Intel. The Japanese do use questionable business practices and we should have dealt with it years ago.

 

Brobear, my board,(Asus P4P800-E Deluxe,) does include/support Prescott 478 pin processors as well as the Northwood. It’s a great board, its on 24/7 and never a hiccup. Just about bullet proof I would say!

 

And it's Asus. Funny that!

I do hope that AMD come out the winner in the legal confrontation, they deserve to with their corporate spirit (lol challenging intel to a dual) and suffering for too long against intel's corrupt practices. Who knows, this may allow AMD CPUs to become cheaper and/or better sooner!

 

mrpsych

After all this is a technical thread. You've managed to write an article here on the unfair and predatory business activities of Intel. That one sentence sums up what you've said. Other than your different takes on it, it always comes back to the one statement. Where are the supporting facts for your statement or are we to assume you are the resident expert? I only mentioned your use of Japan in your example because they are proven guilty of what Intel is being accused of. I don't know of the times that the US has complained. In Japan it's a government attitude, not just a single business; that is unless you look at Japan as one big multi-faceted conglomerate.

I'd like to see sources giving the marketshare figures, not just someone saying that is what Intel has. We know they have the majority of the market, that goes without saying at this point. I'd like to see where the data to support your statements is coming from. What articles on court rulings have you supporting your statements and what fines have been levied against Intel? I'm not taking sides, but I'd like to see the info. Or is it a lack of court action that is the problem? If influenced properly, I might become an Intel basher myself. LOL If you look around those government offices, I bet you'll find a lot of PCs with "Intel Inside". More collusion? I suspect mass marketing.

Without AMD, Intel would have very little competition from IBM. I'm just curious why AMD hasn't made more of an impact until just recent years. Poor IBM stayed in the market with only Apple PCs the last several years. IBM pulled out of the PC business in April 05, before the announcement that Intel was coming onboard at Apple. An interesting item is that AMD was already being used by Apple in the Mini Mac. Whether by "hook or crook", Intel got their foot in the door at Apple after AMD. Gaining that small marketshare is almost negligible as Apple sales are minute as far as the market goes. Guess every little bit counts though. With Apple owners' aversion to Wintel, it would encourage the loyal consumers by not going with Intel as the replacement. Not knowing what was said behind closed doors, I suspect Intel had a viable product at the best price. Just call me naive, but before I call a crook a crook, I like to have at least some proof to convict him.

Most of what I say is easily verifiable from the Washington Post piece and from Encyclopedia sources such as Wikipedia online. Here is an article on PC history that might be interesting to some. There were a few facts I wasn't completely aware of (such as the Gang Of 9 that got IBM's goat). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible
It's a decent read if one wants to get a quick progression of the personal computer scene and pick up a few historical facts. Such as AMD was started in 1969 and Intel in 68. Where has AMD been all these years? Early alliances made some of the "players" what they are today. Notably Microsoft with Windows and Intel. The name Wintel was coined to reference the type system. You can read about it, though it isn't rife with collusion.

So, I showed what I was referring to and gave exact sources for my statements. Yes I take things literally when someone comes on a forum and makes a statement in a tech thread. As I said venting is best done in the open forums set up for venting points of view. Here we like to see the figures when they're quoted and know where they came from. Were your comments on the PCs exaggerated as well? We're still looking forward to those screenshots of your benches. I'd like to see those and then you can continue to say "Intel uses unfair and predatory business practices". Catchy line, but I like seeing proof. Now for those benches you mentioned...

I'm not saying Intel hasn't done some things wrong. Though specific proof would be nice before we condemn them. I think I'd suspect AMD for giving away equipment to gather business, is that called a bribe. I don't see any major companies as being squeaky clean. Intel is predominantly where it is due to being in the right place at the right time with a viable product. They weren't the first on the spot, but when IBM started to cut it's own throat back in the 80's, it wasn't long until Intel started capturing the market. The main reason was no competition, or none of merit. Given free reign for so many years, it's obvious why Intel has it's huge market share. Back to the illegal business practices, maybe, but that wasn't what has given them the huge edge they enjoy. For a working PC, it's still hard to beat a good inexpensive PC with "Intel Inside". Granted, AMD is doing well, but they're the new kid on the block as far as having a competitive processor.

