The Official PC building thread -3rd Edition

True, but the E5200's low fsb, even highly overclocked is like a noose around it's neck. I saw this going from the E4300 to the E6750. The performance was fairly equal in terms of benchmarks, with the exception of memory bandwidth, but in terms of actual work the E6750 was easily 25% or more faster! Memory bandwidth with the E5200 suffers by a good bit too with the E5200, and when it comes to Video encoding or Video editing, it can't compete with the 7750BE. Hell, it can't compete with the $55 45w x2 4850e! For my intended uses the 7750BE for me, is the better deal, and it games pretty well too. Consider also that in benchmarks, it's better than some of the higher end Phenom x4s. Take into account that the 7750BE "is" a Phenom x4 with 2 working cores, and that should start you thinking, why is it better and what happens with the current Phenom x4 when that technology gain is applied to them. Actually, the most bang for the buck you can get right now in terms of Price/Performance/Wattage is the 4850E Athlon x2 and with just a 45W TDP it has tons of thermal overhead. It's pretty easy to get x2 6000+ or more performance out of it, for a fraction of the cost!

I know this is an enthusiast's forum, but even enthusiasts need money to buy all the high tech goodies with, and eventually all this BS that's going on in the US is going to affect most of the economies of the world, and that recession you mention is rapidly descending into a depression. The difference comparing today to just before Christmas 08, can easily be visibly seen! You can't just stop eating completely, so how does one save with no money?!

I know it's hard for you to see and understand because you are so young, but when you are an old guy like me, who's lived through other recessions, what's going on today is something I've never seen the likes of before! Most of the people alive today have never seen anything like it before either! I really feel for you young people, as after people like me are gone. You guys are the ones going to be left holding the bag, and you young people are the ones that will ultimately be left to pick up the pieces! Very scary stuff!

Russ

 

The 7750 only beats the Phenoms in strictly single core tests, which is obvious as it's clocked higher.
As for the E5200 not competing with the 4850e, er, what? I'm going to assume there's been a bit of a misunderstanding there...

 

the E5200 can't compete with the x2 4850e when it comes to video encoding, video editing or Recoding! That's was the comparison I was making.

Russ

 

Not exactly:
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/12/22/athlon-x2-7750-vs-intel-e5200-oc-review/6
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/12/22/athlon-x2-7750-vs-intel-e5200-oc-review/8
The E5200 even bests the 7750 in everything but x264 and Cinebench, and they're equals in the latter.

Also note that despite its low multiplier, they got the E5200 to 4Ghz.

 

Sam,
Perhaps at stock speeds, but I think they have something wrong in their setup, because I've never seen that poor a result in any of the tests of the 4850e I've seen on other sites. My E6750 would eat the E5200 for lunch when it comes to Encoding! Even overclocked to 4GHz, it can't compete with my memory bandwidth or my 1775MHz fsb, and even the x2 4400+ on the 780G I recently built was almost as fast as mine encoding, and was better than the E4300 ever was! I spent a lot of time reviewing the 4850e, and that's one of the reasons I was considering it!

Russ

 

spamual,
You were asking about backwards compatibility, and I found this. Technically speaking it's up to the Motherboard Manufacturers. They could easily extend backwards compatibility all the way back to AM2, with just a bios flash. I doubt that many will make AM2 compatible with either AM2+ or AM3, but it can be done. You just lose the additional features that AM2+ and AM3 provide. I'm sold on the idea that I can drop an AM3 Phenom II in a socket AM2+ MB and still gain everything but DDR3 memory speed, since it supports both memory types. It offers you so many more affordable options, without penalizing you for not having enough money. My personal feeling is that it's going to be a great selling tool with the economy in the toilet! The moral to this story is that you can buy half a loaf, which is better than no loaf at all! LOL!! Here's the full explanation of the backwards compatibility.

Socket-AM2, AM2+ and AM3: Backwards Compatibility

AMD fixed the cache size issue, it fixed the power consumption problem, and we even got higher clock speeds with Phenom II. What I didn’t expect was something more. AMD has always been a manufacturer for the customers. Over the past couple of years the problem has been that their processors haven’t really been desired by consumers, but prior to that the AMD that we know and love designed processors for today’s applications with a minimal number of platform changes between processors.

Phenom II carries AMD’s consumer focused nature to the next level. Today’s Phenom II parts are designed for Socket-AM2+ motherboards. AMD doesn’t qualify any of them for use on Socket-AM2 motherboards, but there’s nothing stopping a motherboard maker from enabling support on a standard AM2 motherboard. You will need a BIOS update.

