Intel vs. AMD

great thanks

 

I don't know if you caught it or not, but I noted you built with a good board. The 8 phase power management makes a difference. I think I saw where DocTy used one for one of his builds. I used one too. You really don't need to use the newer BIOS releases to get good performance from it. I used some midrange processors on it and it's easy to get 15% with them. I took one AMD dual core from 2.4GHz to over 2.8 and it was stable, except for Prime computations. It would encode and do everything without crashing and there was no faults with the encoding.

 

aabbccdd
You're in luck, I found it. Short-Media has some good material on OCing. The guide prints out to about 75 pages. You still need to know your way around a BIOS before you can do the job right. The ASUS manual gives a lot of info. Read up on the BIOS controls from the manual for the board. If you got a OEM board and need a manual, you can download from the ASUS support site.
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=300
Thanks to lemonlime. The article is dated February 06, so the material isn't out of date.

I figured I'd post this so everyone who needs it can find it and check it out. I looked a long time before finding it, but it's not a secret. I learned a few things from it. The earlier guides I found weren't as good.

 

PacMan777,

First off it's not budget ram. it Corsair XMS Cas2 and I want to see what the 185 will do in the TForce MB. Besides I've drooled over that chip since the day it came out! At well over $800 it was out of the question. Now at a lot less than $400, I can have one! The set-up in the Tforce 6100 939 has every bell and whistle known to man and a lot that I don't know a thing about. I'm surprised that you can't control the intensity of the leds with the set-up! LOL! The manual sucks! Almost nothing on the bios except the OC-Engine. If I'm going to learn to do an AMD Dual-Core, I'm going to have to learn what all that stuff does! Like I say, I want to learn and there's plenty more time for a Conroe. Besides, it'll be fun! Just like aabbccdd is having now!

Happy Holidays,
theone

 

Theonejrs
They're all fun. The BIOS(s) are only made by a few companies, so there's not that many variations. The board builders have some more customized than others. Learn to do the BIOS and there ain't much to building. Building a PC is easier than some erector sets. I'm not a whiz at it, but I get by in the BIOS. I'm horrible with erector sets. LOL

That PC 3200 XMS Corsair Cas 2 is some of the RAM that boots up C3 on a AMD system. Be prepared for that. It's got good heat spreaders. The stock voltage is 2.75V, but you can take it to 2.80 without a problem. Sometimes that extra bit helps stabilize the RAM. Maybe the BIOS controls on the board you intend to use will help with the timing. The newer AMDs don't take as much voltage as some of the earlier CPUs, so be careful with the vCore.

About $38 dollars less at only one vendor we know of. I suggest you get it while it's available. Newegg is about the next lowest at over $400. They may sell out before the prices get much lower. I suspect the nice prices we're seeing are like the old gas wars Dad talked about. I wonder when the prices will start going back up.

At least you're not going into the build thinking it will beat the new Intels (which happen to be less expensive for better performance).

 

Theonejrs
I went to the Biostar support site and checked out the TForce board you are so impressed with. I didn't see what was special. It uses the same NF4 chipset that the Asus A8N uses and has an Award BIOS like the ASUS. You're right, not much of a manual. They have a download for it from support.

The Asus boards have as many bells and whistles, looks like more to me. The board aabbccdd has with his rig is a whole lot better than the TForce. You can get the specs and download a manual from ASUS support. The best way to check out an ASUS board before buying is to review its manual. Your choice on the board, but I don't see the attraction. If there's some reason you like the board and it has something the Asus boards don't have, let me know. The A8N32 has the 8 phase power management, which automatially gives it a big boost up in my eyes. The RAM support for the TForce is listed as only DDR 400 PC 3200. Note the PC 3500 for the A8N32 and the XMS Corsair PC3500LLPro made specially for the Asus board by Corsair. Better memory support up front. Add the better power management and you have a runaway winner with the A8N32, plus it has a good manual. LOL

 

I know I built with a good and tested board. All the sites are using my board for their AMD benchmarks so I figured I couldn't go wrong.

It has OC'd without a hitch and the PCI bus is already locked. The BIOS are easy to use and the onboard temp sensors are pretty accurate. Taking my 4400+ to 3.0GHz would be no problem but I just don't feel the need.