The early 1980s is when the personal PC market started. Shall we say 25 years, 2 and 1/2 decades, only a quarter of a century. Not long is it. AMD has only started making a ripple the past few years and has only developed some superior processors over the past year or so. Their initial designs proved to be better under extreme loads, but that has only become apparent as the programming requires more processing power. We've seen those limits reached the past couple of years. Speed won't do it alone for Intel and even AMD isn't resting on their laurels. Dual core anyone? I know AMD has the best one at present, but the game has just got started. LOL Buying now, I'd go for the AMD.

 

Scubabud,
Thanks for the info. I suspected as much, especially after Sophocles' comment.

Sammorris
The litigation makes AMD a winner even if they don't win in court. It's almost impossible to buy advertisement that works as well. (Or is that what they're doing? LOL) I like the competition and AMD doesn't seem to be going away. In fact their market share is improving. I enjoy the healthy competition. That's what foster's the technological advancements and brings the better goodies to us, the consumers. The advent of Vista is holding me back from a major custom build as well as the promised improvements in CPUs (doesn't hurt that my current PC is capable of doing the things I want). A lot will be happening in 06, so it may be next year before I decide. I have things to play with and I don't have to have a custom PC "fix" to tide me over.

 

Sophocles

I am dying to see your scores!!! When can we expect them? I know you want to tweak this and that, but can you give us a hit as to your Sandra CPU Arithmetic Benchmark currently at least? Thanks

 

brobear

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not about to read all of that.LOL

No one has to prove anything they only have to say what they believe. There's equal evidence supporting both views and until this lawsuit is played out no one side can claim to be the right one. I firmly believe that Intel used unfair business practices largely based on common sense. Why would reputable PC manufacturers choose to pay more for an inferior product unless something besides name popularity is amiss? Microsoft lost their case and were in fact found to have broken antitrust laws for doing a whole lot less than Intel has done.


One doesn't need proof before making a against against Intel, they just need reasonable suspicion which will in turn lead to proof. If every allegation ever made had to come from proof freedom itself would be in jeopardy.

Now back to playing with my new opteron.

 

well, brobear, as i have stated in what i wrote, you can go to AMD's site and read the court filing for yourself like I did. As well, i stated and quoted Hp's white paper. The discussion in itself is not objective between who is vs amd or intel. AMD cannot file in court stating and quoting Japan as swuch if it were lies that would be purjery, as well as other news sources.
In communication you need to be able to look at the context on whta is being stated or else you will be doomed to misinterpret and 'confirmation bias' exact point. Your confirmation bias totally sees things the way you want to see them so therefore you take what i said out of context, like a joke and take it literal why? because it confirms your preexisting conceptions. The point I made is still valid, in such a huge market there has to be exceeding influences to keep such a high marketshare. AMD as well stated in its court filing that Hp turned down 90% of their million free cpus!!! It is in the court filing, read it and you will see it. so that means they only took 100,000 of the 1,000,000 why would a company do that? Teh statements made to AMD were that of retaliation via incentives. ANd yes THAT IS RESTRAINT OF TRADE, AND IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND IS PREDATORY. America by no means is innocent when it comes to monopolies, we invented it, via Rockefeller, microsoft used some of rockefeller's ideas, and Intel's is even worse. Making contracts and retaliating via funds for selling competitor's product is a restraint of trade in many ways. It constrains the Teir 1 company as well as the customer from freedom. I will provide the links to get the lawsuit you can read it.
If Gateway and Hp were given penalties in form of no incentive how do you think a small company is going to fair? You have major companies who sell millions of pcs being constrained, do you really think the small guy has any choice? If the big honchos cant have the backbone against Intel no small guy is that is for sure. And there is plenty of stuff out there on Intel's stealing of intellectual property they put into hteir products y ou can read that too and have paid big money. i will provide those links as well. here are some links, http://news.com.com/Intel+to+abide+by+Japan+FTC+recommendations/2100-1014_3-5649589.html?tag=nl

one of many like these below
http://news.com.com/Intel+to+pay+in+chip+patent+dispute/2100-1001_3-882720.html?tag=nl
update Intel has agreed to pay at least $300 million to settle a long-running legal dispute with Intergraph, which at one time developed its own microprocessor for high-end workstations, the companies said in a joint release.

Under the terms of the deal, announced Monday, Intel will pay $300 million to settle claims that its Pentium lines of chips infringed on patents held by Huntsville, Ala.-based Intergraph.

