Intel vs. AMD

I'm not really saying it's bad... It's just that I don't think I've ever found a better motherboard than my DS3.

The DS3 is just as good as any Asus board I've ever used. And I've used some very good ones.

Asus A8N5X: Flawless quality but no Sata 3.0 ports

Asus A8N-E: Beefier and better big brother to the A8N5X. My best recommendation for a 939 single core OC build.

Asus M2N-SLi Deluxe: Great AM2 overclocker and the standard AM2 bench board for many websites.

I can respect the P5W boards for sure. But I don't think I could use another board since using my DS3.

 

Estuansis,

If I remember rightly, and I might be wrong, the subject came up about some different boards. I seem to remember saying something like "with the problems I had with the P5N-E, I'm a bit gun shy about buying any Asus MB right now"! something along the lines of suggesting the DS3 v1.33. I have no experience with the P5W and I know Mort81 has a very good (soon to go higher!LOL!) OC on his. No matter though. I know we are both happy with our choice, and you can say that even after having to RMA one!

I know what the DS3 can do now which is why I'm getting excited hoping mine will have an E4400 in it in the not too distant future. This one as it stand continues to impress me. In addition to the OC. I was able to kick the memory up to 910MHz, Trick out the memory settings a bit and OC the Video card to Fata1ty specs and it flies! The 10x multi of the 4400 at $139, makes it in my eyes the best budget overclocker you can buy right now and you don't have to burn up the fsb (jk) to do it! The fsb of 1456 on my 4300 with a 4400 installed will yield 3.64GHz with the same buss speed and the memory at 910MHz. It would take a 455/1820 buss to do it with the 6400. It ought to sing pretty good! I'm going to be disappointed if I can't get to 3.5-3.6GHz, and it should run cooler than the E6400 because of the much higher multi of 10 vs 8!

Clock On,
theone

 

theone,

I'm very content with my OC at 3.6ghz and even if I do upgrade to a thermalright ultra 120 extreme cpu hs, I doubt I will push my OC any higher. my goal was to reach a buss speed of 400mhz and that's where I'm at. the purpose of the thermalright hs would be only to lower my cpu temp a few more degrees even though it is by no means too hot now.

I want to maintain 400mhz buss speed because this allows me to run my memory at rated speed (800mhz), voltage (2.1), and timings (4-4-4-12).

 

@estuansis

reason being that while GOOD memory for the price, it's NOT considered "performance memory" which is what the discussion was centered around...i've owned and used Patriot memory in the past, but even comparing the two links you put up from Newegg, it's a good deal for the PRICE, but for DDR sticks, i never settled for anything less than solid 2-2-2-6 timings for 512mb sticks (Mushkin got it right for ddr-pc3200) and for 1gb sticks, i went the OCZ route because they were cheaper for the speed they reached...

even your own DDR2 kit you have, that's not performance memory either...it's pc2-5300 with CAS5 latency, you'd have to overclock it up to pc2-6400 (800mhz) just to even play in the same ballpark/league as the others who have pc2-6400 kits at even tighter timings of CAS4 (4-4-4-12 to be more specific) running @800mhz.

i think the discussions here tend to "blur the lines" a bit when comparing components, there is a HUGE difference between "mid-range" quality components vs. that of high-end enthusiasts components. the price is naturally a definitive sign of that...

i've mentioned it before, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong w/ "bargain shopping" as i do it a lot myself, and getting the best "bang for the buck" is a great feeling; but don't mistake getting MID-RANGE quality components and THINK/falsely believe they can perform up to the specs of high-end enthusiast components that are double the price.

if that were the case, why would people even BOTHER to pay $200+ for a motherboard? $400+ for 2gb (2 x 1gb) ultra LOW latency (CAS3) or uber HIGH bandwidth memory? or $500+ for a high end video card (like the 8800gtx that you currently have)....it's foolish to think that a $120 card can perform like a $500 card, as it is just as foolish to think that a pc2-5300 (DDR2667 with CAS5 timings to begin with) can even compare to a stock pc2-6400 (DDR2800 with CAS4 timings stock), there is simply NO comparison.

