Newbie needing advice

You mention a budget, so a 7900GT is going to be a bit extreme, and I certainly wouldn't recommend SLi. It's better to have a slightly lower GPU and more RAM than anything else.

Thus I'd recommend:
http://www.savastore.com/productinf...Savastore&product_id=10280422&pid=44&rstrat=0

http://www.savastore.com/productinf...Savastore&product_id=10279841&pid=44&rstrat=0
Get one, or better TWO of these.

There's no issue using IDE hard disks these days, if you want to use them, that's fine, all motherboards support 4 IDE channels pretty much, since optical (CD/DVD) drives still use it.

 

The guy wants a good gaming rig, what I have suggested will give him a close to top rig, with room for upgrading and plenty of overclocking potential, and it is right on the budget he quoted.

Sticking an ATI card on the NVIDIA chipset board is not the best performance match to start with.

The card is at its limit from the start, so the only improvement would be to totally replace that card and get another one or two better cards. If you look at the prices the 7900GT is only another £60 over the X850, but the performance will blow the X850 out the water.
In bench tests a single 7900GT beats even the X1800XT in 3DMark and FEAR @ 1024x768, and the 1800 obviously can not be run in crossfire on that board.
Adding more system RAM is not going to improve the GPU performance, it is only ever going to handle a certain number of FPS.

SLi has the main advantage of giving extra graphics performance in gaming, and all you have to do is add at a later date the same card again, at what is likely to be an even cheaper price than the original was bought.

As for Corsair value memory, if you are going to buy that, then you may as well just buy any old memory.
It’s the value end of the market, as such it does not perform as well as the XMS range, the latency will be higher for a start and if you overclock it, you will have to drop the timings down even more before it starts showing errors.
The XMS memory has been developed for better performance especially in gaming. (You get what you pay for).
Getting 1 stick of memory and only using 1 in a board that is designed to run dual channel is wasting the chance for performance and creating a bigger chance of instability on the system, you are creating an unnecessary bottleneck with only 1 RAM module.
If you get 2 individual sticks of cheap memory and slot them in, then you still add the problem of the memory modules not being identical and then not handling the data exactly the same.
Again you get instability and lesser performance.
XMS TwinX is tested as a pair to get the 2 modules as close a match as possible.
Ideally you could do with 2GB of RAM, but I wouldn’t compromise the quality of the system by putting in value RAM just to get the 2GB figure.
If you can afford 2GB to start with then that would be the way to go, but your looking at another £60 approx, otherwise you can stick with 1GB and upgrade later.

As I’ve said before I know someone using that board with 1GB of TwinX but with the 4400 x2 and 2 x 6800 GTs in Sli and they are play FEAR with the settings at max.
The 7900GT will out perform the 2 x 6800 GTs and the CPU advantage is only seen when running extra applications in the back ground, which having to close down is a small price to pay for the savings on the CPU.

As for the HDD’s, you would be fine with IDE drives to start with, but at least you have the ability to change them when you can afford it.
There are performance gains in SATA over IDE and also the advantage of smaller cables and better airflow inside the case.
HDD’s are basically the slowest part of the system, so any increase in speed there is seen easier over increases in speed in other areas such as CPU.

 

So no stupid SLi configs.

It is if he runs out, which WILL happen, sooner or later. 1GB sees me in virtual memory zone for FEAR, permanently.

You're steering this guy down the wrong track, advising SLi (I don't call 5% more performance for double the cost value for money). What's more there's next to no issue with an ATi card in an Nforce chipset, you just dont get conflicts like that. The ATI chipset isn't very good anyway.

The 7900GT is just too much for someone in that area to spend. The X850XT isn't that far off performance wise, unlike you say, and it's far cheaper, £90 where I've looked.

 

Where exactly have you looked for this card, and why didn't you give him that link instead of your posted link which shows the card at £140.35 inc vat + delivery. Total is
£145.99 so we're only looking at £54 exactly for the upgrade to the 7900GT.
Your Link:
http://www.savastore.com/productinf...Savastore&product_id=10280422&pid=44&rstrat=0
Maybe you need to check your prices again, or post the link to the £90 card you've seen.


I think we've already determined on another thread that you're not setup to run FEAR anyway as you were having problems, you obviously have setup problems on your system, as there are stacks of people playing FEAR with 1GB of memory.

You need to look at your setup and tweak the system for gaming not general use.