Next month, AMD will launch the first Socket-AM3 Phenom II processors. The main difference here is that these parts will support DDR3 memory. Oh no, another socket, right? Wrong.

Socket-AM3 Phenom II parts will also work in Socket-AM2+ motherboards, the two are pin-compatible. When in an AM2+ board, these upcoming Phenom II processors will work in DDR2 mode, but when in an AM3 board they will work in DDR3 mode. How cool is that?

This unique flexibility is largely due to the work that was done on the DDR2 and DDR3 specs at JEDEC. The number of signaling pins and the signaling pins themselves between DDR2 and DDR3 don’t actually change on the memory controller side; the main differences are routing and termination at the memory socket side. AMD just needed a physical memory interface on Phenom II that could operate at both 1.8V (DDR2) and 1.5V (DDR3) as well as work with timings for either memory technology. The potential was there to do this on the first Phenom, it just wasn’t ready in time, but with the Socket-AM3 Phenom II processors you’ll be able to do it.

While I’m not sure how practically useful the AM3/AM2+ flexibility will be, I’d rather have it than not. Being able to take one CPU and stick it in two different sockets, each with a different memory technology, and have it just work is the most customer-centric move I’ve ever seen either company make. AMD told me that this plan was in the works before the original Phenom ever launched, somewhere in the 2004 timeframe. AMD was active in JEDEC on making the DDR2 and DDR3 specs similar enough that this one-CPU, two-sockets approach could work.

One of the biggest risks AMD faced when it chose to integrate the memory controller was what would happen if there was a sudden shift in memory technology. With the upcoming Socket-AM3 versions of Phenom II, that risk is completely mitigated by the fact that a single chip can work with either memory technology. It gives OEMs a tremendous amount of flexibility to ship systems with either DDR2 or DDR3 memory depending on which is more cost effective. It also ensures a much smoother transition to DDR3.

The downside for AMD is that because Socket-AM3 Phenom II chips are right around the corner, it makes little sense to buy one of these Socket-AM2+ Phenom II processors - at least not until we know the pricing and availability of the Socket-AM3 versions.

Best Regards,
Russ

 

Russ, I love your explanations. You seem to leave no questions unanswered, Are you a teacher/professor
Well guys/gals If you dont hear from me in the next 24hrs... something went wrong. Back to square one! Reinstalling windows. Giving this windows 7 public beta release a go Heard WAY too many good things about this OS, to not give it a shot. Sooo... is styleXP obsolete now. Given the name, I would think it is. But then, if windows 7 uses the same protcols, file types reg settings... etc???
Having a video/driver issue going on among other things. This just seems the most viable option. Ordinarily I can narrow the problem down, but video is only ONE problem. Any of you peeps give "7" a shot???

 

Other sites - I've not managed to even find a review of the 4850e anywhere else so far... :S Where else have you been looking? (I don't want previews, I want retail reviews)
This is what I read though, the motherboard manufacturers could have made their oldest AM2 boards compatible with the Phenom IIs provide they had strong 95 Amp Vregs, but they chose not to in order to force people to buy new motherboards - more money for them. The C-DS3R series from Gigabyte is a nice means of having both DDR2 and DDR3 functionality, but until there are 4GB DDR3 modules available, they're limited to 4GB of memory. Not a huge issue, but some people like more.
The AM2+/AM3 dual memory support option illustrates another of AMD's pros, which is engineering cool stuff, without any real reason for doing it, other than showing superior R&D.


Omegaman: Very tempted to do it when I collect my SSD. Going to leave vista on my 7200rpm HDD, but probably going to partition the SSD into two halves for XP and 7. I think 30GB should just about cover both right?

 

I dont doubt that for a minute, a millisecond, a nanosecond, LOL. Sounds like business tactics! I would think 30gb to be enough. Though ive never actually built my own partition. Havnt really felt the need to do so. I have however built a backup DVD with iso's that I use ALCOHOL to mount and install. Thats the ownly recovery I need Anything super important goes to either verbatims, or a very trusty western digital drive. Im not gonna mention its name though. Lately when I bless certain technologies, I HEXX it!!! I swear my fingers and mouth are cursed, LOL

 

Sam, You're absolutely right! Reviews for both the 4850e and the 5050e are scarce. I posted one of them a while back that was very well done by an individual in another forum. He went at it in a determined fashion to leave no stone unturned! I think he used every test program in the world, but it was an excellent test article and he made no attempt to sway anything. I liked his genuine, "What you sees, is what you Gets" attitude. Long, but very informative!

