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Kraftwerk's latest copy protected album can't be ripped - Any suggestions?

Discussion in 'Audio' started by eetupoika, Aug 26, 2003.

  1. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    hey all,

    just bought the new kraftwerk "tour de france soundtracks". i wanted to convert the tracks to mp3 for my mp3-player. i only managed to rip 8 tracks out of ten, the two first tracks weren't ripped properly.

    actually, the first track was only silence, while the second track had silence for the firs 20 seconds.

    what gives?

    i used Easy CD-DA extractor 6, which was able to rip only the 8 last tracks and gave me error messages on the first two.

    then i tried CDex 1.5, which was able to rip the whole cd, but with the above mentioned silent track and the 20 seconds of silence on the other track.

    this is the first cd i can't rip properly.

    any suggestions on any other app i could try?

    thanks in advance!!

     
  2. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi. This CD is Cactus Data Shield 200 protected. A forum search for "Cactus Data Shield" will give you helpful results.

    In short: Try Exact Audio Copy (EAC) with "Detect TOC manually" and extract in "Secure Mode", C2 off at lowest possible extraction speed (will help to get rid of the silence).

    CDS200 messes with audio CD error protection by introducing C2 errors on purpose. Especially with the Kraftwerk CD which contains a lot of pure sounds without transients the results depend on the drive's error correction capabilites. With most drives (if they're able to circumvent the protection at all) you'll hear rhythmic clicks sometimes, if not - what drive? I want to buy it too ;).
    For click removal there are several possibilities, e.g. EAC's wave editor.
     
  3. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    dang... eac performed even worse by not being able to properly extract the first track and the two last. got an error message complaining about sync problems. any idea what it means?

    also, i could not find the preference to choose "extract in secure more", could you advice.

    thanks!
     
  4. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    Synch error: It's *possible* that there's skipping. Use "preview tracks" to play back the suspicious positions to decide if the rips are alright.

    How to Set up EAC properly for ripping C2-error copyprotected CDs:

    1. Choose drive you want to rip with from dropdown menu
    2. EAC -> Drive options -> Extraction Method: select "Secure mode with following drive features (recommended)".
    3. Insert an audio CD into the drive and hit EAC -> Drive options -> Extraction Method -> Detect Read features. After detection press "Apply"
    4. No matter what has been detected [bold]un[/bold]check "Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information"
    5. EAC -> Drive options -> Offset/Speed: Choose the [bold]lowest speed possible[/bold] (e.g. 4x) from "Speed selection".
    6. If you insert the copy protected CD and not all tracks are displayed properly (length, type: audio, song title if you have access to database) try Action -> Toc Alterations: Detect TOC manually (or one of the other 2 options). If you still can't see the audio tracks you could try inserting the CD first and then starting EAC or vice versa. If this doesn't help all you can do is try with another drive.
    7. Now rip, ideally to .wav first to be able to perform glitch removal or similar after extraction if needed.
    8. You might want to listen closely to all tracks, maybe there are still gaps of silence or clicks; the latter can be removed using something like deglitch.
     
  5. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    gracias tigre!

    tried with your advice. this time i indeed managed to rip the cd with no error messages.

    but: although i have the wav files on my HD now, and they are 40-60 megs big each, they have no sound it them. they are just silent tracks when i playbgack them or burn a cd-rw of it or encode them into mp3's.

    i wonder what happened there.

    nevertheless, will try again later in the evening and let you know.

    thanks again!
     
  6. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    It's known that the result depends on the drive used and somewhat on ripping speed (giving the drive's firmware more time to handle errors ...). But so far I've never heard of something similar: Copy (almost) working with some software like Easy CD-DA extractor, Audiograbber etc. but silence with EAC. Maybe your drive is becoming "bored" at low speed and performs too much interpolation (= silence). You could try burst mode and/or setting speed at max. (and uncheck "Allow speed reduction during extraction". What drive do you use for ripping BTW?
    Another thing that could help is using some CD speed control tool like Nero Drive Speed or CDBremse (similar) with Easy CD-DA extractor to find out if it's the extraction software('s mode used) or the reading speed itself.

    http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=11504&st=
    Here's a recent thread about the same CD and its copy protection.

    Good luck._X_X_X_X_X_[small]AFTERDAWN FORUM RULES: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487[/small]
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2003
  7. ccs-ed

    ccs-ed Member

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    No volume from an EAC rip? Check normalization - if it is set "on", then it should normalize to about 90-98%. Or it may be a hardware problem - check a known, easily ripped CD - if that works then . . .

    There's always "the rip of last resort".

    Connect an external CD/DVD player to your sound card. It's slow - but fool proof.
     
  8. BillGates

    BillGates Guest

    Hi. Just a thought but I have had success in putting copy protected cds in my dvd player and then burning them as a straight copy. Worked fine with Sony and WEA discs, also with DTS sound discs. Give it a try and let me know how you get on.
     
  9. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    just my 0.02 worth.
    Firstly, as already posted, why not hook up a CD player to your machine and simply resample the disc? If you use 32bit FP at 44.1 KHz, you will never be able to tell the difference, and there won't be any quantization errors creep in when converting to MP3.
    Secondly, I abhor this practise. These CD's are basically software discs, not proper Red Book CD-Audio discs. I always take them straight back to the shop & demand a refund. The other culprits are the discs that won't play on PC either. These too are NOT CD-Audio, and should not be sold as such.
    If we all stand up for our rights, the practice might even stop - although I doubt it.
    It is your legal right to ba able to make a working backup of any software you own, and any CD-Audio disc. It's called "protecting your investment".
    Sorry, but it would seem your best option is to resample, drop down to 16/44.1, burn a new CD-Audio version, and take the other one back to the shop.
    Let the flames begin.......
     