I was originally going to make my AM2 cross-over a budget build with 1GB of OCZ gold, a Tforce AM2(a great board) and a 3800+ but my better judgement screamed for higher quality so I went with my favorite RAM, a better board, and a 4400+, I do not regret it. I consider my self a mid/high end user

Merry Christmas to all

 

LOL

i knew i saw my name mentioned on a few occasions~

anyways, as PacMan777 stated earlier, it's good to understand and fully understand what components give you exactly what kind of performance...

i have mentioned in the past IF BUILDING FROM SCRATCH, i would definitely recommend an Intel Core 2 duo system...i agree with the others in that IF YOU HAVE SPARE PARTS already on hand and are simply doing an "upgrade" of sorts without committing a lot of money (on a budget), then AMD is a very viable solution

anyways, i don't contribute much to this particular thread only because people tend to argue about performance between AMD and Intel by either going off benchmarks they see on various websites and can skew the comparisons based on their own agenda as they see fit (ie. only linking certain benchmarks that a particular processor/gpu/etc. perform exceptionally well in compared to other "standard" benchmarks vs. the competitor - AMD or Intel/ Nvidia or ATi that they happen to be a "fan" of)

as PacMan777 mentioned, i HAVE built on both platforms and enjoy my systems equally for what their worth...i personally use my AMD system as a daily grind machine and use my Intel for mostly testing purposes and OC'in potential btw..i've used 4 different motherboards now for the Core 2 duo platform, all of which are excellent for overclocking with my newest one being the eVGA 680i which i've managed to take a stock E6600 @ 2.4ghz to over 4ghz briefly on custom water cooling. i haven't managed to get it stable yet, so more tweaking will be involved come the New Year...

for those interested in my various benchmarks, PM me and i will link you to them privately.

@theone

i know that on the various websites that we are both a member of, you've been asking aabbccdd for the opty 185 benches, well, as you are aware, i too ordered one from TigerDirect around the same time...UPS managed to "misplace" my package somewhere along the way and i finally got it in yesterday, they blame the "delay" due to the holiday season and how busy things are...whatevers...

anyways, took me all of 10 min. to swap out my 4400+ x2 and drop in the opteron 185, i haven't really "pushed" it yet due to it being so new and i'm also waiting for the thermal compound to cure and set before i max this bad boy out! but in the meantime, here is the arithmetic on Sandra just so you can get an idea of what is possible (don't worry, for those that know me, i'm EXTREME when it comes to overclocking, i don't settle for what the avg. enthusiast can achieve...i'm gonna go higher, i'm not satisfied with my temps right now until the thermal compound sets, once i'm happy...then i'm going right over 3.0ghz)





it's currently at 2.925ghz @ 21219 MIPS, so that gives you a ballpark figure using Sandra 2007 (naturally, it would be higher on Sandra 2005, but we all know how outdated that version is)

this should give you the confidence and settle your curiousity if it's something you might plan on purchasing in the future, i naturally sold my 4400+ x2 to a friend so all in all, i spent a little over $100 on this "upgrade" of mine on the AMD rig. this is still on the Asus A8N32-SLI mobo that was talked about earlier in this thread with 2gb OCZ Platinum pc-3200 memory, marginally overclocked to 225mhz at this point (will bump that up too at a later time)



Happy Holidays everyone, gonna go back to enjoying some quality time with the family...i bid everyone a safe and pleasant season.

docTY

 

Kivory666,

$100!!! Are you any good at finding wallets? ROFL!!

Enjoy your new toy and we'll see what it can do when you get to tweaking it some more. What MB are you using by the way?

Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year and a Happy and Safe Holiday Season to you and yours.

Happy Holidays,
theone

 

Estuansis
I've not used one of the TForce boards yet, so I can't put them down. I don't see the big deal. I went to the site and checked the specs and like theonejrs said, not much of a manual. You'd better know your stuff or have another support site. They use the same chipsets used by other board builders and a bunch of the other brands have as many or more options. DFI and Gigabyte make boards I like more. Usually if Asus has a board with as much I'll get one of them. I've had good experience with Asus and a lot of sites use them for testboards. I told theonejrs thay also have a manual. I even notice a lot of people on the forums like them, more than don't anyway. Somebody always goes against whats popular. "Mine's better ..."

I agree with you, you made a good choice on boards for your AM2. I like the ASUS boards. Asus saved the best for the M2N32 boards though. Like the A8N and A8N32, Asus saved the better power management for the higher end board. If you ever use SLI, the M2N is 2x8 on the PCI Express x16 slots and M2N32 is full 2x16. Asus loads the "32" boards down with extras to make them more OC friendly as well as gamer friendly with the better graphics. I guess they use SLI for things besides games, but that's what comes to mind. If you're serious about trying to go to 3.0GHz with the 4400, the M2N32 might have been a better choice. Money always seems to get in the way of our fun, they make the better stuff cost more.

If you ever get the 4400 to 3.0GHz, I'd be interested in your settings and bench results. I just can't seem to get the 2.2 and 2.4GHz AMDs to go that high. It's more in the math than the voltages. Like I said, I'm no expert so I'm probably missing something. Let me know.

 

sorry, i guess i hid the mobo line within my other spiel in my last post.