As said, I know someone playing FEAR with 1GB RAM and they have no problems, the difference is they know how to and have spent the time, to set their PC up correctly.
There are plenty of people out there on both sides saying that they can or can not play FEAR with 1GB of RAM, so it's obviously more system related not just memory size related.
I have already posted a stack of links to tweaking sites etc... and mentioned that time should be spent reading what is required to set the system up correctly. i.e.
http://www.tweakguides.com/FEAR_1.html

Here’s one quote from a gamer RE: FEAR

There is no 'stupid SLi config' listed in my build spec, what there was however, was the option to use it later with the card I had recommended, your suggestion was already at a dead end as far as upgrading options (that’s the difference).

As for the 5% gain in the card, well I can’t find a comparison between the X850XT and the 7900GT, but here is a comparison between the X1800XL and the 7900GT xxx both running FEAR, which clearly shows the advantage of the 7900GT over the ATIs X1800, I am presuming the X1800XL is a higher spec card than the X850XT, as every comparison I can see shows it beating the X850XTPE and the card you listed on savastore is only the standard XT not the PE version.

http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=891&pageID=2101

The card listed here is the xxx, but as I’ve already said, the standard 7900GT can be overclocked to around the speeds of the xxx using the Ntune utility which has had the Coolbits registry hack applied to it.
As seen here:
http://www.boxgods.com/dept/hardware/index.php?Action=Article&ID=191&Page=1#Introduction

I never said that there were conflicts with the ATI cards on the Nvidia boards; I said it wasn’t the best performance match.
Nvidia chipsets are designed to work with Sli compliant graphics cards, as Nvidia produce these cards, then obviously the performance is going to be maximized by using Nvidia based GPUs.

If you’re saying that there are next to no issues with ATI and Nvidia, does that mean that there are some issues that you know about?

Regardless of differences in opinion you and me may have, there really is no point arguing about what card or memory gheckles gets, as I'm sure if his takes our advise then adds his own conclusions from a bit of homework, he'll end up with the system he wants to get, not what we want him to get.

 

Sure, but not everyone wishes to OC their card, as I'm sure even you realise the stability problems that can result. Whether or not other people can play FEAR fine at 1GB is irrelevant. Not everyone wishes to spend ages fiddling and adjusting to get their commit charge as low as possible.

No there arne't any I know about, but that doesn't mean to say I know every case scenario about, does it?

The £90 wasn't the price of the card, it was how much less the X850XT costs than the 7900GT.


I'm not trying to force any specific choice upn him, but I feel it's our duty to steer him in the right direction for his needs and not have him waste money (you more than hinted at SLi -

)

The 7900GT XXX in the benchmarks you listed outs the X1800XL by around 50%, so the X850XT by about 60%. However, you notice that X850XT was about £140. I can only find a 7900GT XXXequivalent card for about £250-£255. That's not far off double the cost, and on his 500-600 budget has consumed nearly half of that. Plus of course a 7900GT is quite possibly overpowered for most people's needs. Unless you have the capability/need for 1600x1200 or higher, the 850 will do fine.

 

Here is the link again to the 7900Gt card at (£199 total price) for those that can't read back through the thread
XFX Geforce 7900GT 256MB GDDR-3 PCI-E £199 inc vat, inc free delivery.
http://www.lowestonweb.com/Products/DisplayInfoMain.asp?e=F22A926...
P.S. Savastore has a crap reputation for both delivery problems and aftersales service, that another reason to avoid that particular store.
Just an example.
http://www.reviewcentre.com/review182646.html

Which is it, your figures aren't consistent?
P.S. 60% is a single card not SLi.

Yes I would more than hint at SLi, I am quite open that I consider that SLi is a far better option than Crossfire, as do most other people.
http://www.it-review.net/index.php?...k=view&id=446&Itemid=111&limit=1&limitstart=2
The fact that the top SLi cards out perform the top Crossfire cards, and there is no need for the Master/Slave board configuration, makes it far better, the current R580 chips don’t allow for two ‘like cards’ to run in Crossfire together.

If you actually read the words I wrote and you again quoted, I said that SLi should be considered as an upgrade path.
It’s called forward thinking and forward planning (something your suggestion was totally lacking).

No not everyone does, and it isn't just about commit charge, its getting the whole system to perform at its best. (He’s building a gaming rig!)

