That's a truly sad state of affairs pulsar. Come visit Arizona sometime - you may like it Are you referring to the purpose of the Second Amendment? I just want to be clear before I comment (I do that once in a while ).
1984 and Big Brother are here in the USA and growing. Each year more rights have been removed, if not for the Bill of Rights, free speech and gun ownership would have been curtailed to where only the bad guys have them!
Ahh-Ohh...Methinks I'm about to get it from both sides LOL!..what the hell, just don't be mean to me; I cry easily LOL! @garmoon...I'm not altogether sure how gun ownership fits into your analogy, but I agree with that for the most part...but I don't understand how gun ownership, free press & speech certainly, but how does gun ownership aid in the stopping of the technological degeneration of rights? @Neph...yes, that is what I was referring to though in more modern terms I suppose. Farmer militias was the european way since before recorded history...I belive a few rare poems of the spartans were the first historical reference to it but that is essentially what I meant. As a british colony, that ages old but very effective concept or force or even tradition, if you will, was the first thing to get trashed due to the enormity of its efficiency. "Army" is perhaps the wrong word but essentially what I meant; I suppose the concept of the "reserves" would have been more appropriate. I don't suppose there is much call for farmer militias these days... nor do I feel that present day groups that call themselves "militia",(and there are many of them here in PA,) are what they proclaim themselves to be. OK ...HERE IT COMES LOL!
We have had the age old Catholic vs Protestant feuds for many centuries, the last 50-60yrs we have a new generation of British who have different religions. Only recently have their religions come to the forefront of political & legislative changes to our society. In the UK changes to the law can take time, esp when the House of Lords blocks changes. So the only fundamental changes have taken place in the last 20yrs or so. It was/is mainly the heirarchy who had the wealth to have firearms & swords, as the peasants were paid a meagre amount, so as just to survive. There are similarities in todays society. Gun law is a funny one over here. I am not sure why the US (a "new" society) made the leap from not self arming, to self arming. In a new country, law & order takes time to be established & until then you looked after yourself. So as small communities took hold, they had the freedom to make such laws appropriate for self defense. This is something that the Brits did not have a problem with as such. Firearms did not come along until a LONG time since communities/towns & large cities were formed, they were not needed as much as in the US. The cost would have been prohibitive for common folk too. In the UK, left wing is more socialist, right wing is almost dictatorial/nanny state, just give a rough analogy. Extreme right wing was Naziism, left wing was communism. (Funnily enough Hitler & Stalin admired each other before Hitler invaded, much the same as Hitler enjoyed/admired the British way of life) The fundamentalists of any religion are a bad thing, they stifle debate & free choice. I suppose nearly every society has those. I would love to be able to go shooting with an M16, or marksmenship with a huge rifle, unfortunately it is not that simple.
and a matter of fact iam going to the gun range tomorrow to shoot some of those rifles along with my 1911 and 9mm. garmoon , i did hear about that in New Orleans but neer heard any follow up ,that was def. bullcrap
@garmoon...thanks for that; it was actually very interesting. I am woefully ignorant of foreign politics. I get a kick out of it though when I watch the BBC and see what I presume to be the parliament yelling at each other from opposite sides of the room with others yelling "Here Here"! I don't understand what is going on, but I do enjoy watching it LOL! Have you ever shot an M-16 garmoon? If not, you'd probably be as surprised as I was the fist time I shot one. It didn't at all sound and feel like the lethal piece of machinery that it is. The 45 was something of a different story however. I was a marine corps corpsman during the viet nam war days. As such, I was more the protected than the fighter and demands on my marksmanship were non existant, but I'm not unfamiliar with them.
@gerry1 I wasn't referring to your comments, I was echoing what Pulsar had written. The same is happening here in US. With the Moral Majority nipping at our heels. I'm sure that is to whom you referred. What I was alluding to was that the our freedoms and privacy that we have enjoyed for years are slowly eroding away. They want our guns, they want our free thinking, our free expressions; took away a man's right to a beer but yet he may fight and die for his country, now they are taking private property and giving it to investors to "improve" (translated raise taxes) our cities. You can't pick your nose in private anymore. There are cameras everywhere. Cell phones tell the government, if they want to know, every place you've been and with whom you have conversed. Special discount cards at stores keep track of what you purchase, much like cookies on PCs. We are almost there buddy at 1984 but just a little late. When the guns go, Government will have succeeded.
@pulsar and garmoon....my apologies; I confused one for the other. @pulsar...my apologies; thanks for taking the time to write that. It was very interesting. I didn't know that the protestant/catholic thing was still alive in the UK...perhaps because of the press involved in the Ireland mess.
garmoon, yeah i dont like the GPS system on the newer cell phones i know its for the 911 system but i dont trust it iam staying with my old "StarTAC" lol it doesnt have it
Hey Gerry, now that I'm clear I'll give my two cents. What it boils down to and what the Founding Fathers believed is that the Second Amendment is the one that guarantees the rest. The fact that millions of private citizens own firearms prevents the government from blatantly overstepping their bounds. Throughout history the first step towards enslaving a peoples is to disarm them and that's exactly what the Founding Fathers wanted to prevent. It may sound loopy to some but stop and think what the Bush administration might be doing right now if the common man had no recourse to his basic rights being stripped away. The Patriot Act is a travesty that allowed took away a huge amount of judicial oversight to what the government can do in the name of fighting terrorism. That's scary to me because checks and balances are vital to our system of government. I know what I've just said will have some folks thinking I'm a wacko but I sure don't like alot of what I see happening anymore. Many people believe we as a society have progressed beyond the need for the Second Amendment but I don't believe that for a second. Our Founding Fathers were some of the most brilliant, forward thinking men to ever walk this earth and everything they set forth in the Bill of Rights is as pertinent today as it was back then. The funny thing is if they were alive today and saw how dysfunctional the government has become they'd be calling for a revolution - they stated in their writings that when a government became too oppressive it was the peoples duty to keep it in check - and for that they would be labeled terrorist and traitors. Ironic isn't it? And now for the word militia. The use of the word 'militia' in the Second Amendment has been the subject of much controversy but more than few prominent Constitutional scholars and professors have stated that in the context of the times and according to the wealth of other writings from the Framers there's no doubt that the "well regulated militia" is every private citizen of this nation. I'll close with a simple question for anyone and everyone - why should I, a law abiding citizen, be rendered defenseless to criminals who will still be armed after my rights were stripped in theory to prevent the crime they commit?
