sandt38, your right on the money also. [bold]Its NOT a gun control issue in Philadelphia ,its a criminal control problem. disarming good people isnt the answer[/bold] disarming good people isnt the answer because they the ones that will lose the bad guys will always find a way to get them. you have to look at the root cause why Philly is a bad city the guns didnt make it that way. its the break down of the family,poor morals etc.
Since the gun laws were tightened up, it would seem that more & more people are being killed by handguns. The only people who have them now are the criminals. The new regs appear to have have had little or no effect on gun crime, we seem to have gone backwards. The problem, I believe, is not the guns, but the attitude of the people who have them. Kids nowadays have no respect for others or other peoples' property. The rights of the criminals are being too greatly exploited. the general feeling here is that, if you get robbed, it is your own fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time! The whole thing has being completely twisted round. It makes me sick that we are unable to defend ourselves without the fear of being arrested ourselves. Earlier this week a 70yr old grandmother was arrested for assault after she poked a teenager in the chest. This was after she had been pushed to the floor by said teenager! The police seem to have little interest other than arresting the easiest person possible. This is all after the Government said that we need to stand up for ourselves. If we do, we get arrested! (The parents of these thugs do not care & are rarely brought to task). The law abiding person in the street has no chance, we simply cannot win. Either way, we are royally screwed...
@Chris...no, that has been why this thread Neph started has been so interesting; no one has been flaming at all. There is nothing wrong with disagreement in part or even totally. No one has been calling the other names or demeaning them because they disagree which is really cool; somewhere in this thread, Neph himself says that he's enjoyed this thread a great deal because of this and didn't want anyone ruining it by becoming a jerk. It would be foolish of me to try to deny the logic of what you're saying. In fact, everyone here is waiting to see what happens regarding a certain gun shop here that recently got busted; I don't know the specifics but philly has had over 250 handgun murders in its first one half year and they recently busted this shop because they were able to tie this one store to 60 of those murders. Everyone is wondering what is going to happen to those who ran the store (I think it will be a blood-hungry crowd) and from what I've read, everyone is expecting this one case to become a big national thing when it comes to trial and because its civilian, I don't think it will get snuffed out because of political embarrassment. (I say that because a few years ago, the FBI stormed the building I work in and arrested all sorts of people because the department of licensing was selling gun permits to people who didn't pass background checks ... but you never heard about it again!) @aabbccdd...you are also right which is what makes this issue as complex as it interesting. Philadelphia is way different from the other big cities in one big way: there is very little socioeconomic divergence in the city...it has disappeared over the last twenty years. Expansion into the environs of the city has been so huge that municipalities as far away as 100 miles from the city are trying to restrict the growth. Former rural areas are now suburban; suburban areas are getting more and more urban because of flight from the city. This started with the wealthy but more and more of the middle class has joined the flight. While everything around the city grows, the city's population shrinks in direct proportion. Twenty years ago, philly had just under four million residents, now it's just over two million. There are literally city blocks that are now deserted...mostly large areas of the old middle class neighborhoods. With the majority of the working class moving out, industry has moved out with it. With the exception of a few areas, the city is falling into slum after slum....both William Penn and the U.S. Founding Fathers buried here must be turning in their graves. Unlike New York, LA, Chicago and (hell, I forgot which city is #4 lol!) but Philly, with the exception of a few areas, is a city comprised of the very poor. While the other big cities are considerably bigger than us, none of them come close to Philly's dubious high statistic of having 25% of its residents collecting some flavor of welfare ...not necessarily all cash welfare assistance, but welfare of some sort whether its food stamps, medical help, homeless shelters and the like. There isn't even a close second. So you're right in that respect, aabbccdd. One needn't be a sociologist to know that extreme poverty goes hand and hand with crime and the violence associated therewith. A huge portion of the city's residents are seriously dysfunctional and when industry moved out, it has slowly compounded the problem as there are no jobs here; they're all out in the burbs to which the city's poor who do want to work can't get to. It's really a huge mess. Usually, when people come to Philly, they see center city because that's where all the historical stuff is as well as all the business, skyscrapers and fancier apartment buildings and condos so it looks rather impressive but what they see, or what people see in the new or movies is a tiny part of the city. There are huge areas of the city that literally look like a city in a WWII movies after sever bombing. Its a real pity. Philly used to be the wealthiest city in the US and when you go into some of the citys worst slums, you can tell just by one look at the collapsing architecture that it must have been really beautiful at one time. It will really take a genius to get Philly out of this mess back into even an "average" citizenry.