don't take it the wrong way, i am not judging or condeming YOUR own choice of memory, as i'm sure it fits YOUR bill and needs just fine, but it's misinformation and you are only fooling youself to think it is to be considered a "performance" kit because you can overclock it, i've never had a single memory kit EVER that i haven't been able to overclock, all memory is capable of OC'in (even if it's only a few mhz for the bottom end of the barrel sticks). the standard for which memory modules are judged changes as technology advances, but currently, for DDR2, any sticks that can't maintain stability @CAS4 timings are NOT considered "performance kits"

i'm not trying to "call you out," but we need to draw the line that distinguishes "best bang for the budget" parts from "high end components" should a person be reading this thread in hopes of making an educated decision as to what is "best" for THEM and their budget. FACTUAL statements are very different than "it works great for me because i own it" opinions; while one's recommendations due to PERSONAL experience can play heavily into helping another person decide on a component, that opinion can still be biased and not truly representative of the product itself or the company that manufacturers it.

 

Taken with some salt

I definitely see your meaning in every blow lol. And I understand the HUGE differences between quality memory and quality performance memory. I, myself, am going to be getting an upgrade soon.

I suppose I just meant to point out my own experiences as a whole with that particular brand.

Don't neglect to notice the Crucial Ballistix DDR2 667 CL3 I have in my AM2 build:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146567

I simply bought the Patriot Signature because I figured that I would be given quality RAM from the start based on personal experience. But I can definitely tell the difference between my Patriot and my Crucial.

An upgrade is definitely in the works.

I'm not looking for really high performance enthusiast memory but it would be nice to be comfortable above 3.2GHz. My case is also getting a replacement along with my motherboard when the time comes for the upgrade.

As stated before I'm not a benchmark enthusiast. I use my computer to play games. Plain and simple. That's why I built my own computers and that's why I tend to mention gaming performance when comparing most parts. That's where the majority of nerds are looking.

But showing off something other than budget RAM would be nice. Benchmarks or no. I like to know I have great parts overall and not just a fast CPU or a fast video card

Even as "just a gamer" I can't say I'm not a bit of a performance junkie. There's nothing like a $200-300 CPU and blowing away a $900 one. That, in fact, is why people started overclocking. It's the bang-for-buck that draws everybody in initially.

If I had the (estimated) $3700 for a QX6700, 4GB of Mushkin Redline, $400 680i benching board, and the two 8800 Ultras with a PC P&C 1KW PSU, I would have never joined this site to begin with. I wouldn't have asked for help on my first build, and I never would have wanted to overclock. I would have bought an Alienware and been done with it.

But, with my part time job, I can handle the occasional $200-500 for a system upgrade

So while I can see the importance of performance vs budget parts. I urge you not to overlook the need for budget parts. That's where the majority of the overclocking market lies. Because barely anybody has the several thousand for the very best-of-the-best.

 

I have separate question/topic.

I'm planning to make a very big batch of upgrades by the end of this month.

I'm looking for some DDR2 800 CL4. 5 is crap and 3 is overkill for my purposes.

I'm looking at a very tempting Mushkin Kit right now.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146108

Gonna quote myself now:

Exaggeration. But not far from the truth. My standards have been set higher because of this board.

I'm not going to forget my budget roots but it makes me kinda itchy to have high-end parts on even a very good mid-range board. I built with the intent to upgrade to bigger and better parts. And for the sake of my own pure personal enjoyment I'm gonna upgrade! lol

And I'll never forget it. The DS3 is good for a mid-range build and I'll continue to recommend it for both its ease of use and excellent quality.

But I'm looking for a higher-end motherboard. The DS3 has been very good to me in its short time of service. Had the original for about four months I think. I've had the v1.3 for about a month now. But I'm wanting a better solution for higher comfortable clocks.

Not a performance board but maybe a lower high-end board.

