Official PS3 vs. Xbox 360 vs. N. Revolution

lol!!! i almost fell over a chair.
*chewing* this imos pizza is great

*clears throat* anyway, until sony releases more info, the 360 has won it for me, but then again, sony does have those exclusive games, i mean, i'm getting them both anyway but just in case i change my mind and get something else.

the ps3's Cell Processor contains:


Contains 8 SPUs each containing a 128 entry 128-bit register file and 256KB Local Store

Contains 64-bit Power ArchitectureTM with VMX that is a dual thread SMT design

views system memory as a 10-way coherent threaded machine

2.5MB of on Chip memory (512KB L2 and 8 * 256KB)

234 million transistors

Prototype die size of 221mm2

Fabricated with 90nanometer (nm) SOI process technology

Cell is a modular architecture and floating point calculation capabilities can be adjusted by increasing or reducing the number of SPUs
Cell is a Broadband Architecture


Compatible with 64b Power Architecture

SPU is a RISC architecture with SIMD organization and Local Store

128+ concurrent transactions to memory per processor

High speed internal element interconnect bus performing at 96B/cycle

Cell is a Real-Time Architecture


Resource allocation (for Bandwidth Management)

Locking caches (via Replacement Management Tables)

Virtualization support with real time response characteristics across multiple operating systems running simultaneously

Cell is Security Enabled Architecture


SPUs dynamically configurable as secure processors for flexible security programming
Cell is a Confluence of New Technologies


Virtualization techniques to support conventional and real time applications

Autonomic power management features

Resource management for real time human interaction

Smart memory flow controllers (DMA) to sustain bandwidth



The Cell is a microprocessor design being developed by IBM in cooperation with Toshiba and Sony . The Cell chip is intended to be scalable from handheld devices to mainframe computers by utilizing parallel processing . Sony is using the chip in their PlayStation 3 game console to be released in spring 2006 .

While the Cell chip can have a number of different configurations, the basic configuration is composed of one "Processing Element" ("PE"), and eight "Synergistic Processing Units" ("SPU"). The PE is based on the POWER Architecture , basis of their existing POWER line and related to the PowerPC used by Apple Computer and others. The PE is not the primary processor for the system, but acts as a controller for the other eight SPUs, which handle most of the computational workload.

Each SPU is a VLIW 128-bit vector processor with 256 KB of local high speed memory , which is also visible to the PE to be loaded with data and programs as needed. The SPU's memory is also accessible from other SPUs, allowing data to be processed by one SPU and then handed off to the next at very high speed. In general use the system will load the SPUs with small programs, chaining the SPUs together to handle each step in a complex operation. For instance, a set top box could load up programs for reading a DVD, video and audio decoding, and display, and the data would be passed off from SPU to SPU until finally ending up on the TV. Each SPU gives 32 GFLOPS of performance, thereby giving the SPUs 256 GFLOPS of performance. Performance of the PE's VMX unit is unclear, but should be around 32 GFLOPS in addition to the SPUs.

In some ways the Cell system resembles early Seymour Cray designs in reverse. The famed CDC 6600 used a single very fast processor to handle the mathematical calculations, while a series of ten slower systems were given smaller programs to keep the main memory fed with data. In the Cell the problem has been reversed, reading the data is no longer the difficult problem due to the complex encodings used in industry; today the problem is efficiently decoding that data into an ever-less-compressed version as quickly as possible.


In other ways the Cell resembles a modern desktop computer on a single chip. Modern graphics cards have multiple elements very similar to the SPU's, known as vertex shader units, with an attached high speed memory. Programs, known as shaders , are downloaded onto the units to process the basic geometry fed from the computer's CPU , apply styles and display it. The main differences are that the Cell's SPUs appear to be much more general purpose than the average graphics card shader units, and the ability to chain the SPUs under program control offers considerably more flexibility, allowing the Cell to handle graphics, sound, or anything else. Given that the Cell is intended to be used in the PlayStation, the idea of a CPU+graphics card combination that is the fastest in the world is not entirely surprising.

