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The Many Faces Of Widescreen

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by diabolos, Aug 26, 2005.

  1. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    @diabolos, I don't know if you have Super Speedway, but AWE-SOME surround demo material, and now I believe they added the DTS track, which takes that sound to a new level that will highten anyones senses.
    MovieDud
     
  2. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    @MovieDud - most appreciated this.

    DVD - I am in Setup. It has Video and three options.

    4:3 (Letterbox) - 4:3 (Pan&Scan)16:9 (Wide) that is all I have - should I expect to have more than that? It is getting on now it is a Pioneer DV525 - the Gold Version - Multiregion.

    TV - I have a button on the remote that selects various options for the screen.

    Normal (Black Bars on the Right and Left side) - Auto - Full - Natural - Zoom 14:9 - Title-in 14:9 - Zoom 16:9 - Title-in 16:9 and then back to Normal.

    Zoom sucks - you can start to see the black lines between the picture lines - looks naff - I would rather have black bars top and bottom than have that.

    Do we think my DVD is too old? Only other things I have to give really is it is set on the SVHS channel and the NTSC/PAL setting is on Auto - other than that I am at a loss.

    Oh and it is only a 24" - surely the aspect ratio just scales to the screen dimension.

    Note: I missed a bit - as far as I am aware it isn't a HDTV.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2005
  3. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    @buxton, sounds like you have a widescreen television (16X9) since you have a normal mode (where standard images would be in 4:3 with the black or grey bars on the left and right.) If that is the case then the 16X( is the mode you want, if it is not HDTV, but rather widescreen with a 16X9 squeeze mode then you should place the DVD in 16X9 for those inmages, the TV will just have a sharper, stronger black levels, and depth will appear deeper than before. You should be able have the TV in AUTO and when it should adjust based on what the dvd is on (4:3, 4:3 letterbox, or 16X9). I'll try to do a little research and I'll get back to you. Try auto for the TV and dvd select 16X9 for anamorphic (16X9 enhanced) dvds. It will not fill the TV unless the TV is true HDTV 16X9. Try that and let me know.
    MovieDud
     
  4. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    Supertest coming up.

    So you can see what I am looking at - http://www.247electrical.co.uk/epag...227430a020f0205a2/Product/View/SANSYS245BKTRB - the TV is set to "Auto".

    The Abyss - 2.35:1 (Widescreen Version 4:3)- DVD Player set to 16x9 Widescreen. Inch/Inch half top and bottom of Black Lines - picture goes even thinner if set to full). DVD Player set to 4:3 Letter Box - looks exactly the same.

    Spiderman2 - 2.40:1 Anamorphic - DVD set to 16x9 Widescreen. Inch of Black bar top and bottom - Auto and Full give the same picture size ie it doesn't go thinner when set to full as Abyss did.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hopefully those work - not great had to use my phone - then BT it to the PC - the crank the brightness - but you get an idea of what I am on about - this is the opening titles of Spiderman 2. DVD is set to 16x9 Widescreen.

    Do we think my DVD player is old and isn't sending the correct signal to the TV.

    HELP: For some reason they aren't working - as far as I can see they are in the correct format - doesn't seem to be attaching the bit to the URL at the beginning. Can anyone make those work for me - ADMIN I NEED HELP : )

    Ignore - I sorted it - the IMG needs to be img. Holy crap they are BIGGER than I thought - if you want me to shrink them say so. They are small though - 80K so they shouldn't kill the board.



     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2005
  5. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    @buxton, 1st, The Abyss is labeled Anamorphic, but it isn't, which means even on a 16X9 television, the image will have a very large black bar above and below, I actually used Dvd Rebuilder and converted it from a 4:3 letterbox to 16X9 anamorphic widescreen. Pretty cool, anyways, SPiderman 2 is even more of a widescreen than the first spiderman (1.85:1) which filled the entire 16X9 image, while Spidy 2 had a small black bar at the top and bottom. That is normat for a true HDTV 16X9 anamorphic widescreen. I could zoom the rest to fill the entire screen, but I do not like doing that I feel the picture quality and information loss is too much. Based on what you show me the black bars is normal, as long as the TV is a 16X9, if it isn't then the anamorphic image will not be of such a concern. You said you were not sure if the tv is true HDTV, or 16X9. ? are you wanting the black bars to be removed? In the DVD set-up you must set the TV size accordingly...if it is regular 4:3 then that is what you set the DVD, if it is (like in my case) 16X9 HDTV, then I will set the image on the Dvd player as 16X9. buxton, I feel that you might have a widescreen tv with what they call a 16X9 picture mode, not true HDTV 16X9, but it really enhances most anamorphic images. In that case there wouldn't be a significant change (if any) when you set the tv to 16:9. I had a Sony that had this feature. 27 inch tv, but the shape was 4:3, with a 16X9 picture mode. It didn't fill the screen like my anamorphic dvds fill my 55 inch HDTV 16X9. It was better than regular images, but it didn't compare to what I have now. I don't know if I helped or confused you even more. Let me know if you need anything else.
    MovieDud
     