Looking at this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188019

And a new case. The 8800GTX BARELY fits in my Centurion 5. New higher end parts means new, higher end case

Was checking out the Thermaltake Armor Series:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133154

I know I jump to different parts a lot but the old ones go to good homes. I support the budget market by having started with solely budget parts and working my way up.

On another, more random note. I was looking at reviews for the Arctic Freezer 7 Pro on newegg and lo and behold:

Dunno, thought it was kinda cool. *randomly high-fives theonejrs*


Any suggestions? Feel free to give advice.

 

Estuansis,

I agree completely. It's not just your standards but as you start playing with the settings and things work the way they're supposed to they gradually become your expectations as well. When you set a goal based on what you see everyone else doing, reach it easily and then exceed it, it speaks volumes for the product(s) involved and just how well they work together. When the biggest single complaint about this MB among the non Idiot factor owners is "No Firewire", I look at is as a compliment and testement to the overall quality! I very much like the feature where it's almost impossible to get BSODs after the post. The first time the case speaker started beeping at me like a machine gun, I panicked a bit until I realized what was going on. It's very nice to know that no matter how stupid an adjustment you make, the MB won't allow a bad mistake to bite you on the butt, or more correctly the wallet!

BUSTED! ROFL!! That's alright, I'm also in the DS3 v1.33 section too! I usually don't write reviews but when you come to the rare time where a product exceeds your expectations, you should pass that information on. The only other review I ever wrote was on my Sceptre Widescreen. 1 year later it's still going strong and I can say that I haven't been disappointed with anything about it and the picture quality remains magnificent!

I've been thinking about doing just that when mine sells. In my case it will be a move up to the v3.33 DS3. Firewire, heavier power regulation, more advanced sound and better raid configurations are the main reasons.

I think your choices are spot on. Both are reported to be excellent quality. Very nice looking case as well! I'm going to keep my eye on this MB. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128046 I have to say with all honesty that it it the most beautifully crafted motherboard I've ever seen at any price. Look at the pics from Newegg! It's like a work of art. I would label it a Mid-High End MB. The Heat Sinks on the back of the MB are works of art. Notice the "Heft" of the VRMs! There attached to the two heatsinks back by the keyboard plugs. That's some serious "Heavy Duty"! I think GigaByte has decided to step up and be taken seriously! At $249 I can make it affordable. Do me a favor and check it out! I would very much like to see your thoughts on it as well!

Considering it has the Micron chips like mine, I would say you have made an excellent choice there as well. I'm partial to the G.Skill because of my experience with the F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK I'm using now, again another quality product that has met or exceeded my expectations! Guess I'll have to write another review! LOL!!

Looks to me like you are well on your way to a good thing that's even more upgradable than the DS3!

Take care my friend!

Clock On,
theone

 

you're upgrading from a ds3? I was considering upgrading TO one! can I have yours? lol
RAM prices seem to have plummeted without my notice, and although I'm not quite ready to take the plunge, things like this are now attracting my attention
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220227
There's also Corsair Dominator stuff with the same specs about

 

estuansis

or had i the time if you had come to me back then, i could have built you that sort of HIGH-END setup for $3k flat! i've built systems that SURPASS Alienware rigs that cost $6,000+ for about 1/2 the price with exceptional cooling on AIR. my own dual core as well as my quad-core rigs all ran me LESS than $3,000 from start till finish and i guarantee my systems would put Alienware in it's place.

anyways, that's neither the point nor the discussion, i agree with your statement and understand where you are coming from...you are COMPLETELY accurate in that MOST people don't have thousands of dollars to dump into a computer, but my point was just to draw the line and get MY point across of distinctly differentiating what constitutes "good quality mid-range" and "enthusiast level high end"

as to your following post asking for suggestions, in terms of the ram, there are VERY few kits under $150 that can handle aggressive timings like the Mushkin kit can. i would personally and HIGHLY recommend that exact set for one of THE BEST perfomance memory kits available today in that price bracket. actually, the timings of 4-4-3-10 were not even possible on my Corsair XMS2 C4 kits, no matter how hard i tried, it would NOT budge below that of the rated specs of 4-4-4-12.