The ideal and easiest option would be to throw money at problem, but as the option was not available in this instance, I supplied what was a viable option to allow the applications to run at a budget he could afford. (right on budget)

I am more than happy to help someone set their PC up correctly, just because you obviously can't be bothered to, and maybe most people can't do it, doesn't mean that it isn't best practice to do so.
Maybe you should try it some time! You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

That is just laughable to make that statement, the guy is building a gaming rig today not a year ago, and will be using it in a couple of years, not just for the next 6 months.
The one difference I can mainly see from what you have said and what I have said is that I have always backed up my comments and claims with links to the facts.
2GB of RAM is actually overkill for most people’s needs, except for the odd instance and for those people whose systems can’t play FEAR without it, it could be described as overkill, especially on the initial build when finances are stretched furthest.

I can’t see anything you’ve actually said that has factually contradicted what I have said at all, which then begs the question ‘why you bothered’.
You haven’t actually contributed anything constructive to the build of this system.

Finally, I did not enter this particular thread to exchange banter with Sammorris for gods knows how long.
The guy wants help and useful info, not to read a pointless knocking session between you and me.

@Gheckles (you know how to get hold of me when you need the help) speak soon.

@Sammorris (maybe try to make sure you know what you’re talking about when handing out advice in future).

I’m out of here

 

half a dozen items bought, no problems, no complaints, not even heard of any problems bar yours (Microdirect on the other hand, well!)

Read what I write CAREFULLY. The 60% is for ONE 7900GT over the X850XT. The 5% for SLi, is for two 7900GTs versus one.

Did I advise crossfire? No I did not. SLi has the mild advantage, but better still, USE ONE CARD!!!!

If you're minted, why not. This guy is spending 500-600. HE AIN'T A MILLIONAIRE.

Doesn't mean he has hours of free time on his hands. The sole reason my system runs poorly is that I just don't have the time to sort it out. He might do, he might not do, I've left that open.

Oh please, I'm a senior member, and have become so by mainly doing just that, helping people. Go eat a biscuit.

You're seriously telling me an X850XT won't run games in 6 months time? Tighten those screws man, it's STILL a high end card. I wouldn't even go that far if I only had £500 to play with, I'd go X800GTO, it can game now, it can game in the future.

Gheckles, have I contributed anything constructive bar this rant? I'm not here to argue, I'm here to do as I always do, HELP YOU OUT. I personally don't think you need as much as a 7900GT. If you can afford it, great, but just consider how much you actually need.

Then came Windows Vista, when I will have and need 2GB of RAM.

Good, do us all a favour.




I'm sorry about all this, but sometimes I wonder whether BigDK is talking out of the right end of his digestive system.

 

@Sammorris

It’s not very clever to start throwing personal abuse about, it only shows that you have obviously reached the confines of your debating ability.
But as you’ve started I’m sure I can chuck some in for you.

Obviously you weren't prepared to let things lye and now because your argument has hit the floor, you’re trying to use your forum rank as an indication of the soundness of your argument.
What (your senior, so you must be right)

By reading some of your posts on various threads it’s more than obvious that you didn't become a senior member by adding useful or accurate input to threads.

Still you haven't actually shown anything I said to be incorrect. (I’m still waiting!)

Again you haven't actually supplied any facts or links to back up what you’re saying.
You seem to pluck facts and figures out of the air and drivel on about anything that makes your own ATI card sound better.

Now here is a link for you, just in case you don’t know what a link is:

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/SLI-7800-gtx-SLI-7900-gt-ftopict181099.html

Now scroll down the page to the figures listed by Banusflakes (this is hardly 5%)
FarCry 1024x768 x4AA x8AF:
7900GT: 108fps
7900GT SLI:141 fps

FarCry 1600X1200 x4AA x8AF
7900GT: 52fps
7900GT SLI: 116fps

Now rather than just say this is crap or change the subject to money again, actually provide some links to back up what has come out of your extended orifice.
I want to see the 5% gain from single to SLi 7900 GTs which you have quoted.
As far as I’ve seen, getting info on the 7900 GTs in SLi is not easy as there aren’t too many around.

I've read more than enough of your posts to see why you've become a senior member.
It’s called reaching 500 posts.
Not 500 useful posts.
Not 500 intelligent posts.
Not 500 accurate posts.

At least my input is original and based on experience.
Yours tends to be parrot like repetition of what other people have already said, you should change your username to Polly!
Then when you come up with something original to say, you could have your own catch phrase ‘ Polly’s Got A Cracker!’.

Take your blinkers off, and accept that there is a reality outside of your limited world of experience, and that regardless of my obviously inferior status on this forum I seem to be providing facts rather than opinions.

I think you mean, 'do me a favour', it only appears to be you that has a problem with what I've said so far, and it’s also quite obvious why.