Asus A8N32-SLI i happen to be running SLI right now with (2) 7900gtx at full x16 each~

docTY

edit:

@PacMan777

i know this question/comment was not directed at me, but i can tell you RIGHT NOW that on AIR cooling, 3.0ghz [bold]stable[/bold] on a 4400+ x2 (don't matter whether it's socket 939 or AM2) IS NOT POSSIBLE. for a person's system to be stable enough to run benches, yes it could happen, but to run it @ 3.0ghz on AIR 24/7...no way i guarantee you that. on water/phase change, very likely, but AIR...definitely not...i don't care if you use the coveted Tuniq Tower or a high end Zalman, Artic Freezer, or a TT branded one...

as you mentioned, despite the voltages/settings, unless you have a high-end mobo to help you stabilize w/ something like the 8 phase power management as found on the higher end models, a person is only capping his/her potential even more by going lower end, understanding that one will only get as high in OC'in as their budget allows (ie. high end mobo, memory, good stepping of cpu = higher OC- if going with budget/value ram, decent mobo, regular cpu = the OC'in results will be lower...that is common sense...to get the truly high OC's and more importantly MAKE IT STABLE...it's gonna cost ya~ )

docTY

 

Theonejrs
He said it's still on the A8N32. I don't know what he'd find much better for the job with a 939. I'm partial to the "32" boards for their power management.

Kivory666
Looking at your numbers, you should have plenty of room to hit 3.0GHz with that processor. The HT is only at 900 and usually the safe range is 1700-2200 which means 850-1100 in the HT Link in CPU-Z. Probably the only thing you'll need to do is crank up the clock speed. That's why I mentioned the math on the midrange AM2 4400. With the multipliers, I can't seem to get the math to work out to get higher. Sure as I crank the HT over 2200 things start breaking down. First the computation integrity goes and then the actual system stability. You've done a bunch of these it seems and push them to the limit. I'll PM you for the benches of the 4400 on the A8N32 board. I'm interested in how high you got it stable. Another quick question. Does the OCZ time better on the AMD system than the XMS Corsair PC3200. I had some boot at C3 and couldn't get it down. Your 2.5, 3, 2, 5 looks good.

 

Kivory 666
LOL Looks like you answered my questions as I was writing them. That leaves only the question on the OCZ RAM.

I'll slow down on looking for those OCs if the math doesn't work (unless I decide to go to liquid or phase change).

 

LOL Yer preachin to the choir.

 

@PacMan777

seems our posts crossed paths, then hitting refresh there it is! LOL

anyways, to be honest with you, i haven't used the 2gb kit of Corsair branded XM2 DDR pc-3200s on the AMD setup, i only have OCZ brand Platinums pc-3200 for DDR (i got a good deal on them at the time and they were "good enough" and comparable to the Corsairs) i have since abandoned the DDR market and have gone solely with DDR2; i have several kits of Corsair and G.Skill high-end but they're DDR2 (Dominator pc2-8888 and G.Skill pc2-8500 respectively)

so, unfortuanately, i can't tell ya from first-hand experience how to get the Corsair DDRs down further than CAS3 timings. loosening the timings will give you a higher RAM overclock, but if you run at default timings, to secure a CAS2 or even CAS2.5 (as in my case) it will be difficult to overclock the ram higher without loosening the timings it's a compromise of sorts..i'm sure it could be done w/ the Corsair 3500Pro's or higher, but i don't own a set of those either~

docTY

 

I am aware of the cooling. I saw Gigabyte selling a nice water cooling kit for <$60. I might take a look for my birthday in March lol.

But I think 2.8GHz is not out of the question on air. Just would have to be careful of the temps.

If I ever take it any higher I'll have to break my personal barriers and run some benchmarks. I haven't actually run any yet for this build. But if you look a ways back I have 3D Mark 03 scores posted for both this system and my X2 3800+ with the X850XT that is now in my Sempron 3100+ build.

Here, I found my FPS and 3D Mark 03 just now

 

Kivory 666
Thanks for the info. It goes along with what I was thinking. With the development of RAM and the increasing speeds, I wouldn't want to use older RAM unless I already have it, including the PC3200, with faster DDR available at similar pricing. I'll go with the fastest RAM a board will support and I can fit in the budget. I still think they should give us the PC parts for free. LOL

 

Estuansis
Have you run any of the Sandra benches (Arithmetic, Multi Media, and Memory), checked your computation integrity with Prime95, and give your system a torture test with OCCT? They tell more about stability than graphics results. Kivory gave use his Sandra Arithmetic and CPU-Z which tell OCers something about his performance. Graphics depend on both the CPU and GPU for total score. Which means a lesser processor with a better GPU can match a better CPU with a lesser GPU. That skews graphics results. The benches and tests I mentioned are common for OCers to compare results and give a good picture of OC performance.

 

Again another misleading result. You show beating the conroe... no problem. What you should of noted was that the results was your oc'd 185 to the stock conroe. Maybe that is one of the reasons you do not like to post.

 

kivory 666

Kind of double standard would you not say? You just "skewed".