i feel YOUR decision for the RAM should be based on what YOU would rather have...ie. u want aggressive timings @800mhz? OR do you prefer higher bandwidth at the sacrifice of CAS latency? since i don't play NEARLY as many games as you do, i wouldn't know which would be better suited for the "gamer"...perhaps you can enlighten ME on that aspect of memory usage, i'm curious to know from a true "gamer" himself... as for everyday usage for encoding/multi-tasking/burning/etc. (what i use MY systems for), i prefer CAS3 timings @800mhz over that of CAS5 @1200mhz+; i have various kits that can accomplish both feats, but i set them for 24/7 use @ CAS3 3-4-3-9 across the board. this has proven, at least for ME, to be quicker and speedier performance-wise compared to ultra high bandwidth @1200mhz or higher @CAS5 timings. also, the compatibility factor needs to be addressed as MANY boards in the market today simply WON'T run memory much higher over 1100mhz *key word* RELIABLY/100% STABLE.

*for future reference, i MIGHT be parting with my Corsair Dominator TWIN2X2048-6400C3DF kit before Christmas, should you feel the urge to UPGRADE once again in the memory dept., and your initial feeling of "overkill" gets the best of you and you reconsider your memory needs, you know one of those $400+ kits i was talking about ; if interested, i would be willing to give you a good price on FULLY TESTED kits that carry lifetime Corsair warranty in the future (just something to consider on the back burner)*

i'm partial to eVGA mobos myself, so i like your choice of a performance board there and i'm more than familiar w/ the BIOS and the various revisions so should you need help, i can help you fine tune it

cases are very personal, those Thermaltake Armors have PLENTY of room for current AND future expansion, the cooling is excellent as well internally...if you like the appearance of it, sounds like a good choice to me...you may want to consider some of the larger Gigabyte brand cases, they've served me quite well to comfortably fit not only 1 8800gtx, but two with room to spare. the cooling quality is also top notch in the Gigabyte cases. the CoolerMaster Stacker 800 series might be "overkill" in your eyes, but i have yet to find a roomier case factory stock (ie. not a custom modded/built case) in the market today, albeit the high price tag of approx. $100 more than the THermaltake Armor.

i might have been a bit harsh on you in my last post, for that i apologize, but it's IMPORTANT to clearly define components and put them in their proper place/category in the tech. market. misleading info often leads to resentment AFTER the fact when someone goes out and buys something based on a "recommendation" only to be disappointed and angered by what the product actually CAN or CAN NOT do...naturally, it's human nature to come back and flame the person to no end because of the "mistake" they made in leading them down the wrong path. i don't want to see anyone "lashing out" at you, even if it is "just the internet," a lot of kids take it far more personal than you could imagine, i've been in that boat before and it's not pretty LOL

my response to the kid you ask? "Take up reading. being stupid is not a hobby." he went ballistic shortly after that, funny at the time, but i do feel somewhat "bad" for him....cant' win em' all~

docTY

 

Brings me back to a saying I heard "Arguing on the internet? Even if you win you're still retarded" perhaps a little harsh, but let's face it, forums are home to plenty of petty arguments. I remember recently spotting 'numpty-head' in a news article comment section, and I lol'ed.

 

sammorris,

I'm sorry but I can't quite understand the price for 5-5-5-15 memory. Am I missing something? Here's mine.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231087
You could buy 2 of these kits (request matched) for less money and they have the good Micron Chips! Mine will even run at 910MHz and run at 4-4-4-12 settings and run fine as long as there's nothing too memory intensive. Then it fails. Setting the cas to 5 solves that. I think a 6747 memory bandwidth speaks for itself for DDR26400/800 @910GHz! The videos right up there where it belongs thanks mainly to the increase in memory speed. I'd love another pair. The nice thing is if I do get another pair, I just give them the numbers off of these and I get a matched set, 1GBx4. I gotta love it! Especially in that nice new P35 chipset GigaByte MB! Oh Yeah!!!