 

What's wrong with biscuits? Lol but seriously, I don't intend to just flat argue with people, and by the looks of it you know I know better, I'm just trying to make sure gheckles isn't being put down the wrong track, that's all.
heaven forbid, I wouldn't disobey a moderator, but I really don't believe what's coming from BigDK is all the truth. yes the 5% is an exadgeration (If I didn't mention that I'm sorry) but Far Cry is one of those carefully picked cases where SLI is majorly advantageous. A large number of other games don't see good use of it. Here, I'll find some evidence of that, and from the same site to avoid bias.

Not 500 useful posts.
Not 500 intelligent posts.
Not 500 accurate posts.
As for this, of course not all 500 posts are absolutely positively useful, but I don't believe in answering a question and then clearing off, it seems good and proper to make good conversation out of a topic. I have no intention of abusing my status of having posted 500+ messages to convey my argument, it just doesn't stand trial.

Above all, I AM NOT SAYING I'M NOT WRONG. Clearly, and indeed upon reflection, I've been talking out of my backside for a fair few posts, and accord from one of my most highly respected people shows it. I've been pretty busy, and AD is just the wrong place to voice that.

Anyway, relating back to topic:
http://tomshardware.co.uk/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viiiuk/page5.html - SLi being seriously detrimental in AOE3 - dropping a full 26% i make it.
Just one example though, not good enough,

How about the next game in the test:
http://tomshardware.co.uk/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viiiuk/page8.html
SLi's detrimental here too, 19% or so in the high quality test, and 27% in the final test.

How about serious Sam? I make SLi about 10% detrimental here.
http://tomshardware.co.uk/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viiiuk/page12.html


Only in Quake 4 does SLI really hold its own, and I might add that the first three games mentioned are all good examples of NEW graphics technology. If anything, SLI seems to do better in older games.

Now clearly this is a small number of games, but it's half of THG's benchmark suite, and I'm sure Tom's hardware know better than to bias their games in favour of a certain side.

 

Again you have failed to actually deliver the figures and links I asked for.
You have quoted the 7900GT in SLi and every link you’ve now finally produced hasn’t actually shown a single 7900GT card.

That just shows what a delusional little twerp you are.

Take those rose coloured glasses off when you look in the mirror.

No you didn’t mention it was exaggeration, that was me.
You just presumed no one was going to argue with what you said.
As for not believing me, why not? Is it because I’m not as high a grade as you on this forum, because yet again, I’m waiting for you to actually provide any info that disproves anything I said.

Again I provided links to show that what I said was not not just my opinion, you have again just spouted your own opinion with no facts, and since when did Microdirect come into this thread (read back carefully I haven't listed them).

You have enough time to sit at your pc adding comments on everyone else’s PC and their problems via this forum, yet you don’t have the time to spend on you’re system.
Strange situation that!

I would suggest that if you spent even half the time you dedicate to improving and fixing other peoples systems, to your own system, it may run better than it does.

I suspect it’s not a case of not having the time, more a case of you not actually having the ability to do it, that itself is not something to be condemned, as I said in an earlier post, not everyone does have the ability, but then again not everyone tries to pretend they do.

So by this statement, it appears that you believe forward thinking/planning is the sole privilege of the wealthy.

So once and for all, please please! rather than just keep telling us how wonderful you really are, provide some proof about what I’ve said being wrong, and provide some info that shows your suggestions are better than mine.
Basically put up, or shut up!

 

I was actually referring to nephilim, obviously you didn't spot that.

Patience my boy, it will come. I can't help but notice you're still piling on the agressive tone. Surely you can learn from what neph has just said? You're fighting fire with fire, which in this case, I don't think is a good idea. Don't have any evidence for that one I'm afraid, you'll just have to take my word for it.

let's say I know someone who has used them and has been less than satisfied with the experience. Tap in arvinf into a PM and ask him.

It is funny, I care more about helping other people than helping myself run one single game.

Likewise.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2006/03/09/ati_and_nvidias_same_day_mega_launch_mayhem_uk/page13.html
HL2:LC is one example of a bad case for SLi. However, THG don't have benchmarks using the latest and greatest (well maybe not greatest) with 7900GTs so you can't get the full picture. I've tried to indicate the problems with SLi in those new games, but obviously it isn't exactly the right card, so it's irrelevant. SLi pretty much works the same way for cards of this level for particular games. The only instance that's different for different cards is that 6600s work well in SLi, whereas faster cards don't. However, two 6600s is still a fair amount of money, and you can get an X1800XT or single 7800GT for that amount and beat the setup hands down. SLi has many merits indeed, but not for the amount of money he has to spend.