Poverty & street crime are inextricably linked in the UK. Poor areas suffer from lots of robbery & street crime. High wealth areas suffer from burglary (usually from people outside the town/village).
One thing about gun laws, they can make more laws, and ban more guns but until enforcement of the laws that are on the books from the 1920's is a waste of time. As a one time BTAF license holder and seller of guns and ammo,the experience of the gray areas really gives a lot of loop holes.One instance that made my last dealings as a gun dealer was the day I refused a sale of a shotgun. The yellow sheet was filled out properly but this person to me was unstable and I refused the sale within a weeks time I had a Visit from ATF to go over my books and question why I refused the sale to this individual. I stated about my feelings and if I had sold it to him and he went out and killed some one the sale wasn't worth it.At that time I was told because of the gray area of the law I couldn't refuse a sale on that basis. and the next best one as a licensed dealer I couldn't sell a pistol to a 18 year old with permit and paperwork in order. But this same 18 year old could buy a pistol from any one off the street,all nice and legal.I hope Gerry1 that if that gun shop you mentioned is indeed back dooring guns that they prosecute and give them prison time the same as a murderer. Chris
When laws are created, it is inevitable that it is only the good people that abide by them. Criminals tend not to abide by the law, hence the name, criminal! You can deduce then, the only people affected by these laws are the good people!
I got armor piercing bullets in my Taurus '92 It's fully locked and loaded and it's waiting just for you A nickel plated magnum with the custom fitted grips A fully auto AK with the big banana clip A .45 baretta with an extra magazine A sawed of riot shotgun and the mighty M-16 A back up Colt .380 that I keep inside my sock All my guns are so much fun I love them like my ____
No..sir. Those are lyrics from X-cops song "third leg". I overlooked this little jewel for some time, It was only due to Neph that I aquired the CD. I thank him for that and that is also how it pertains to the thread. (Chorus) My Third leg is my savior, My Third leg's like a son, My Third leg is my master, My Third leg is my gun.
@Jizmak...lol...reminds me of the marine corps. If one used the word "gun" instead of "weapon" they'd make you stand for a couple of hours grabbing your crotch or your weapon and yell over and over again ...this is my weapon, this is my gun. THis one's for killing and this one's for fun"
Hi gerry1, y'okay down there? Sounds like the Wild West or Chicago in the 1920's, it's Philly in the 21st... could be some kind of turning point. That's too bad about Philly though, and it's a bit of a secret as we never hear a peep about Philly (unless Flyers, LoL). Toronto is huge, ~4 million in the GTA which is ~800 square miles, but Downtown is where it's at! We studiously headed off the downtown decay that afflicted our close neighbor Detroit in the 1960's and 70's. The huge ancient mansions on Church and Jarvis streets are now Lawyer Firms and Commercial establishments (5-star restaurants etc.) and the farther downtown you go, the costlier it gets. But what's the story - a lot of people out of work down there in Philly? Handguns not good in that environment obviously, but what're you gonna do? It's a tough one... Regards
Gerry, as one who lives right next door to Philly, I can tell you that your city's problems are of your own doing, not the big, bad NRA and the usual litany of excuses. You guys elected a mayor who does not give a shit. You guys elected a mayor who wants to blame guns not gangs. You elected a mayor who is more interested in kicking out the Boy Scouts - one of the few potential positive influences inner-city children have - rather than cracking down on drug dealers. Part of the problem - and it's not solely a Philly problem, but endemic in quite a few large cities - is that you don't give a shit who you put in office, as longm as he has a (D) after his name. I'm sure if Osama bin Laden ran as a Democrat, he could win in Philly. As far as your whining about the NRA's money, you seem to forget that the gun control lobby is much better-funded and relies on people who can't thing for themselves to believe in it. If the average American (or foreigner) knew the reality about gun control, most would be against it. That Britain and Australia, who enacted some of the world's most strict gun control laws in 1996 and 1997, respectively, now suffer the industrialised world's highest crime rates. (1) Or how Or that some members of the media have openly advocated and practiced the suppression of pro-gun arguments and research, while giving hundreds of millions of dollars of free press to pro-gun control extremists. (2) (1)International Crime Victimization Survey, 2000 Sweep, See also The Telegraph, "A Quarter of English are Victims of Crime", http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/02/23/ncrim123.xml (2)See Thomas Winship (former editor of the Boston Globe) Editor-and-Publisher Magazine, April 24, 1993.) A fair-use except can be found courtest of Reason Magazine: http://reason.com/0006/fe.ks.loaded.shtml