Clock On,
theone

 

@theone

the price discrepency is due to the fact it's 2x 2gb kit : Patriot eXtreme Performance 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

since they are relatively new to the market (the 2gb sticks), they are priced accordingly

 

Ahh, so many interesting questions to answer!

@theonejrs

Agreed!

I can see the obvious quality of construction. But I've never even HEARD of the chipset! How does it perform? If it's solid we have a great board to dream about

I haven't heard of the DS3 v3.33. Is it yet to come out? Or are you pulling cookies out of your whiskey bottle?

@sammorris

First off, no. lol This motherboard is being bought by my A+ teacher cause I promised it to him cheap($80). Besides, I'm not paying shipping to the UK

Second. Aha! the shoe be on the other foot now! Patriot gets recognized. I was actually gonna link to that RAM in my first post but there you found it without my help

@docTY

So I take it I found a winner? lol

I'm glad you approve

Well, in gaming you aren't using your memory to process numbers. You are loading things like textures, AI and level data... big stuff.

Bandwidth is going to be noticeable in large games like Oblivion. Loading a large area is going to take less time with more bandwidth. You'll notice more hitching with the less bandwidth you have.
Even though the processing of the data through the memory is a bit slower, more can be done in the same time. Whereas vice versa for conversions and PI calculations where throughput performance is more important than actual bandwidth.

On performance tests higher speed memory with loose timings will show more bandwidth versus lower speed memory with tweaked timings. But the higher speed memory will tend to show lower actual performance.

In gaming memory usage becomes more of an actual physical issue and less of a speed issue.

That is why higher speed memory(900/1066MHz) is sold almost exclusively as gaming memory and the slower speed(667/800) is being sold as performance memory. Lower latencies are easier to hold at slower speeds. Only the most expensive memory kits will hit higher speeds with good timings.

I feel though, that at 2GB at 800MHz or higher you can tighten up timings a little without noticing more than a slight performance hit.

In short, more bandwidth is better for gamers.

But I've had some disagree with me.

lol I don't think I'll need it but thanks for the offer. That's some wicked memory. And honestly, the overkill with that would implode my skull

I AM going to take the Armor Series. I've wanted one since I joined a year and a half ago and saw that brobear(extinct) had one. Very cool cases.

Not overkill at all. I've look into that case seriously many times and the only overkill part about it is the price

I've been there more than a few times. Once recently with a friend who yelled at me because he DIDN'T want to follow my advice. He broke(I MEAN ABSOLUTELY MELTED AND DESTROYED) his computer!

 

docTY,

If you're going to buy 1 kits and your MB can handle 8GB! I'll take the 4x1GB G.Skill I want to have first.

Consider this! You can't afford 2 kits right now, well most people anyway, so you buy a kit. 6 months down the road when you decide to add another 4GBs, you find that cas4 is now out and cheaper than you paid for the cas5s. If you add it to the cas5s, you still only get cas5. Pull the cas5s and sell them and you won't get anywheres near what you paid for them. I'd use the cheaper and faster memory for now and save my money for the 2x1GB after the cas4 comes out. It would just cost less without loosing a thing, and you still have some fast memory for use in other projects. Cas3 is way in the future in terms of $$ and the cost. When it does come out very few will be able to afford it.

Just my views, thinkings and whys, but I think it's a win, win kind of thing to go with moderately priced good memory that performs well for now. You lose nothing and you wind up spending less money!

Clock On,
theone

 

Estuansis,

CompUSA and others have them in stock!

http://www.compusa.com/products/pro...342084&Pn=Socket_775_Intel_ATX_Motherboard#ts

The 3.33 as shown says S3, but the picture and specs are that are shown are of the GA-965P-DS3 v3.33. I know, I checked with GigaByte!

Also at Newegg for $119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128012
This is v3.33. You just have to hunt a bit and click on the Manufacturer's page to confirm it!