Find me a price for a 7900GT XXX edition (I do believe that's the version you mentioned earlier) such that you can get two of them, a good CPU, plenty of RAM, a case a power supply and the rest for that amount.

 

Correct, I misinterpreted your earlier statement, took 3 reads to see what you actually meant!

Now if you actually read the thread! All I've said is there to be seen, along with links.
You are basing this whole argument on you not believing all I say is the truth, so show me what it is I’ve actually said that is wrong.

Of course you do! You’re actually a bit of a hero really.
So presumably you think setting your PC up correctly will only help you play FEAR, shows a distinct lack of understanding of the points made, and system building.


It’s alright saying have patience, how patient have people got to be, it’s getting very boring reading that you don’t believe me, but so far all I’ve seen is:

I really don't believe
yes the 5% is an exaggeration
I've been talking out of my backside for a fair few posts
Patience my boy, it will come
Don't have any evidence for that one I'm afraid
you'll just have to take my word for it
I just don't have the time to sort it out
let's say I know someone who has used them and has been less than satisfied with the experience

Classic Quotes those, if I was reading this impartially you’d easily have convince me you knew what you were talking about.

Now some facts:

I mentioned the GT xxx card as the comparable version of card the recommended 7900GT could be overclocked to.

I mentioned SLi as an upgrade path, not as part of the recommended system purchase. Why you keep diverting from my actual system recommendation I’m not sure?, you seem to have latched onto the SLi as the main body of your argument, but again have a proper look and you’ll see I didn't ever recommend 2 cards.
I only recommended the 1 card and pointed out the advantages it would give later when upgrading, as opposed to using an ATI card on the motherboard in question.

I already mentioned 1GB of quality TwinX dual channel compatible memory (as you know), one of your suggestions was a single 1GB module, to which I pointed out the performance deficiencies of that as a considered solution on that motherboard.

I also mentioned a quality compatible CPU with plenty of overclocking potential (as you know) and highlighted the options on the cooler for it.

Why exactly you’re quoting Micro Direct in comparison to Savastore I’m not sure, I didn't use MD in my part list, I used LOW and Scan.

Again, your info is quoted as 'I know a mate' really helpful that one, at least I posted a link to show the poor rating SStore had with consumers.
If everyone was disappointed with SStore then they would go out of business, you’ve been lucky and had a good experience, but they do not have a very good reputation generally, as pointed out many times by other users on AD.
RE SLi:

Maybe that’s why the board has an AI Selector, so it can be switched on and off.
I’ve never said all games where developed with NVIDIA in mind, strangely enough some will always work better on ATI, it depends on who and how the game was developed.

As for putting up or shutting up!, I have repeatedly put up and again displayed links to back up what I’ve said, I can’t see what more you actually require.

As for prices, look at the original parts lists, you'll find it adds up to just over £600.

It was a recommendation not an order to buy.

Firstly he’s not running Windows Vista, secondly and more importantly, it brings us back to that other little thing I’ve mentioned a few times (forward planning) he can add another 1GB RAM when required.
But that is a poor justification to buying the extra memory now, as most users wouldn’t cross over to Vista for quite some time after release, and it definitely wasn’t part of the system requirements.

 

How about, we just relegate this to private messaging? It's a waste of this thread and not really what forums are for. I'm not going to respond to half of what you've said, it really doesn't need a response, and will only invoke name-calling again. Funny, I'm still at school and I've grown out of that.

edit:Oh yes. I forgot to add my proof:

That'll do nicely.

If either of us discover something else useful to add to this thread, we can add it. We've totally destroyed Gheckles' original question by ranting.

You know full well you've used several of those quotes of me in the wrong context, so don't try that one on.

You don't have to take my advice, but on occasions some people like to believe what other people say and listen to them rather than sitting there, hand out waiting for written proof from the queen.

I wouldn't mind betting that Gheckles already has his system built and running after all this.

 

NOTICE

I hereby withdraw from the pitiful argument that has plagued afterdawn. This thread has done nothing but worsen my reputation and that of other AD senior members.

I apologise for any angst I have caused anyone, and to anyone I have misled, particularly gheckles and also to Nephilim, who's probably read all this.

That says it all
I hope you get what you truly need, Gheckles, and lord knows I'm not the one to ask. Good luck with your PC!
Bye now!