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Nvidia vs ATI

Discussion in 'PC hardware help' started by otester, Jun 6, 2004.

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  1. Nephilim

    Nephilim Moderator Staff Member

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    True, true.

    Let's hope for ATI's sake they do make strides. I love a spirited fight but it looks like ATI just took a pretty good left hook with Doom 3.
     
    Nephilim, Aug 12, 2004
    #281
  2. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok so perhaps I was a bit harsh :p, sorry ... a couple things though

    - To call the 5900 a budget card is quite an unfair statement. Not everyone's got cash to shell out for that card (and thus we have the 5200 and 5500-5700). It is by no means whatsoever a budget card.

    - As for the 5600 -- there have been benchmarks showing that they can take on the 9600 -- much to my surprise -- but since i cant find them for the life of me, ill treat it like heresay. (too bad to, i do believe that was quite an interesting article even though i only skimmed it)

    - The 5800/59x0 aside, the new 6800s run damn near silent too. They have virtually the same cooler really on both the ATI and nVidia cards. Especailly if you mention the 6800 by name (rather than the series), it's potentially argueable that the 6800 cooler runs quieter than that of the X800 (but that's a moot point considering it's a decible or two); as for the GT and the Ultra, the GT will easily match any ATi card for lack-of-noise and the Ultra, depending on the make, will also match it (however the more common Ultra's wont)

    - I think the assumption that HL2 will run "better" on ATI is a fair one but as it stands, especially for being a "partnered" game, ATI cards dont quite have a dominating lead (yet).

    - I did note that you said that they werent your comparisons etc (and I did see that you're an nVidia fan); perhaps I jumped the gun when i saw points being made based on some fairly ridiculous comparisons (and in all fairness they are quite meaningless comparisons). You seemed like a fairly knoweledgeable fella -- i guess I expected to see a concrete comment something along the lines of "yes i know this is a ridiculous comparison but...." rather than the more open-ended "meditate on that" remark :)

    - I'm here to enforce open-ended objective arguments in favor of both ATi and nVidia and will pounce (so to speak) on the first trace of fanboyism -- real or percieved. I must congratulate you however: this is the first case where I've made a bad-call as far as fanboyism comes. :p
     
    Praetor, Aug 12, 2004
    #282
  3. The_OGS

    The_OGS Active member

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    Buxton's no Fanboy ;-(
    Just to note that Buxton's 120 Pounds Sterling is $300 (Aus/Cdn) or $225 (US).
    I can get an Asus Radeon 9600XT 128MbDDR AGP TV-Out Retail Box for $250 Canadian (or about 100 Pounds).
    The closest NVidia is Asus v9570/TD GeForce FX 5700 256MbDDR AGP Retail Box, a few quid less.
    These are 2 'affordable' performance boards right now, any higher model rises dramatically in price...
    What about these two, direct comparison?
     
    The_OGS, Aug 12, 2004
    #283
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    The 9600 and 5700 are rougly on par with each other
     
    Praetor, Aug 12, 2004
    #284
  5. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    Praetor - Cheers and phew. Fanboy is just to damn close to nerd for my liking :)

    It's almost impossible to really compare cards as ATI and nVidia choose (for obvious reasons) not to release cards at the same time - so with each release one company takes the lead for two months then the other takes over and on and on.

    Toms Hardware has about the best table of VGA comparisons I have seen - but it hasn't got the new stuff on. It's not perfect but it gives a decent "overall" on where each card stands on a like for like system.

    The FX5900 is really a budget card now in the UK - this may not count for everywere - I really didn't take exchange rates into account - so I take your point.

    http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/FX5900_Series.html

    The ASUS is only £119 - for an FX5900 that is phenominal value for money.

    As far as HL2 goes, I just get the feeling ATI are in deep trouble if nVidia can compete on that game, especially if they don't get Doom3 upto speed, so I can see HL2 using every ATI trick in the book to make that so.