  6. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    The black bars don't bother me as long as they are meant to be thre. I just expected any DVD that was presented in Widescreen to fill the screen - when I got black bars I started to think something was wrong. I also thought Anamorphic meant there was extra info on the left and right sides - that on a standard TV would render the actual picture to thin to be of much use - and on a Wide TV it would look fine.
    I don't understand why when I try different DVD's that have the same Aspect Ratio I get different screen size/black bars.

    If you look at the pics Spiderman 2 would be more than watchable with those bars. Scream is half that size (double the thickness of the black lines) - so do you think my DVD player may be struggling to output the correct ratio on modern DVD's - I asume the Enhanced (Anamorphic) signal for example is coded into the DVD? Or is it that some DVD's (Disks I mean) are just crap or mislabeled - you said Abyss is meant to be Anamorphic and isn't as an example of that.

    I just seem to be having an issue getting my head around 16x9 - 2.35:1 - 4:3 - 2.40:1 etc and how they relate to each other.

    What exactly is the ratio that fills the TV screen. I have what I can only call "Normal" widescreen DVD's - ie no Anamorphic or Enhanced and they fill the screen in Auto or Full mode - on my old standard TV I would have had black bars. I kinda expected ALL Wide DVD's regardless of ratio to do the same.

    I have no idea if this is HDTV - stuff like this tends to take years to take off in the UK - so I will assume it isn't.



     
  7. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    I think a bit of it just clicked. On a HDTV an Anamorphic DVD will fill the screen - full 16x9. On a none HDTV it will have bars and so a 16:9 zoom is required to "emulate" it - but then I get the black gaps in the line scan? That drop the picture detail.

    So if I play ANY Anamorphic DVD it simply will not fill the screen if it is isn't a HDTV? And the bars will adjust based on the aspect ratio.

     
  8. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    Correct, except that when I view 1.85.:1 anamorphic widescreen, the image fills the screen properly. If I view a 2.35:1 there will be black bars on the top and bottom. This is where it gets interesting...progressive scan. My dvd players are progressive scan, progressive scan works with HDTV, progressive scan is considered enhanced definition. The difference is normal dvd is placed on the monitor as 480 interlaced, while progressive is 480 progressive. When I zoom any 480 progressive the picture still looks seamless, fluid, very filmlike, I just feel that there is imformation that is missed. There is no black lines in the image. There are those of whom feel that progressive is not that great, I would differ as I have seen both and chose progressive over interlaced anyday in regards to dvd, in the area of HDTV, the 1080 interlaced HD image is absolutely beautiful, and now thereis 1080 p (progressive). Everyhing comes down to what aspect ratio that the movie was shot in and then how is it mastered. I enjoy when many movies come out as 1.85:1 and they fill the screen, but when they do not I'm still o.k...the picture is breathtaking. No, the Abyss IS NOT in anamorphic even though it is classified as enhanced for widescreens. I just converted it, which I have done with all non-anamorphic dvds, rather than zooming the picture. I believe the picture looks better after I convert, rather than zooming. This kind of hobby can be confusing, but once you undertsand it really is pretty cool. Have a good day!
    MovieDud
     
  9. buxton

    buxton Regular member

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    I found this animated link that explains the whole Widescreen/Anamorphic process - now I get it.

    http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/information/anamorphic.htm

    I also found another link where it mentioned that some DVD players are better than others at doing the Anamorphic bit - my DVD is a good 5 years old - so may explain why I get different results with different films. Maybe it's time to get another player?
     
  10. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    As the person that began this thread, I feel I must point out that 16:9 is 1.78:1 not 1.85:1 as stated in that, otherwise, excellent explination.
     
  11. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    Thanx diabolos, I stand corrected my friend. I enjoy the dialog and the same joy of home theater as you. Have a good day!
    MovieDud
     
  12. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Oh wow, I'm sorry Movie. I was talking about buxton's link not your post friend.
     
  13. MovieDud

    MovieDud Guest

    diabolos, nothing to be sorry about. I'm glad that there are others who like home theater like I do. My wife is glad that I can talk about electronics with someone else beyond her. ha!ha! Have good day friend.
    MovieDud
     
  14. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Another great source of info about what "Widescreen" is and why its cool not annoying.