As far as the engineering cool stuff for no good reason, I think they had a very good reason judging by looking at all the options all this cool stuff now provides the consumer with, based on what they can afford, while still giving them a good sized slice of the pie! Intel, with i7 can't do that! You have to buy "The Unholy Trio", or nothing! Since you can only put an i7 in a MB with a new socket, you have to have all three of the Trio, or you have nothing. It leaves AMD in a very good marketing and Sales position, at just the right time! Well Done AMD!
The only thing they've done wrong lately, is commit Blasphemy! They actually had Phenon IIs for sale on time, in spite of a snafu with the US Customs! Since both Intel and AMD share the Patent for vaporware, that is blasphemy!

Russ

EDIT: Just type "AMD 4850e reviews" into Google Search, and you will find lots of reviews!

JRS

 

It's not really fair to keep dragging the i7 into this, at least Intel offer a product with that level of performance, as far as AMD's concerned, you don't even get the option. All of Intel's CPUs that compare with The Phenoms and Phenom IIs use the same socket too, and again, only the older boards require BIOS flashes. On top of this, the Core 2 Quads are more power efficient, and also cheaper. The Phenom II 940 is nearly £240 in the UK, the most expensive AMD CPU since the first AM2 Athlon X2s more than two years ago. £20 more earns you a Q9550 which will handily beat it. What's more, I am unsure if this will stick around, but OEM, a Q9450, the Phenom II 940's main rival can be had for £205, more than £30 less. Combine the fact that good motherboards for the Core 2 Quads can still be had for £65-£80, AMD 790 chipset boards start at a slightly higher price than that. Since both share DDR2 memory, that actually renders the Core 2 platform cheaper. Interesting, AMD have finally produced a good CPU, but they have priced it so high that they have still fallen behind on the value for money front. The complete opposite of before, AMD CPUs may have been crap back then, but at least they were good value!

 

Sam,
I agree with you again, but almost all testing I've seen has included i7 in their tests. It's the only reason I feel compelled as everybody brings it up. The Yorkfields may be the cheaper platform, but there are lots of very happy AMD fans here who are starting to smile more and more.! The new Phenom II looks good, and AM3 is right around the corner. one of the reviews I posted took a Phenom II 940 to 3.8gHz on air on a Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H! Water should get you past 4.0GHz Wonder what tricks the Phenom II AM3 has up it's sleeve. Mid to mid-high looks like it going to get much more competitive in the not too distant future! I've heard some rumors! That's all I can say for now!

I can also buy a less expensive 790G motherboard and come out for around the same price, and not lose the important features of AM2+, but the MB to have for AM2+ is the Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H. Not because I'm a fan but because every site that has tested the 940 and 920 on it, says it's the best. Even PC Magazine who rarely boosts anything says so! They said "this is the board to have for 790X"! No one else is getting to 3.8GHz on air! Much more competitive with the Yorkfields than say 3.5-3.6GHz! So far I've seen reviews of 790Gs using Asus, MSI and BioStar, and the DS4H beats them all! Eventually I'll be smiling a lot too. I'm waiting for AM3, and HKMG low watt technology. I want to learn with the x2 7750, because I'll have all the features of the 790G, so I can learn pretty much everything I'll need to know So I'll be ready for that AM3!

Russ

 

Indeed, though the DS4H costs a significant £124. The EP45-UD3R, a board proven to get Core 2 Quads to 3.7 and beyond is only £108. Also consider that at 3.8Ghz the Phenom II 940 is only as fast as a 3.35-3.40Ghz Core 2 Quad at best, and that sort of speed can be achieved on most Yorkfields at stock voltage, they don't even need a proper overclocking board, a cheap £60 EP43-S3L would suffice.
Not trying to consistently rain on your or AMD's parade, but when there's nothing but hype and excitement in your posts, someone has to be the voice of reason
It's good, AMD have finally produced a decent Quad core processor, but nonetheless, just because they have doesn't mean it's all we should buy.

Creaky, Speedstep seems have two names, that, and C1E. Any references to either should be disabled.

 

yeah moving from my p35 asus p5k-e to my p45 asus maximus ii formula i didnt need to reinstall vista, but as a rule mobo change = reinstall for me, so i did

 

In the setup, I turn off EIST and C1E and leave on TM2 in the Advanced BIOS Features to protect the CPU from meltdown! C1E being turned on changes the multiplier lower when it idles, and comes back up to speed the minute you put a load on it! If you make those changes I suggest in the setup, it should read correctly!

Russ

 

creaky you might want to try that F9 bios. thats what i had to do with my board when i got it. had to flash to the F9. once that was done all my problems went away. i have the GA-EP45-DS3R. it had the F6 bios also. i went right to the F0 bios and problem solved.

edit for spelling/grammar as GM would say