Cell allows for multiple processing cores to be put onto one die, and the patent showed four cores on one die, called the "Broadband Engine", potentially giving over 1 Teraflops theoretical performance. The companies designing the chip have claimed they intend to scale performance for various uses, both low-end and high-end, by varying the number of cores on the chip, the number of units in a single core, and by linking multiple chips to each other via network or memory bus.

On the 17th May, 2005, Sony Computer Entertainment confirmed the spec of the Cell processor that would be shipping in the forthcoming Playstation 3 console. This Cell will have one processing unit on the core, with seven SPEs and one SPE reserved for redundancy. It will be clocked at 3.2 GHz , although in lab conditions the processor apparently has been clocked successfully up to 5.2 GHz. The chips are being fabricated using IBM's 90 nanometre SOI ( Silicon on insulator ) process, at its fab in East Fishkill , New York . Full production may switch at some later date to use a 65-nm or 45-nm process jointly developed by IBM and Toshiba at their Nagasaki fabrication plant. Sony currently is also using its 90-nm process to produce the integrated GS/EE for the PSX *, the Japan-only combination PlayStation 2/ DVR unit. (*This usage of "PSX" is distinct from the commonly used informal designation of the original PlayStation.)

Similar multiple-core designs include Sun Microsystems ' MAJC (pronounced "magic"). The first MAJC chip was originally designed for multimedia processing, although Sun have subsequently repositioned the MAJC chip as a high-end graphics processor for workstations. In addition, Stanford University 's Imagine Stream Processor shares a similar conceptual underpinning.


next i will be releasing info on the 360

 

uhhh..your stupidity kills me 00gravity..you say "next i will be releasing info on the xbox"..blah blah ..as if you know something that everyone else doesnt..what a wasted post...

 

ask, around, i've posted up so much stuff, i can get something that noone else knows

believe me, i can

 

Hey 00Gravity, i can see your head from here, who do you think you are?. Bill Gates brown nose assistant?

 

no, i just know a lot of people and do a lot of research, and you should be booted for insulting me. but i won't let your insulence cause disruption to my conversations and replys. i'm saying if u wan't info, i can find it

 

ok. can u get me sum info on the psp having somethin to do with the xbox 360. Like what can you do with it, like play games from psp on xbox 360?

 

Alien13: Nothing like games or anything. The idea is that you could connect the PSP and stream music/video/pictures from it to play on the 360. Same with the Ipod. So if you have a particularly good playlist that you like, you can just plug in your PSP and run your playlist in a game instead of what the developers have. Also, a teraflop is 1 trillion floating point operations. a Floating point operation is a basis for 3D games and once upone a time, was good for measuring how something could handle 3d games. These days, things are alot more muddled, but it's still used as a reference.

velascoj2: What I'm figuring is as follows... Basically, working with the 51 billion dot figure and assuming that they are going to 24 pixel pipes (The 6800 used 16. Technically, they 'might be able to do 32 pipes with the 90nm, but that would be a GREAT stretch). Now, 51 billion divided by the 550Mhz that it will run at comes out with 93 ops per cycle... (92.72727272...) Assuming that they use the 6800 technology, then they would produce 4 vector floating ops per cycle, leaving 372, which you would double for Multiple/Add operations... for 744 Glops... If they managed the 5 vector Flops (which I don't believe I have heard of Nvidia doing) then that would leave them at 460, doubling to 960 GFlops. All of this is assuming that the Cell isn't adding anything. If the 51 Billion dots was figured witht the Cell adding to it, those numbers would plummet drastically...

This doesn't touch on shader ability, which is more based on the pipelines than the GPU performance. The listed number of 136 per cycle seems quite reasonable (and also leads to the 24 pixel pipeline theory)

Adding up the numbers in the best case scenario (above), I can still only account for half of what Sony says the RSX can do. This is assuming that they can squeeze out the Vector5 stuff giving them a 25% improvement over the PC version.

Damnsaint: That was a good article on the Cell... Also, where are you in the Dominican? I'm down there now and again on business (Mainly Santa Domingo and Puerto Plata)...