The company also agreed to pay up to another $150

here is the full complaint filed by AMD here below
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/DownloadableAssets/AMD-Intel_Full_Complaint.pdf

This one is a nice article on same topic
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/03/09/MN59155.DTL
Intel Settles Antitrust Suit On Trial's Eve
FTC had accused chipmaker of abusing monopoly power

Again, I am not immune against 'confirmation bias' either or seeing my preexisting schema into things, so please dont take it like it is different, because by human nature bias seeps in even at times we dont recognize it, which is a great point of interest that I have been researching on the issue as a psychological quasi sociological standpoint. Confirmation bias destroys empirical research, it makes it invalid. One thing though, that I have found interesting, is going to newegg's site and reading the reviews from customers and seeing the pros and cons. One mode con against Intel reported by experience customer is 'heat' and not good enough heatsink. HOwever, even myself personally, i need to look at the 'falsification principle' and look at what denies my ideas rather than seekign to confirm it.


One thing that comes to my mind is, how can Intel's cpu idle same or greater temp than my Turion at full tilt while it is on my lap? 100% load on my lap with my leg covering the whole and just meeting Intel's often reported idle temps is by far not a positive.

Here is the link to Hp's paper on Xeon and AMD and a quote from it and the link
Overall design of the pipelines and how this relates to processor frequency. Xeon family processors optimize frequency at the expense of pipeline execution efficiency, while Opteron processors optimize the pipeline efficiency at the expense of frequency.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c00238028/c00238028.pdf

Implementation of multi-threaded parallelism. Xeon family processors include Hyper-Threading technology, which allows different threads to operate in parallel, in addition to instruction-level parallelism. Opteron processors offer only instruction-level parallelism.

Now, my memory is good, and as well you can see where my thoughts egven though i created them they have come from this point precisely by hp in that document, below
Implementation of multi-threaded parallelism. Xeon family processors include Hyper-Threading technology, which allows different threads to operate in parallel, in addition to instruction-level parallelism. Opteron processors offer only instruction-level parallelism.
(insert opinion:MY POINT ON LAGGING VIA EXPERIENCE USING INTEL BELOW MADE WELL BY HP)
This causes a “bubble” or a stall in the pipeline, in which the processor cannot execute the instruction until it obtains the value for C from memory. This bubble must propagate all the way through the pipeline, forcing each stage that contains the bubble to sit idle, wasting execution resources during that clock cycle.
Clearly, the longer the pipeline, the more significant this problem becomes.
Processor stalls due to branch misprediction
Processor stalls often occur as a result of one instruction being dependent on another. If the program has a branch, such as an IF… THEN loop, the processor has two options. The processor either waits for the critical instruction to finish (stalling the pipeline) before deciding which program branch to take, or it predicts which branch the program will follow.
If the processor predicts the wrong code branch, it must flush the pipeline and start over again with the IF… THEN statement using the correct branch. The longer the pipeline, the higher the performance cost for branch mispredicts. For example, the longer the pipeline, the more the processor must execute speculative instructions which must be discarded when a mispredict occurs.HP Paper

Personal analogy, key point analogy:
Businesses are always talking about 'effectiveness' we will run from the above statement made by hp professionals. Say you hae someone who is efficient and say you have someone who is quick which do you prefer? Well, you haev one the analogy to Intel, you have a neurotic with a hyperspeed thoughts rushing around in the head at 3.6ghz. Then comes along the efficient 'mindful' person, who doesnt need to run at such high speeds because he is a more efficient individual, therefore, being released from neuroticism he or she can get more work done on less energy. If one meditates and alleviates oneself from anxiety they can get more work done at lower clockspeed, the neurotic who has not mastered emotion will continue to stall due to exhaustion, have heat progblems and have to run at 3.4ghz to complete a job done by a 2.2ghz mindful meditative individual. It just makes sense to get the job done with the efficient and less power rrather than wasting energy. This hsa implications for humans as well as the nice sample given by Intel and AMD debate

