The Gun is Civilization Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some. When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly. Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
I was in the Army 71-73, but in the medical corps. I spent a year in Korea but never had basic training-I had one day's training with my WEAPON, not my firearm or GUN which was for fun!! Which Army were you in? @fredbun The friends I had in Korea were some of my finest, altho we never had the bad times like those in Nam. Ours was more of the MASH setting w/o war! @neph keeping that gun barrel warm I see. glad to see you still lurking.
Garm I was in the Army with the 1st Special Forces Group, our home base was in Okinawa but that was just for training purposes, most of our time was spent patrolling the Cambodian border as how many of the VC and NVA would cross from N.Vietnam to S,Vietnam using Cambodia to get there and so on and so on, I'm not gonna get into war stories, but that doesn't mean we didn't have some great times cause we did, and yes I do miss my friends, I still keep in touch with some by phone or mail and some I even found because of the internet, I love this new technology. Speaking of technology, my MOS was weapons specialist, my weopon was the WWII Thompson, yes bieng with the SF had it's perks, but that's what I used, very reliable and much less jams and easier to keep clean than the M16, it doesn't have the range of the 16 but you don't need range when your in the bush, besides that 45 cal. of the thompson if it hit you your going down, but these new weapons today, wow, I used to be a specialist, not any more, I couldn't be a weapons specialist today, if I were in the army today I would need a different MOS, I would be to stupid, all these new weapons amaze me, more power to the youngsters today handling them, this new army to me is more disciplined and smarter, I don't think I could have been a good soldier today with all this technology, I'm still learning how to use the PC properly. Anyway I don't care about weapons anymore, even stopped hunting in the late 80's occasionally I see the new stuff on them learning channels or read some, lol over my head weapons but learning always sparks my interest about new stuff, but if I could own one weapon, I would love to have my old trusty back, that Thompson saved my ass more than once, and a sad part is, my CO was allowing me to ship it home, against the law of course but we had ways, I declined, another fellow soldier wanted to give it a shot after learning the success I had with it, but man do I wish I had taken up the CO's offer.
Did someone detect a little plagiarism there? It did all look a little too neat and a thin column also. @fredbun my weapons of choice were high speed drill, forceps, and sharp needles! LOL and for 13 mo I hardly had to play Army. Only 2 or 3 people outranked me at Camp Stanley. It's nice when you get drafted as a Capt. The fun we had. The MASH movie came out while I was there and it was really a place, 5 miles from us.
The main arguement I got here from the pro-gun people is they have guns for protection? What are you protecting yourself from? Are people after you? Are you involved with gangs or drugs. If not I don't see the need at all. Also I remember one guy saying to me he has a gun because his house was broken into twice. Could one of you gun owners tell me what you would do if you woke up in the middle of the night and heard someone in your house?
lololol, good one garm, I got a kick out of that, doesn't matter where you were, you served, and I say well done and good for you.
I was in the Australian Defence Force, but I have served with UK, New Zealand and US forces. The way that I was taught is that a weapon is a general term for any defensive instrument (knife, rifle etc). So yes, pro-weapon would be "correct", but that would also cover a knife and other non-projectile weapons (which is a completely different story). When I was in the army I would usually refer to a firearm by it's actual "class" (rifle etc). But I cannot refer to it by that as this covers all types of firearms. I don't see anything wrong with having a firearm in your house for protection, or hunting or any other recreational activity, if you know what you are doing.
Biffo I kinda stuck up for you a little way back, I felt kinda bad for you cause you were really picked on, but your burying yourself, hey I enjoy a good solid argument as long as it's a good one, but your not giving anybody here one, I respect your view, because your not pro gun doesn't make you wrong, unfortunatly many more mistakes can be made by pro gun people, thats sad but a way of life cause there are times that problems cannot be solved without one, and many more problems arise with one. You asked a question, and I'll give you an answer, a true senerio, and it's just one senerio, I've seen to many, but you asked about a break in, OK, as a kid and a young man I grew up in Philly, not all of Philly is bad but it does have it's badlands, that's were I grew up, my Dad always had guns in the house, he always took me hunting starting when I was little, and had hand guns in the house also, the street where we lived was bad, break in's all the time, we had 3 break in's, my Dad had powerful hunting rifles as well as 22 caliber rifles, we were always lucky cause in our home there was always somebody in the house either family or friends, all 3 break in's my Dad shot the intruder, my Dad always used his 22 rifle, he didn't want to kill anybody, not because he had a kind heart he knew there would be more trouble with the law, the first guy got it in the ass, I know we all heard him grab his ass while screaming jumping over the fence, never knew what happened to that guy, but rest assure he didn't try to rob our house anymore. But the other two also got it in the ass, my Dad was a deadly accurate shot, the second guy couldn't jump the fence, he was to hurt, my Dad was not a cop caller but he had no choice, he had to call, the cops in our neighborhood knew my Dad, they just took the guy away, this was in the 60's, we never heard about that guy either, we never had to go to court, who knows maybe they took him somewhere and beat the crap out of him and let him go or took him home we don't know, no matter I think everything was swept under the rug, cops didn't play around much in those days, but the 3rd time my Dad shot a burgler that was a different story. My Dad got arrested, the burglers sister had some pull with the courts or something, my Dad came home the next day, we had to go to court a month later but my Dad beat the charge, it was a bullshit charge anyway, he got shot in our yard he also had a huge knife on him, who knows what could have happened if any of these nitwits ever entered the house, I'm glad it never came to that, my Dad was leary about things after that especially when the cops told him he's on shaky ground with 3 shootings in 2 years, but we were lucky after that, we didn't have one burglary attemp after that 3rd shooting, not even on our block, there were burglary's across the street, on the other blocks, but never again on our block, we finally moved out of there in the 80's, in other words the word was out, all the scumbags communicate, and the word was out there's a crazy family living on that block, we might have been labeled crazy but we were a safe crazy family, after that our neighbors loved us. They were very upset when we moved out. My Dad never gloated on what he did, he just protected his family, the cops coudn't even do that job, he did it, yes bad things could have happened on all 3 occasions, but it didn't, he kept our family safe, sure it sucked he had to resort to that, and sure he could have called the cops and by the time the cops would have arrived those nitwits would have been long gone or worse, and they would have kept on trying till they were successfull in robbing us or worse. Could this be done today, absolutly no way, even though you can still protect your property even with a shooting but the reprocusions are a lot worse today even when your in the right. So yes you need to make a better argument with these guys, most of the guys on this thread are pro gun, your gonna need to dig a little deeper with your comebacks, thank the bearded guy upstairs that you probably never had you or yours life threatened and hope you never will, like I said before, I respect your way of thinking, but I've also known people that thought just like you, and when they saw them or there's hurt or in danger they started to change thier tune, I saw it happen to many times, but most of all lets hope you keep the way you think, that means you never faced any of these kind of problems, and that I say your luckier than most.