Hey Dunker, while a I generally agree with what you're saying the delivery was bit rough. I enjoyed the article from your second link because it illustrates some thing I've felt for a long time. One statement in the articlecovered how the progun groups are often referred to in derrogatory terms, I noticed you referred to Gerry as whining about the NRA and that was a bit unfair. Gerry's a great guy who happens to have a different opinion of the gun issue. I'm not trying to deny you your opinion and sure hope you stay with us here but we've had a great discussion on the issue without getting mean spirited and I'd sure like to keep it that way A great point that been made is the correlation between poverty and crime. When folks have it hard and have little hope of improving things it sure seems easy to victimize not only your neighbors but also those that have it better than you and, as Gerry noted about the shootings in his city, don't give a shit about you or your neighbors getting shot - basically you and your neighbors don't count. I see alot of folks claim the NRA is a special interest group that represents a minority of gun owners but the fact remains that the NRA is very well funded by that "minority", most of which are blue collar folks making a middle class living which means there are an awful lot of folks donating reach the level of funds the NRA has at its disposal. One thing's for sure - if that gun shop owner knew what those guns were being used for he needs to rot in a jail cell for life. Some thing similar happened here last year where the officials did an audit of the guns used in crimes and they stores they came from. The was a shop here that had an inordinate amount of guns traced to them and the funny thing is I'd been in there several times and never cared for it - the clientele were generally really creepy doomsday separatist types that I didn't feel comfortable around and the owners were real shysters. The shop has since closed for reason I don't know but it makes me wonder.
i do not think this was posted here,if it was..sorry National Rifle Association From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The National Rifle Association, or NRA, is a 501(c)(4) group for the promotion of marksmanship, firearm safety, and the protection of hunting and personal protection firearm rights in the United States, established in New York in 1871 as the American Rifle Association. It sponsors firearm safety training courses, as well as marksmanship events featuring shooting skills and sports. The NRA is sometimes said to be the most powerful single non-profit organization in the United States. It is the oldest and largest civil rights organization in the U.S., considering gun ownership a civil right protected by the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights. GO HERE TO READ IT ALL,ITS A GOOD READ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association
Good link ireland That article got me to thinking about the bad press the NRA generally gets. Alot of folks see the NRA as wanting to make sure every criminal has the right to get a gun but nothing can be further from the truth. NRA has spent literally millions lobbying, promoting and eventually getting passed many common sense gun laws bring tougher punishment on those who use guns in the comminsion of crimes. Instead of hoping that banning guns from everyone might work the NRA is helping to target those that actually misuse them. NRA consist of millions of everyday folks that don't feel they should be punished for the acts of a cruel few. I abide by the laws but the minute I'm told I can't have a handgun is the minute I willfully become a lawbreaker. I'll be damned if I'm made to be defenseless against the criminals that apparently ranked lower on the list of problems than me and my legally purchased and used handgun. Another point I'd like to make that doesn't get hardly any coverage is the NRA's Eddie Eagle program for teaching kids about the dangers of guns and what to do if they find one. I hear so many of the anti gun groups screaming that we need to ban guns to save the children yet I don't recall any of the anti gun groups taking the time, effort and money to do something comprehensive to actively protect children. *** The NRA allotted extra money this year to supply gun safety program materials at no cost to any police department and makes it available at a nominal cost to any group or organization that wants to start the program in their community. http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/ ***The Brady Foundation, one of the most vehement antigun groups, gives you flashing body counts on their site and a refridgerator magnet, http://www.kidsandguns.org/entryhall/safetytips.asp Pretty tacky if you ask me.
What's vastly worse is that many prominent gun control advocates and organizations have come out against education programs such as these, leading to more tragedy. NY Governor George Pataki and former Maryland Governor Parris Glendening come to mind. So much for gun control being about safety.
Very good Neph, Gerry certainly didn't need to be blamed for what's going on in Philly. Hell it's happening in every large city. Marines don't whine!!
Neph's right and it's fair enough to criticize me for being too brusque, and I apologize for that. However, I do blame the voters in cities like Philly in large part for the problems there, because the voters and residents often aren't willing to change things. That's a major part of the resaon why there's so much crime in large cities. That's a major part of the reason for the decline of cities like Philly. And that's a major part of the reason why residents and businesses re lining up to get out of some cities. I'm not any happier about it than Gerry, espcially in the case of Philly, which I love intensely, but it's the reality of what's going on there. But ok, sorry, Gerry, and I will try to tone it down.