No "whiskey bottle" for me, I like my Stoli, Thank You! LOL!!

BTW, this memory is available now!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146690

Use the G.Skills and save for this. Price will come down in time and you'll have excellent quality memory to use elsewhere

Clock On,
theone

 

Cool!

Looks like a winner!

Updates on both my OC's

theone we are very close methinks

E6600

Stock Clock – 2399.4MHz
Stock Bus – 266.6MHz
Stock Mem Speed – 2 x 266.6 = DDR2 533
Stock Multiplier – 9x
Stock Quad Pumped Bus – 1066MHz

Overclock – 3204MHz
OC Bus – 356MHz
OC Mem Speed – 2.5 x 356 = DDR2 890
OC Multiplier – 9x
OC Quad Pumped Bus – 1424MHz

X2 4400+

Stock Clock - 2198.9MHz
Stock Bus - 199.9MHz
Stock Mem Speed - 299.85MHz
Stock Multiplier - 11x
Stock HTT Multiplier - 5
Stock HTT Bus - 1999MHz
FSB/MEM - 2:3

Overclock – 2600MHz
OC Bus - 260MHz
OC Mem Speed - 390MHz
OC Multiplier - 10x
OC HTT Multiplier - 4
OC HTT Bus - 2080MHz
FSB/MEM – 2:3


While the DS3 overclocks very nicely I don't like the set multis for the RAM. One of the main reasons I wanna change out. It can be a blessing at the sweet spot or a curse(like I have) at the not-so-sweet spot. This RAM won't go higher. That's why I prefer regular multis and FSB/RAM ratios vs the DS3 multi. I can find the sweet spot on my RAM so I don't have to push it for nice speeds.

My approach to conventional overclocking is simple. Adjust the ratios until it closest matches my RAM's rated speed(usually spot on) then raise the FSB from there and adjust ratios to accommodate comfortable RAM speeds.

@theone,

It would be nice if you would also list your speeds as I have

 

Estuansis,

No Problem, here you go

E4300

Stock Clock – 1801GHz
Stock Bus – 200MHz
Stock Mem Speed – 2 x 400 = DDR2 800
Stock Multiplier – 9x
Stock Quad Pumped Bus – 800MHz

Overclock

OC Clock - 3.276 GHz
OC Bus - 364 MHz
OC Memory Speed - 2.50 x 364 = 910
OC Multiplier - 9x
OC Quad Pumped Bus - 1456 GHz

Clock On,
theone

 

Aha! Thank you!

I wondered at the stock bus of 200MHz at first when I remembered the 800MHz Quad Pumped(brainfart lol.)

I see that we are very close. But since you have the better memory and the lower starting bus you were able to push the RAM speed higher. I can see for sure now that the E4300 is really the better OC'er.

But when I OC with regular multipliers and ratios on my upcoming 680i board with the Mushkin I might have the better OC.

I like that the DS3 has a clean and very stable OC for both of us but we both had to choose between having our RAM at a 2x ratio that is very slow or a dangerously high 3x. My RAM wouldn't handle the 1068 of the 3x multiplier. That makes it hard to optimize without high quality components.

I would much rather have my RAM at a closer ratio to be closer to DDR2 800.

That is the inherent curse of the DS3 series. if you don't have matched RAM you can't have it run its rated speed at stock. That killed me until I OC'd when it became a non-issue.

So the DS3 becomes a board only for experienced users or first-time OC'ers where it really shines.

 

Estuansis,

Did you try the 2.50. They are not in numeric order and it's down the list so you may well have missed it. I did first time! The 2.50 should solve your problem and have you running around 900MHz on the memory.

Clock On,
theone

 

I be on 2.5 right now. Check my OC. I just meant that it doesn't give you happy medium to work with. If I could do about 2.2 or 2.3 that would be a bit safer for my RAM.

Anyhoo, a bit OT but, what kind of payment plans does newegg offer? I've always just paid the straight price. But does the preferred account offer monthly payments? My friend wants to know because he wants to get some parts but doesn't have the cash right now.