@biffo I would pick up my loaded gun next to my bed and since I still have excellent night vision I would proceed to said intruder and make sure he didn't take another step anywhere. There would be NO trial and I would be hailed as a hero where I live and perfectly within the law. What would you do if same circumstance, except maybe you had a daughter or wife in the house, and the person was looking for sex-----watch??
Fred did a nice job answering your question about what one of us would do if someone broke into our house... Thanks FRED!! NOW on the other subject... I'm a nice family man with a very beautiful family... wife and 3 kids! I"ve never tried drugs and have NEVER had any use for a gang of any sort!! I think they should all be flogged for the CR@P they do!! Your insinuations are inflammatory and upsetting to me!! It's NOT my fault that we were unlucky and someone broke into our house... it's unbelievably unnerving when something like that happens... I basically didn't sleep for months because of that... I had to figure out some way to protect my house and more importantly family!!! I have "weapons" all over the house now... NOT pistols, shotguns, or rifles but other stuff!!! Do I have a "gun" or two... YEP... but to be used when NO other recourse is available!! I personally have NO use for you or your attitude toward anyone that has a different opinion than yours!! It's a shame as you don't follow what most people preach!! I'll leave it at that and let you read between the lines. Good luck to you and may you always be protected by those around you!!!
bottom line is,dont own a weapon unless you are prepared to use it.if you are make sure you pull the trigger twice.not a joke.i live in canada and have heard all the idiot arguments against owning "firearms".i have never known a legitimate "gun"owner to use it in any way but responsible,and i have been shooting for over 40 of my 52 years.hell i could kill you with a baseball bat if i was so inclined.
Ever watched the news? If America had firearm restriction policies similar to what other nations have used people would still be able to legally buy a firearm, they would just need a legitimate reason for owning it. That would make it harder for criminals to commit most violent crimes (until they find another suitable weapon). I don't see anything wrong with those rules.
@Fred It was a different time and I have never lived in an area like that so I would not judge your dad for what he did. I respect that he protected his family. That was the response I was expecting. Killing someone for breaking into your house is not ok. You don't know anything about that person except they have broken into your house and for you that's enough to kill them. I am sorry if I insulted you. I was not trying to say anyone here is involved in drugs or gangs but make the point that if your not, there is no need for a gun in my opinion. I do find it funny how I seem to insult you with every post I make. Yet I seem to remember you saying I was like that proffessor who didn't get a promotion and so killed some of her collegues???? You can also read above Garmoon suggesting that if someone broke into my house looking for sex and I had a daughter and wife I would just watch. I rather try and ignore these silly comments but I find myself bringing them up because I keep insulting you and want you to know it goes both ways. If having a gun in the house helps you sleep and makes you feel protected great. You say you would only use the gun when no other recourse is available and that's the way it should be. However you can see from Garmoons post that alot of people are all too ready to pull the trigger. We talked about being a responsible gun owner before and if you have a gun for protection I think a gun safe in your bedroom is the only place for it. I doubt this is the case with all but a few gun owners. Remember the Sean Taylor case? A few kids broke into his house to rob it. He grabbed a machete from under his bed and when one of the kids saw him with it they shot him in the LEG and he died. If he didn't have a weapon the kid probably wouldn't have shot so that machete he had for protection means his daughter will grow up without a father. Very sad. I know you will say he should have had a gun. A shootout with 3 kids is not the best way to deal with someone breaking into your house. For the record if I was broken into I wouldn't go buy a gun. Burglars will look for the same things in a house so if you are robbed once you likely will again. Things like putting up a beware of dog sign (a dog is the biggest deterent for a burglar), a security light, visible alarm system, better locks on the doors and if it's a bad neighbourhood some bars on the windows. There are many other things you can do before buying a gun. If you read the first few pages of this thread you can see it started off with good debate on both sides. Now you have a couple of pro-gun people probably fed up of making the same arguement so they mostly just make silly posts against any anti-gun people who come here. No point to this thread anymore. Best of luck to you all.
@biffo we answered your question. But you have failed to answer mine. What would you do in that situation where some one attempts to rape daughter or wife? You still watching? Killing someone who's broken into ones house is not against the law in LA. Also if you get out of your car and hurriedly walk up to someone else's car in a threateningly manner-road rage, they can shot you dead thru the window- no harm no foul!