    Asked around at work and apparently Doom3 is still locked at 60Fps - but I can't confirm it. The quotes are from just before Christmas - so they may have abandoned that idea over the past 8 months or so.
    So I remain to be corrected on that one if I am wrong.

    Once again I missed a point.

    The problem with the FX5200 and even the Ultra version is that it is esentially useless in DX9 - and so it kind of defeats the point of what nVidia were attempting - top to bottom DX9 regardless of price. Although I don't rate the 5600 at least that can cope to a certain extent and the Ultra version even more so.

    The 5600Ultra should have been the 5600 to start off with and the 5200 should have been left on the drawing board. But then again I suppose it's all about money and how much it costs to manufacture them.

    It would have been a lot better if they could have released the 5600 instead of the 5200. And then have the 5700 instead of the 5600. With the Ultra version inbetween.

    I can't tell you the ammount of arguments with customers we had over this - MY F**KING GF4MX IS FASTER THAN THIS IN 3DMARK or MY F**KING GF4TI4200 WAS TWICE AS FAST AS THIS CRAP

    Yes they swear a lot.

    Try explaining GFX card fundementals to a guy who knows sod all about everything - BUT - sees DX9 on the box.

    Maybe it's this that leaves a bitter tase as far as the FX5200 goes.


    EDITED FOR A VAST AMMOUNT OF BAD SPELLING.




    _
    _
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]I don't know what I am doing.[/small]
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2004
    buxton, Aug 13, 2004
    #285
  6. Nephilim

    Nephilim Moderator Staff Member

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    I imagine that would be akin to pissing into the wind :)
     
    Nephilim, Aug 13, 2004
    #286
  7. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    Believe me... "nerd" from me comes as a compliment :)

    Who wants to bet HL2 wont use DirectX9.0c (i.e., PS3.0) so ATi isnt at a disadvantage? :p

    Agreeded but lets also not forget the profile of the 9200/5200. It was NOT designed as gamer card.... it was NOT designed as a budget gamer card (even thought you'll probably find it under those categories) ... it WAS designed as a business end card (and eventually marketed as a gamer card when both companies saw the niche for budget cards). And as a business card, sheer performance (or even ANY performance) is not really quite neccesary. The low price and improved perfomance over the previous generation make it a tempting choice for startup companies and others looking to upgrade :)

    Indeed but those customers (and i'm in retail so I know) DIDNT bother to do reading -- they DIDNT bother to ask questions about reccomendations (or they talked to dumbass employees trying to get sales) -- they DID fall for the "bigger number is better" routine and you know what? Too bad. As much as I sympathize -- if you shell out mnoney for it and you werent actually scammed and it was dissapointing becuase you didnt do your background research -- too bad. A big warning bell should have come up when the "new card" is cheaper than the "old card" -- qeustions should be asked, reading should be done.

    Good point and it slightly negates my previous remarks however you and I both know that the 52/92 are both bad cards but our opinion is voiced by not buying them. The companies are out there trying to sell cards ... they are concerned with the bottom line. Sure they see you and me slamming those cards yeah yeah but they also see a crapload of sales of them too.

    In all honesty it's not that difficult to do: if people are able to let themselves get convinced by dumbass technoweenies at the computer store than its not so hard for competent person to explain basically which card is the ideal one for that person's budget and requirement. Consider this: you get a person who comes in and they want to get their first family PC and it'll be for schoolwork, chatting, email, mp3s -- basic shit. There is NOT a reason in the world for anyone to suggest anything past the 5200/9200 simply because that is all the person needs.
     
    Praetor, Aug 13, 2004
    #287
  8. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    If HL2 comes with DX9c on the Disk I will be very suprised.

    I can see your point on the budget cards - companies like MSI and XFX now sell them as a "Home Theater" with remote control and TV receiver - it's clearer now who the card was aimed at. As a marketing ploy the DX9 was clever and worked.

    And just to clear the Doom3 issue - it is locked at 60Fps - but only in game mode. Timedemo unlocks it and hence the higher rates in benchmarking. So we were both right on that one.