I just stumbled on a great advertising statement!!!! It is simple yet explains a lot. AMD could make a commercial analogizing a neurotic state of mind and then produce an analogy of themselves as the efficient 'mindful' type. One could create great advertisements (not to be conceeded) from that concept alone. Intel=Anxiety and waste vs AMD=productive and calm. Not only that, but AMD could work wonders politically wiht that, one could start up an environmentalist combat against Intel as well. One could come up with a commercial about people not being able to afford heat and then make the analogy of energy used more by Intel than AMD and then create teh implication of all the Intel users wasting all the energy. That would be such a great propaganda tool!!! This would be even greater than Intel's propaganda!!! To make the analogy one is not stating explicitly but people can take it that way that Intel's energy is robbing people based on their need for excessive frequencies.

well, similar to people who drive around in the city wiht huge automobiles that take gas mileage of about 4 cars, analogous, why do people in the city need a hum-v? It brings thoughts to think that America has been stated to use more energy than many other countries combined together. Does driving around in a hum-v make one look cool? well yeah, but is there an additional ego-need for the ability to know they are using more gasoline than most serve the same purpose? Like, I have a 3.6ghz computer and it is as fast as 2.4ghz, is there a subconscious or unconscious ego-pleasure out of knowing the more use of wattage that satisfies it? I have always thought of Intel as great marketers and I think possibly this could be some reasoning behind their wattage usage. Maybe Intel knows people love 'amount' they love and have a need for 'excess' so they crank out clockspeed to satisfy it!!!!

 

mrpsych


Hmm! This is the Intel P4 vs AMD thread, but who would've thought that you guys were going to take things so literally. LOL

I thought the "versus" meant hardware comparisons?

 

Got a little abstract but, is related becaue the topic of 'versus' does apply

 

That it does and very good points I might add.

 

Only recently has AMD come up with the best CPU. As far as the "work" models go, the Intel is still a viable option. With the various companies already producing Intel machines, it doesn't make a lot of sense to switch with the market share enjoyed by Intel machines. There's customer loyalty built over the years as well as the ability to sell a good machine at a reasonable price. Prices on machines have been going down, not up. So, the consumer isn't being gouged. Also, the competition we're seeing now is spurring the industry to bring out more and better processors and systems.

There are companies selling PCs with the AMD processors. Still yet, the majority of consumers are purchasing "Intel Inside" systems. There's a lot to be said for customer loyalty and market visibility, along with reasonable prices. Me, I'm not so loyal to either camp. If a third party came out with a better CPU, I'd go with them. As a consumer, I owe no loyalty to the manufacturers, it should be the other way around. As it is, I try to buy the best for the price when I go to make a purchase. Since the AMD systems are on the market, why aren't consumers leaving the Intels on the shelf and going with AMD? I don't think the long arm of Intel is twisting those of the consumers.

I'm not contesting the fact that Intel may be using "unfair and predatory trade practices". I just like having some idea of where the corroborating info is coming from. I don't mind anyone speculating, as long as it's made clear that is what it is. As I said before topics like this would be better off in the General Discussion section. With the venting going on, Safety Valve might be the appropriate choice. LOL

I still think we should be getting back to the Intel vs AMD on the basis of the hardware itself. Discussing the intricacies of law and psychology along with personal opinions could go on indefinitely. Like I asked earlier, where has AMD been the last 36 or 37 years? They had to come up with some decent equipment before they could litigate against the giant Intel. I'm more interested in the products and not the politics.

[bold]Now that we've beat that topic to death, Intel and their unfair practices, we should return to the hardware. That said, how bout those benches mrpsych?[/bold]

Sophocles,
When do we get those results on your new "toy"?

More on my simple upgrade with complications later this week. LOL

 

Soon, I'm stress testing for stability right now.

But I can give this much up. It looks at though both cores run stable at 2.7 Ghz even.

 

Brobear,
AMD hasn't had the resources to compete head to head with Intel.
The main reason AMD has the edge for the moment in processors is Intels failings.
Intel traded performance for Mhz then marketed heavily to sell the P4 line. While Intel was pushing Mhz for money out the door AMD took the gamble that overall performance would sell procs and poured all their money into the Optetron/Athlon development. It tooks years and nearly cost AMD everything. Thankfully the gamble finally paid off for all invloved.
We have better procs, and Intel is forced to rethink and retool to compete. Ultimately giving us better prices and performance choices.
AMD should become a larger and better competitor.

I want Intel to continue to prosper as well as AMD. Keeps me in chips.

 

brobear

Here's where I am now. You'll note that the X2 4800 is compared just below my bench and it's considered to be the fastest stock dual core on the planet.

[ing]http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soph4zt.jpg[/img]

 

brobear

bite me.