 

00Gravity, Thank you for the info. and guys common hes trying to bring info that others may not know. I personally enjoyed some of the details. Keep it up. For the other two that reply to the post, well ignore it and move on. No offense Grunt14, The louge, your replies were out of place. Give the kid a break will you. It is repugnant replies to his post that make him angry. But if that is the intention intended, then its you personal vendetta.

 

Wvengence: Thanks for the post. Just wandering how diferent the gpu design is going to be from 6800 and how the integration of cell with the gpu will work on a realisct enviroment for developers to tap into the power of the system. Man I remember when sega tried to make Daytona usa for saturn. Developer team "am3 or 2" went through hell in order to untap the power of a system ( two sh-2 processors, they should had use the sh-3) that was not optimized for the perfomance looking for. At the end a dissaponting when comparing to model 2 arcade base daytona.

 

don't mess with my tekken, talk about anything else, but not tekken. you can say what ever you want about me or even my family, but not tekken
___________________________________________________
sorry, i dont like fighting games.

 

is sony still losing money? any one knows.
with 17 million the PS3 should take over half of that.

 

Xbox will have better games, end of story. Microsoft's strength has always been software, and they've made it easy for talented people to make great games. From what I've read, the PS3's cell will be a bitch to make games for. Microsoft has been talking about "procedural rendering" which will enable them to get the most out of their hardware, which may possible already be more powerful than the PS3 anyway. Oooooh, 2 gigaflops. Yeah, that's what Sony wants you to think. Microsoft's processor is more general purpose for a reason. A large part of the work a console processor does is NOT floating point operations. Sony's processor may be too specific, even hurting its performance in areas like gaming. The Xbox graphics card will be better as well. So, sony's nvidia card is 50 mhz faster? Xbox's card uses completely new technology, developed by the clever guys at ati, that unifies vertex and pixel shaders. It has twice as many pipelines as well. Also the xbox 360 has like 5 times the memory bandwidth of the ps3. Just look at the games, and remember, this is only the beginning.


BTW:
- Saint's Row will blow GTA away. Read an in-depth review.
- Metal Gear Solid 3 sucked. The only way MGS4 will be decent is if
the whole idea is redone.
- Sony's stuff at E3 was obviously prerendered cgi bs. Remember the
PS2 tech demos?
- Killzone sucked and so will Killzone 2.
- Gears of War will be awesome. Read a preview and you will understand.

 

BTW:
- Saint's Row will blow GTA away. Read an in-depth review.
- Metal Gear Solid 3 sucked. The only way MGS4 will be decent is if
the whole idea is redone.
- Sony's stuff at E3 was obviously prerendered cgi bs. Remember the
PS2 tech demos?
- Killzone sucked and so will Killzone 2.
- Gears of War will be awesome. Read a preview and you will understand.
___________________________________________________________________
you for got
Ghost recon 3
halo 3
fable 2
elder scrolls 4

 

A few pages back, Venom mentioned an article done by Time magazine & I said if anyone wants to have a read, then feel free to pm me and I would see what I could organise. Well, a few people have pm'ed me so I made a Photo-blog.
Imageshacks photoblog is crap and does not show the images in the order I put them on there in, so here are the adresses for each page... In order. I also had to scan the pics quite large so people could read all the text. Feel free to save any or all of the pages there

Page 1 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page12os.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 2 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page22lw.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 3 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page31lj.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 4 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page48vq.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 5 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page55fs.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 6 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page60bd.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 7 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page79lr.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 8 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page83uc.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

Page 9 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...=page91gi.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

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Page 11 - http://img197.imageshack.us/img_vie...page113kq.jpg&gal=img38/9842/endsigsml9zb.gif

 

Bill gates said that they were releasing halo 3 eother before or when the ps3 comes out. hopefully before. because the ps3 doesn't come out 'till summer in the u.s. it comes out spring in japan.

At Microsoft's Pre-E3 Press Conference, it was revealed that the Xbox 360 enables gamers to connect all sorts of peripherals to the new system. Want to steam music from your Ipod through the 360? Easy enough. How about uploading images from your digital camera? Assured. What about having your PSP make sweet, sweet connectivity with the Three-Six-Oh? Yeah, you can do that too.