@Dunker....I just stopped posting to this thread after your last senseless post a couple of weeks ago; it was truly enjoyable until you came along. Now I find that its lost it's appeal for exactly the same reason after someone revived it a few days ago. Where do you live? You spoke in your last post of mayor Street's large personal security entourage ... Street has only one security guard (albeit he's the size of an entourage)...I walk by the mayor often on his way to work in the mornning. (While I'm not supporter of the mayor, I get A kick out of the fact that he walks to work like the rest of us). Like any big city, there has been crime here all along but it went through the roof long ago after industry left the city long before John Street or Ed Rendell were mayor; the escalation began in the mid 1980s. You speak of blaming guns instead of gangs .... Philly DOESN'T HAVE STREET GANGS!!! Unlike the other big cities, we managed at least to solve that problem twenty five years ago. I'm certainly not about to address fiction. Your comments about the UK and Australia don't warrant much comment either: you'd be hard pressed to come up with a city in the UK or Australia that nears 1,000 murders a year like a couple of our biggest cities ... I even rather doubt that there are that many a year in the entire coutries of Australia or the UK but I suppose I could be wrong. @everyone....When reading what the others have been posting, it's interesting that it always comes down to the old chestnut that people kill, not guns, yet aside from being an exercise in the obvious, it doesn't address the problem and there is, indeed, a big problem with so many innocent people being shot dead for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. While there is a certain truth in blaming city handgun violence on bad people skills, that approach isn't an approach approach at all ... its sociological thinking but not a practical approach to the problem and some sort of solution is needed desperately. With the exception of one, this has been an insightful crowd, surly you've read how handgun crime (and violent crime in general) has been spreading outside the boundries of the big cities; the new crime statistics were all over the news a couple of weeks ago because they were rather alarming. With poverty on the rise in the burbs now and a lot of the middle class shrinking quickly, the statistics of rising violent crime rates outside the city show a direct correlation to the rising poverty and socioeconomic decline from which it issues. In short, this particular cancer, regardless of the cause, is spreading. Well, this thread has been fun. As I said before, there are good points on both sides of this which is what makes it interesting. Its also interesting how our opinions are formed by the circumstances in which we find ourselves ... before moving to Philly, I lived my life in very rural areas of new england and would have been on your side of this fence at the time. I'm glad Neph started this thread and its been both fun and enlightening. Pity some people don't know what was meant by "Neph's POLITE Gun Debate" as the thread is named. See you in the other threads and forums! ... Gerry
Dunker, I am not too sure why you feel the issue lies with the voters or the mayor. It is impossible to lay blame on any politician because the people of their constituency behave in a manner that represents a lack of respect for a weapon, or human life. This shortcoming falls on the parents, who in most cases involving violent crimes are not an important or worthwhile part of the criminal's life. Even when the parents are involved in the criminal's life, you usually hear the same thing... "I never let him/her around a gun... I never kept one or suffered one be kept." If parents were involved in their children's lives, and taught them to respect human life, and how to properly use, maintain, and weild a firearm we would see these sad statistics decreasing. It is not up to ANY politician to attempt to undo what has been done by the very people that raise these animals. Gerry, I hope for our sake you continue to join us in this conversation. Your counterpoints are very interesting, and well thought out... besides, I wish to respond to your last post. You seem to feel that by simply banning firearms the world will be a better/safer place to live in. But I suggest that the guns are still out there. They are with the criminals, and the gangs that weild them with utter lack of consideration for human life... and they will continue to be passed down in these criminal circles. The only thing you will be doing is simply removing them from the law abiding citizen, who uses them for legal protection, and/or sporting, and/or hunting, thereby making self-defense non-existant. Tell me something, if Philly suddenly changed their laws today to remove firearms from the streets and they had a collection (including payment for the return of the guns), how many law abiding citizens would return their guns? Now answer me this... how many gang bangers will be in that line? I'll tell you what, I would be leaving Philly in a heartbeat, because it would be a free-for-all on the law abiding citizen... Social programs may be the way to quell violence by firearm, but I think it really is more of an issue with parents... Maybe we should hold them as responsible for the violent crimes of their children who perpetrate the actual crime. Maybe we should let parents legally punish their kids. My gramma kicked my ass on a regular basis while my mother didn't attempt to. You know what? I didn't misbehave around gramma, but I had NO fear of my mother. I can think of dozens of other ideas to nip the problem in the bud, but removing firearms from the hands of people using them for self-defense is definately NOT one of them.