    There is some stuff about it on rage3D - looks like ATI's performance is down to the way the drivers control things like AA - some ATI techie has hacked it - it is faster when the Doom engine controls it - at high resolutions he is getting large increases in speed. If they get that sorted on the 4.9 it could get interesting. Well as interesting as something like this can get. :)


     
    buxton, Aug 16, 2004
    #288
  9. otester

    otester Guest

    You can already download it on the Microsoft Site
     
    otester, Aug 16, 2004
    #289
  10. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    Okay, i made some mistakes in those comparisons, but for those who are saying "that ATi got trounced by the equivalent nVidia in doom 3" doom 3 gives advantages to nvidia cards because of the way the graphics are made to my knowledge.

    Just because that game is a particularly well-known one that is about to come out should not swing the vote for all those other inconsistencies.

    And in any case, even if Nvidia cars are better for doom 3, then surely i would be able to get good graphics performance with an Ati, as long as it was a good one, surely?
     
    sammorris, Aug 16, 2004
    #290
  11. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    The point Praetor is making is that DirectX9c supports PS3.0 - this is nVidia only. ATI supports PS2.0b - this is a DirectX9b function. As ATI/Valve are developing HL2 as partners it will be strange if Valve introduce functions that imporve performance on a rivals card - don't forget that HL2 is bundled with certain ATI cards.

    I didn't mean DirectX9c isn't out - just that if Valve put it on the CD it means HL2 supports it and it's a (Possible) dark day for ATI.

     
    buxton, Aug 16, 2004
    #291
  12. otester

    otester Guest

    I think that as the FPS is capped to 60 , there should be a big difference (even a little difference)
     
    otester, Aug 16, 2004
    #292
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    More specifically, because all the optimizations and crap that ATi cards have arent being used and thus ATi cards are fighting an uphill battle (unoptmized vs optimized)

    Oh of course, no doubt :)

    Huh?
     
    Praetor, Aug 17, 2004
    #293
  14. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    You can uncap the 60Fps in game as well - not tried it yet.

    Catalyst 4.8 WHQL were released yesterday - they apparently have amd increase in Doom3 in certain systems.

    By the time the new Catalyst 4.9 appear they are going to weigh in around 40Mb! You also need to have .NET Framework 1.1 installed 20Mb! 60 Freaking MB for a driver download, OUCH if you are on a modem.
     
    buxton, Aug 17, 2004
    #294
  15. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    A modem is a very general term. I'm on a modem but its a 512k one so thats not too much trouble. However, i agree that 60MB is a bit steep for those on 56k - that could be up to 6 hours!!!
     
    sammorris, Aug 18, 2004
    #295
  16. otester

    otester Guest

    im in a well small village and suddenly BT comes around and says "oh, your exchange will be ADSL ready in October" i was like , urrrr, whats the point hardly many people live here (let alone have broadband) why moan , its gr8!
     
    otester, Aug 18, 2004
    #296
  17. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    The point is that every telephone line in the UK is to have broadband by 2006.
     
    sammorris, Aug 18, 2004
    #297
  18. otester

    otester Guest

    you know what BT's like there shit , why cant the whole UK have Cable by 2006.
     
    otester, Aug 18, 2004
    #298
  19. sammorris

    sammorris Senior member

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    Bt aren't responsible for Cable, but they are running test runs of FIbre-optics in Milton Keynes. Bring on the day when we all have that!

    To answer a few previous posts, I woul;dn't really call the FX5900 a budget card, but i do agree on the all round badness of the 5200/5600s.

    Admittedly Doom 3 is an nVidia partner game and so nvidias should win, but i think its GL origins are what defeat ATi. UT04 was an nVidia way its meant to be played game and a lot of ATis performed better on it than nvidias becausew thst was Direct3D.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2004
    sammorris, Aug 18, 2004
    #299
  20. Praetor

    Praetor Moderator Staff Member

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    Please cease this off topic stuff. If you wanna talk about internet and BT, take it to Filesharing.
     
    Praetor, Aug 18, 2004
    #300
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