The Second Amendment, as passed by the House and Senate and later ratified by the States, reads: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights which hangs in the National Archives had slightly different capitalization and punctuation inserted by William Lambert, the scribe who prepared it. This copy reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."' Both versions are commonly used by "official" Government publications. [edit] Origin of the Second Amendment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...nstitution#The_Colonial_Right_to_Possess_Arms
Nephilim, you ,i ,anyone shall never be rendered defenseless to criminals we cant and must not allow that to every happen, good reason the join the NRA folks iam renewing now!!!
Well, well, well. We do seem to have yawed from the original intent. However, still on-track, so to speak. Bravo to Neph & Ireland on your last posts. They were very well put. The US second amendment had at least two purposes. Foremost was that we not be subjugated to the total control by our government. Simply because we would have the means to oppose them. Second, was that we have , and are allowed to have, some responsibility for the protection of our lives and property. After all, "total reliance" on our "public servants" to ensure that we can pursue "Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness" is a utopian myth. Regardless of our religous beliefs, we are still mammals. A part of the animal world. We all still need the skills & tools necessary to survive in our current environment. Otherwise, we perish. Look back on human history. Look back at how we evolved. Those with the better tools reigned. Do not let the governing bodies relegate us to the status of the ELOI. TC
@Neph....you know, I'm rather glad you started this thread. While it isn't politics, its still a volitile subject to some yet its been quite objectively discussed. I certainly respect all that you had to say, and while I question some of it, it's certainly all very logical. I particularly agree with your assessment of the checks and balances which is really the hallmark or our system of government over any others'...that has distressed me more than I can say; it took a severe blow before bush was ever sworn in for the first term and has gone dramatically downhill since. Some of the founding fathers are buried two blocks from here and they must have turned in their graves a number of times! As a theology major (which has gotten me really far in life LOL!), I am rather proned to Ps and Qs and can find no flaw in your words; yet, at the risk of sounding overly ontological, the reality of having left the marine corps unscathed while coming close to pushing daisies on the streets of my own home town has the immeasurable power of throwing logic right out the window! Hence, my vasillation on the subject! This sure is interesting though, don't you think?
@gerry1 No problem. I sent you a PM about the M16 and 45s. Gotta go Wife's BD party later all. This is a good thread.
I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I think it's a wonderful thing when differing opinions can be discussed without resorting to anger or name calling as we see happen so often. I also wholeheartedly agree that the Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves. Your point about coming closer to death on the streets of your hometown than the Marines is a very sobering one!
Hi Neph, you pulled be out of the bushes with this topic. Being ex-military from the Viet-Nam days, I've fired just about every thing they had back then from the 45 hand gun to the big 8 inch self-propelled artillary I was in command of for a year. I have had a carry permit since I was discharged in 1971. I trained my wife with several hand guns and she also carries a SW 38 special and could shoot a persons knee caps out faster than me if needed. My daughter now 24 was taught everything possible about my guns starting around 12 and would also have a permit if she still lived here in Pennsylvania. I am on several rosters as emergency backup with both local and county police. I believe 100% in the right to keep and bear arms and also am a firm believer that if this right is ever taken away, the criminals will still have all their guns and it will in no way help cut back the crime rate in any way. Pennsylvania has a liberal gun policy and because of that the BAD GUYS here always need to think twice about any crime they commit. They never know when they will be out gunned by the lady walking down the street. It may not be the ideal situation but it works for me. I carry a Walther PPKS 380 in the summer and a Smith & Wesson 9mm in the winter. In 35 years I've only pulled it 1 time as backup for one of our local officers in need of a little help. So I don't consider myself one of the crazy gun nuts. Its there if needed. The only thing I feel needs to be improved in this state is a mandatory instruction course in the use, care and proper operation before a gun purchase can be completed. Too many people hurt themselves cleaning that gun that ISN'T LOADED. Anyway its refreshing to see a normal, calm debate with both sides respecting the others opinion for a change. Jerry
there are very few people on either side that thinks all guns should be banned. that will never fly with the American public
Does anyone remember the scene from "Red Dawn" where the commander tells the subordinate to go to the Court House and get all the gun registration documents? That was a powerful movie. Guns are not evil. They are nothing more than a tool. A more efficient tool than a rock. TC
We are losing an awful lot of liberties in the name of terrorism, the ability to use free speech or hold demonstrations. I think this a very poor excuse, in my mind the terrrorists have already won. We live in a climate of fear, perpetuated by parliament & the media has to bear some responsibility. What really annoys me, if you question policies, you are labelled a terrorist. The police want to hold people without charge for up to 90 days & without knowing why you are being held. One of the fundametal principals in our society is that you are innocent until proven guilty. That is slowly been turned around to where you have to prove your innocence. This changes the relationship between the state & the people. The people are becoming the enemy. We live in frightening times, but the only thing I am really scared of is our government & rushed legislation.