    The Guide to Film Aspect Ratios...
    http://www.rexer.com/cine/oar.htm

    Thanks go to [bold]dblbogey7[/bold] for providing the original link.

    Ced
     
  15. ChiknLitl

    ChiknLitl Regular member

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    Since this topic is reappearing with some interest, perhaps someone will have a thought or answer to this question/concern. Concerning the "black bars": what about the lines of resolution that you are losing when you watch movies with those black bars? From my understanding; let's say you have a picture that fills roughly 80% of the screen vertically with a 1080p source, you're losing 20% of the available resolution of a 16:9 aspect 1080p display. Correct? I understand that you can "stretch" the movie to fill the screen..you still don't use the full resolution of the display, just stretching that 80%. For example, with HDDVD/BR: when watching movies @ 1080p on a 1080p display (16:9 aspect) is it truely 1080p if you don't use the full resolution of the screen? Could it actually be, let's say...860p? With those extra lines of res going to the "black bars"? Hopefully I have made this post intelligible. Any one have any thoughts or am I just losing it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2006
  16. error5

    error5 Regular member

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    @ChiknLitl:

    I get your point but I tend to agree with others that the black bars are not annoying. There may be vertical pixels wasted but I'd rather see everything that the film director wants me to see. I just ignore the black bars and pay attention to what's in between them. Besides in a darkened room with the soundtrack going full blast I really don't notice them anymore. Besides it's not just HD-DVD and BluRay. You also see this in anamorphic widescreen 2.35:1 DVD's like LOTR, Star Wars etc. If it's not in its Original Aspect Ratio - if it's not in OAR - then I don't want to see it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2006
  17. ChiknLitl

    ChiknLitl Regular member

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    It's not the bars that are annoying me. It's losing resolution, if I've understood it correctly. The fact that HD sources are touting 1080p resolutions while only a portion of the signal is actually occupied by the film makes me feel cheated, lol! Saying that BR and HD DVD are 1080p may be technically correct but the actual movie itself is not at full 1080p resolution (some lines lost to bars), again, if I have understood this correctly. Please, correct me and explain if I've got it screwwed up. I have mentioned this before, I remember a Sony CRT that detected WS DVD's and devoted the entire 480 lines to the actual film, none to the bars. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2006
  18. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    ChiknLitl,

    You are correct for the most part (movies 2.35:1 or wider). Its simply about preserving the artistic vision though. Sure it would be wrong for HD programming to have black bars on an HDTV but movies have black bars for a good reason not to cheat you.

    Widescreen movies that are "Anamorphic" will give you full resolution and proper aspect ratio. You can test this by putting an anamorphic widescreen disc in to your DVD player. If you have a 4:3 SDTV tube set your DVD player to output a 16:9 signal. What you will see is all the resolution with the screen filled up (if the movie is shot at 1.85:1 or narrower). If the movie is shot at 2.35:1 or wider you will have black bars at the top and bottom but they should be very small.

    My point is with the wider movies you still get full resolution even though the black bars are there as long as the movie aspect is anamorphic (the black bars are in the original video stream not created by the player or a black box matte). The narrower movies never have black bars when the aspect is anamorphic. In the case of anamorphic video all the TVs pixels are dedicated to the picture frame!


    If you don't have time to do all that here are some good examples:

    Anamorphic vs. Non-anamorphic (1.85:1 Film):
    http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

    Anamorphic vs. Non-Anamorphic DVD (2.35:1 Aspect Ratio Film):
    http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic235demo.html

    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2006
  19. ChiknLitl

    ChiknLitl Regular member

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    AHHH! I am enlightened and relieved! LOL! I read both links and the article to go along with them. I now have a new question: Looking at the screens in the links they appear to display the same images horizontally (i.e., not cropped), how do they make the image "taller" but not "wider" without the pic looking squished? I get that the original signal is squished then stretched, but if you look at the non-anamorphic screens-it's the same picture. The set didn't get any wider, so how do they get a bigger pic with all of the same info in it? The wonders of science!
     
  20. diabolos

    diabolos Guest

    Which pics (1.85:1 or 2.35:1) of which tv type (4:3 or 16:9)?

    Its all do to the wonders of [bold]Anamorphic[/bold] encoding.

    In the non-anamorphic pic there are black bars inserted by the movie producer (in the case of a non-anamorphic letter box widescreen movie) or DVD player (in the case of an anamorphic widescreen movie configured to play on a 4:3 tv) to force correct aspect ratio. With the anamorphic frame the tv can do what it wants to do with an anamorphic signal. If the tv is "Smart" it will recognize the anamorphic data and shape the frame accordingly. TVs that are not smart will display the data as given, at full resolution but with the wrong aspect ratio.

    I think I answered your question?
    Ced
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2006

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