  10. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    hi there again,
    thanks for all your advice.

    i'm still strugling with the KW album. by following your advice eac actually fails to rip any wavs at all. it crashed at the second track and says that there is a sync error.

    what could cause the sync error?

    here are some also some notes to your walkthru:

    1. Choose drive you want to rip with from dropdown menu
    -- done. i see a list of tracks.

    2. EAC -> Drive options -> Extraction Method: select "Secure mode with following drive features (recommended)".
    -- done

    3. Insert an audio CD into the drive and hit EAC -> Drive options -> Extraction Method -> Detect Read features. After detection press "Apply"
    -- i would not even detect the KW album as an audio cd. so the testing won't even start. it just says that there is no audio album on the drive. even though there is a tracklist in the main view.

    -- in other words i'm still stuck. can this cd really have such a strong copy protection?

    thanks in advance for any further advice!

    eetupoika
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2003
  11. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    For detecting the features (only once needed) just use a normal audio CD.


    If it crashed it can't say "there is a synch error" anymore. Does it stop extraction rather than crashing? Ah ... wait a minute: EAC -> EAC options -> Extraction -> "Skip track extraction on read or synch errors" should be unchecked. Another thing that could help is selecting Burst mode in step 2 instead of secure mode.
     
  12. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    sorry, i did not mean "crash", it just stopped doing anything slowing down my whole system. but the log stated the error message.

    will try once again with your latest advice.

    if it won't work, i'll just have to accept that i can't rip the first two tracks. then i'll return the cd to the shop :)

     
  13. ccs-ed

    ccs-ed Member

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    If you really want those first two tracks - try the "rip of last resort" I mentioned earlier.

    I bet it took tigre twice as long to compose a reasoned response than it will take you to hook up the external player and rip the two tracks.

    Regarding taking the CD back - PLEASE do. If my CDs won't play on any & all of my players - they're gone. It's the time-honored (and only) way we can influence the industry, with our $$.
     
  14. eetupoika

    eetupoika Member

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    yup.
    this is ridiculous. i even tried to rip te damned cd with alcohol 120, but that app could not rip any track.

    i will do the "last resort" now. apparently there are no other ways. those two tracks can't be found anywhere in the net either, so i guess i'm not the only one with the same prob.

    and yes, i'lldefinitely send the cd back. luckily i bought it from amazon.de, who are always have good customer support.

    e-p
     
  15. ccs-ed

    ccs-ed Member

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    You're a good person e-p, Thank you.

    For lurkers who haven't purchased an external player yet, consider the cheapest possible DVD player - for 3 VERY GOOD reasons.

    First - its cheap. You can afford to buy one, maybe once per year or two (it might be necessary).

    Second and most important, is that it's CHEAPLY built. I'll explain this one. All functionality in playing DVDs and audio CDs is built into one chip. To limit play to one region - add another chip. To administer industry copywrite formulations, add another chip or two or three.
    The more chips you add - the more expensive. So look for the one with the LEAST features, the cheapest.

    Third, when bored with audio, you can play with DVDs, a video capture card permitting.

    Personally I bought 2 cheapos almost two years ago thinking cheap was also low quality. I am pleased to report zero ploblems with either $88.00 unit. In this case cheap apparently indicates features not quality.
     
  16. tigre

    tigre Moderator Staff Member

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    Some thoughts on this:

    - As DVD players are designed to play back more than just audio CDs and DVDs, even the cheapest ones I know play mp3 (data) CDs and several types of video CDs, DVD players need to be more flexible in recognizing and handling different types of CDs. Because of this you'll get more likely problems with DVD players and copy protected disks (if not now, maybe the next generation) than with standalone CD-only players.

    What about this?
    - Buy a standalone CD player with digital out.
    - Buy a soundcard with digital in (clock should be triggered by external device connected)
    -> Get results comparable to EAC rips; As long as copyprotections are designed for being compatible to audio CD, you'll be able to rip.
     
  17. powaking

    powaking Member

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    Here's a thought. I tried this with a regular Audio CD, not a protected one as I don't have one to test with.

    What I did is I used my Dreamcast with a broadband adapter and a tool on my PC to copy the different tracks on the disc of the dreamcast. I copied a few audio tracks in RAW format from the dreamcast to the PC (not the quickest but faster than real time playing), then used a tool to convert the RAW format to MP3 and that did the trick.

    Now I'm wondering if the dreamcast would even bother with the CDS200 protection or any protection for that matter.

    Has anyone else tried this? I'm eager to come across a protected CD to test this theory out.
     
  18. wilkes

    wilkes Regular member

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    http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/notices/2003/copyria.pdf http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2003/20032498.htm#26
    This is seriously bad news for all of us in the UK. Under this new law, rushed through parliament in 6 days, all forms of private restoration of vinyl to CD/DVD is now a criminal offence, as well as even owning any program or device designed to circumvent copy protection.
    This means your DAT machines, any CD copying software, and potentially even CD-R/W & DVD-R/W devices are included.
    I am now awaiting the outcome of a solicitors report on this, but it appears that we are in deep doodoo.
    One of the biggest problem areas is outlined http://ukcdr.org/issues/eucd/ukimpl/critique_uk_impl.html
    take very good notice of the section relating to Professional Music Studios.
    Please take the time to read this, as there can be no doubt at all that the BPI is going to come after us with all guns blazing. It would seem, without being too cynical, that the industry is trying to put us out of business to bolster it's own fall in studio bookings.
    Ain't it grand?

    ------------------
    www.opusproductions.com
     

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