While Microsoft wasn't bold enough to show this type of connectivity first-hand, the software giant showed a diagram that included Sony's PSP. The 360 can hook up with anything with a USB port, the PSP included. Finally you can swap porn between your PC, PSP and Xbox 360. The glory days are upon us!

Several people at Microsoft have told IGN in the past that while Microsoft finds it tempting to enter the handheld realm, they are content with the power of the Pocket PC. It's unlikely you'll see Xbox 360 commercials featuring the PSP, but expect the all-inclusive message of the 360 to include occasional mentions of Microsoft competitors. Expect PSP/Xbox 360 connectivity impressions the moment we get the new monster machine in the IGN office.

this info was released may 17th

 

CPU
The Xbox 360 processor was designed to give game developers the power that they actually need, in an easy to use form. The Cell processor has impressive streaming floating-point power that is of limited use for games.

The majority of game code is a mixture of integer, floating-point, and vector math, with lots of branches and random memory accesses. This code is best handled by a general purpose CPU with a cache, branch predictor, and vector unit.

The Cell's seven DSPs (what Sony calls SPEs) have no cache, no direct access to memory, no branch predictor, and a different instruction set from the PS3's main CPU. They are not designed for or efficient at general purpose computing. DSPs are not appropriate for game programming.

Xbox 360 has three general purpose CPU cores. The Cell processor has only one.

Xbox 360's CPUs has vector processing power on each CPU core. Each Xbox 360 core has 128 vector registers per hardware thread, with a dot product instruction, and a shared 1-MB L2 cache. The Cell processor's vector processing power is mostly on the seven DSPs.

Dot products are critical to games because they are used in 3D math to calculate vector lengths, projections, transformations, and more. The Xbox 360 CPU has a dot product instruction, where other CPUs such as Cell must emulate dot product using multiple instructions.

Cell's streaming floating-point work is done on its seven DSP processors. Since geometry processing is moved to the GPU, the need for streaming floating-point work and other DSP style programming in games has dropped dramatically.

Just like with the PS2's Emotion Engine, with its missing L2 cache, the Cell is designed for a type of game programming that accounts for a minor percentage of processing time.

Sony's CPU is ideal for an environment where 12.5% of the work is general-purpose computing and 87.5% of the work is DSP calculations. That sort of mix makes sense for video playback or networked waveform analysis, but not for games. In fact, when analyzing real games one finds almost the opposite distribution of general purpose computing and DSP calculation requirements. A relatively small percentage of instructions are actually floating point. Of those instructions which are floating-point, very few involve processing continuous streams of numbers. Instead they are used in tasks like AI and path-finding, which require random access to memory and frequent branches, which the DSPs are ill-suited to.

Based on measurements of running next generation games, only ~10-30% of the instructions executed are floating point. The remainders of the instructions are load, store, integer, branch, etc. Even fewer of the instructions executed are streaming floating point—probably ~5-10%. Cell is optimized for streaming floating-point, with 87.5% of its cores good for streaming floating-point and nothing else.

 

Edited Coz I was friggin censored. (Thanks)

 

no direspect but martial arts helps for discipline. it's not ment to fight, it's so you don't have to fight. (it's not like you can beat up my sensei) they trained me into killing anyway. plus if you faught any high ranked black belts, then they would have went to jail for even pretending to fight. once you get a certain rank you get registered. if your registered that means you can teach others ( of course with permission from your sensei as well)

just to let you know the facts, and i'm sure you probably beat up some white belts or something, nothing important

and to state the fact if you fight someone knows martial arts and is all ready a good street fighter, there's not much to help you there, in probably 2 more years i'll be registered in mo

and it will help, if you faught someone truly important, then they would have killed you. or broke your arms or something, just because you beat up an asian doesn't mean they knew martial arts, that would be prejudice. and i'm assuming that's what you ment. i still can't see how u could beat a black belt, don't get me wrong but the average street fighter can go head to head with the average black belt, but i just don't see you being anywhere near as good as the average street fighter, so make sure they did know martial arts and were not immitating a video game.

and don't reply and say u did beat a black belt, because beating up a high ranked black belt is like beating a pro boxer, now can anyone imagine that happening?

ps: does anyone know the expected release date of the nr?